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A chilling effect on free speech. Real alternatives to paypal and credit cards need to enter the market. It sadly looks like my favorite hope is still not rea

A chilling effect on free speech. Real alternatives to paypal and credit cards need to enter the market. It sadly looks like my favorite hope is still not ready, but I am hopeful that this is due to slow and careful development that will lead to a stable long term outcome. https://taler.net/en/faq.html https://taler.net/en/faq.html

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Stripe won't touch adult content, I've tried (chargeback ratio is very high, I don't blame them). Very hard to find processors who will work with adult content of any sort. The real problem is that person to person money transfers shouldn't be prohibited unless by law. Perhaps Pornhub, in the US at least, could use something like Zelle to mediate transfers between patrons and performers (using their bank account to make Zelle requests, and then distributing that out to performers with Zelle). At least until the Fed gets their ACH modernization act together and we get near real time payments.
- thu2111 7y ago
  I think this is a US thing. I've tried to do chargebacks before in Europe because a website wouldn't stop billing me, and was told the only thing I could do is cut up the card and get issued a new one.
  - redblacktree 7y ago
    Chargebacks happen after the fact; they won't prevent the same merchant from charging you again in the future. (You can, of course, issue a chargeback on those payments as well)
    - robinson-wall 7y ago
      Your card issuer (at least in the UK) is obligated to block recurring payments from a particular merchant if you request it https://www.fca.org.uk/news/news-stories/continuous-payment-authorities-it-your-right-cancel https://www.fca.org.uk/news/news-stories/continuous-payment-...
  - viraptor 7y ago
    Which country/processor? This is normally regulated and there are explicit processes around chargebacks. It's surprising/suspicious that you'd ever be refused one.
    - thu2111 7y ago
      Switzerland, UBS card.
  - d1zzy 7y ago
    It's a credit card thing (which arguably are much more common in the US).
  - pcr0 7y ago
    Getting a new card doesn't necessarily stop recurring bills as trusted merchants can use features like Visa Account Updater or Mastercard Automatic Billing Updater. Though in practice, these trusted merchants usually have easy cancellation flows.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
  US PayPal is not a bank. They don't actually perform money transfers between individuals. You pay PayPal and they disburse it to your designee. There are two transactions involved.
  - resoluteteeth 7y ago
    > US PayPal is not a bank True > They don't actually perform money transfers between individuals. It is regulated as some sort of money transmitter in every state: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/licenses https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/licenses
  - juped 7y ago
    It's weird when people think this sort of reasoning would ever impress a regulator or judge.
ur-whale 7y ago
> Real alternatives to paypal and credit cards need to enter the market. They already have. They're called cryptos. [edit]: judging by the downvotes, looks like the sheep instinct is strong on HN
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  Cryptocoins aren't practical enough (yet?) to rely on completely for stuff like this. If the flow has any more friction than "payer enters their credit card info once, then agrees to send a value; payee receives it in their bank account at a set time and can immediately use it to buy groceries", it's going to seriously affect some people's incomes. I'm not downvoting you for that, FYI, but I am downvoting you for the smug edit.
  - rvz 7y ago
    > Cryptocoins aren't practical enough (yet?) to rely on completely for stuff like this. Really? I can understand "Bitcoin" as one of many cryptocurrencies that are unstable and very slow for these payments, but some cryptocurrencies are faster and cheaper than others and are suitable for this use-case. There are many ways to pay nowadays: 1. Scan a QR Code to send cryptocurrencies to the payee. 2. Type the address of the recipient into the form / app and send the amount. 3. Coinbase Card number / crypto address. No. (3) compliments the current fiat system and also works like a debit card, with several features: It allows the user to switch between multiple currencies in their Coinbase Card; not just Bitcoin. They can also withdraw from an ATM and receive its fiat currency and the card is compatible with direct debits. Depending on the cryptocurrency you use to send them over to another user, cryptocurrencies like Stellar and Ripple are much suitable for this and can be withdrawn into cash and can be sent faster than Bitcoin. No need for PayPal.
    - Mirioron 7y ago
      The problem is that those systems are immature. Would you be willing to rely on them to earn your living, especially if you live in a poor country?
    - 7y ago
rvz 7y ago
> A chilling effect on free speech. Real alternatives to paypal and credit cards need to enter the market. This would have been a huge problem in 2012, Now there are realistic solutions to avoid this. Just pay by cryptocurrencies on to a Coinbase Card and you can withdraw the cash and pay anonymously. Job done.
- Mirioron 7y ago
  Which is a huge hassle in a lot of places in the world, especially due to how cryptocurrencies are treated.
- dessant 7y ago
  I've just discovered Coinbase Commerce [1], it's an awesome way to quickly start accepting cryptocurrencies, they offer hosted payment pages, payment buttons, webhooks, everything you want. It took me a couple of minutes to sign up and configure a hosted payment page to start accepting donations for my projects. It's rare that I'm excited about a service, but this one appears to come with no strings attached, the wallet is even generated on the client-side. [1] https://commerce.coinbase.com https://commerce.coinbase.com
  - 0xdeadb00f 7y ago
    This sounds like an advertisement.
    - dessant 7y ago
      It really isn't, you should check my profile. I have discovered the service shortly before posting, the parent mentioned Coinbase, and I thought it would be helpful to share this with others. People are sometimes genuinely excited about free services that don't exist solely to exploit them in some way.
      - netsharc 7y ago
        > I have discovered the service shortly before posting, > it's an awesome way to quickly start accepting cryptocurrencies. So do you regularly endorse things you just shortly discovered?
lazzlazzlazz 7y ago
There's almost no reason payment couldn't be handled with a reputable, totally decentralized stablecoin like Dai. The solutions exist, but they need to be socialized and streamlined. EDIT: Would love some reasoning around downvotes.
- themagician 7y ago
  The only crypto that will ever matter is one fully endorsed by banks. At the end of the day you can't spend cryptocurrencies. When Walmart accepts a cryptocurrency then maybe people will consider actually using it. Paying people in some weird unheard of stable coin doesn't help anyone if it can't be easily converted into real currency that people use and accept.
  - lazzlazzlazz 7y ago
    Converting these popular stable coins into dollars is as trivial as initiating a bank transfer, though.
grzte 7y ago
Free speech? Corporations can set their own rules!!! The same thing they say to stop the evil nazees.
miohtama 7y ago
There are alternatives. Even obvious ones like wire transfers (ACH, SEPA) which have less fraud due to enforced two-factor and better online banking cyber security. PayPal, on the other hand, is free game after you infect a Windows PC with any malware. The problem is that your CC number is both username and password. Cardsters are looking ways to convert soft credit card money to something without chargebacks. These services are fraud and money laundering magnets. Think it as a same as publishing fake eBooks on Amazon and then sell them to launder your income clean. https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/26/crooks-launder-money-using-real-and-fake-amazon-ebooks/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/26/crooks-launder-money-using...
- allset_ 7y ago
  > enforced two-factor In what world do wire transfers require 2FA?
  - purerandomness 7y ago
    The old world. Europe.
  - miohtama 7y ago
    In any sane world. Nowadays also mandated by the law in the EU.
- abvdasker 7y ago
  This is a real opportunity for the new cohort of challenger banks like the Cash App, Chime, N26 and Monzo. You could probably win a lot of businesses and their customers by agreeing to process payments for businesses that PayPal won't. Combine that with the fact that the Venmo-like P2P payments these startups provide are fast and free and you've got another reason for merchants to switch.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jeltz 7y ago
  3D Secure solves part of this problem. But there are two issues with it (1) some companies like PayPal have forced banks to make an exception for them (2) your credit card number can still be used in other contexts but much less conveniently than it used to be able to.
dahart 7y ago
> A chilling effect on free speech. It will have a chilling effect on Pornhub for sure, but porn and commerce speech are already both separately and specifically quite limited in their free speech protections in the U.S. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_ex... Put them together and it might be difficult to demonstrate that there was much expectation of free speech in this case in the first place.

toomuchtodo 7y ago

Stripe won't touch adult content, I've tried (chargeback ratio is very high, I don't blame them). Very hard to find processors who will work with adult content of any sort. The real problem is that person to person money transfers shouldn't be prohibited unless by law. Perhaps Pornhub, in the US at least, could use something like Zelle to mediate transfers between patrons and performers (using their bank account to make Zelle requests, and then distributing that out to performers with Zelle). At least until the Fed gets their ACH modernization act together and we get near real time payments.

thu2111 7y ago
I think this is a US thing. I've tried to do chargebacks before in Europe because a website wouldn't stop billing me, and was told the only thing I could do is cut up the card and get issued a new one.
- redblacktree 7y ago
  Chargebacks happen after the fact; they won't prevent the same merchant from charging you again in the future. (You can, of course, issue a chargeback on those payments as well)
  - robinson-wall 7y ago
    Your card issuer (at least in the UK) is obligated to block recurring payments from a particular merchant if you request it https://www.fca.org.uk/news/news-stories/continuous-payment-authorities-it-your-right-cancel https://www.fca.org.uk/news/news-stories/continuous-payment-...
- viraptor 7y ago
  Which country/processor? This is normally regulated and there are explicit processes around chargebacks. It's surprising/suspicious that you'd ever be refused one.
  - thu2111 7y ago
    Switzerland, UBS card.
- d1zzy 7y ago
  It's a credit card thing (which arguably are much more common in the US).
- pcr0 7y ago
  Getting a new card doesn't necessarily stop recurring bills as trusted merchants can use features like Visa Account Updater or Mastercard Automatic Billing Updater. Though in practice, these trusted merchants usually have easy cancellation flows.
kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
US PayPal is not a bank. They don't actually perform money transfers between individuals. You pay PayPal and they disburse it to your designee. There are two transactions involved.
- resoluteteeth 7y ago
  > US PayPal is not a bank True > They don't actually perform money transfers between individuals. It is regulated as some sort of money transmitter in every state: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/licenses https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/licenses
- juped 7y ago
  It's weird when people think this sort of reasoning would ever impress a regulator or judge.

ur-whale 7y ago

> Real alternatives to paypal and credit cards need to enter the market. They already have. They're called cryptos. [edit]: judging by the downvotes, looks like the sheep instinct is strong on HN

PhasmaFelis 7y ago
Cryptocoins aren't practical enough (yet?) to rely on completely for stuff like this. If the flow has any more friction than "payer enters their credit card info once, then agrees to send a value; payee receives it in their bank account at a set time and can immediately use it to buy groceries", it's going to seriously affect some people's incomes. I'm not downvoting you for that, FYI, but I am downvoting you for the smug edit.
- rvz 7y ago
  > Cryptocoins aren't practical enough (yet?) to rely on completely for stuff like this. Really? I can understand "Bitcoin" as one of many cryptocurrencies that are unstable and very slow for these payments, but some cryptocurrencies are faster and cheaper than others and are suitable for this use-case. There are many ways to pay nowadays: 1. Scan a QR Code to send cryptocurrencies to the payee. 2. Type the address of the recipient into the form / app and send the amount. 3. Coinbase Card number / crypto address. No. (3) compliments the current fiat system and also works like a debit card, with several features: It allows the user to switch between multiple currencies in their Coinbase Card; not just Bitcoin. They can also withdraw from an ATM and receive its fiat currency and the card is compatible with direct debits. Depending on the cryptocurrency you use to send them over to another user, cryptocurrencies like Stellar and Ripple are much suitable for this and can be withdrawn into cash and can be sent faster than Bitcoin. No need for PayPal.
  - Mirioron 7y ago
    The problem is that those systems are immature. Would you be willing to rely on them to earn your living, especially if you live in a poor country?
  - 7y ago

rvz 7y ago

> A chilling effect on free speech. Real alternatives to paypal and credit cards need to enter the market. This would have been a huge problem in 2012, Now there are realistic solutions to avoid this. Just pay by cryptocurrencies on to a Coinbase Card and you can withdraw the cash and pay anonymously. Job done.

Mirioron 7y ago
Which is a huge hassle in a lot of places in the world, especially due to how cryptocurrencies are treated.
dessant 7y ago
I've just discovered Coinbase Commerce [1], it's an awesome way to quickly start accepting cryptocurrencies, they offer hosted payment pages, payment buttons, webhooks, everything you want. It took me a couple of minutes to sign up and configure a hosted payment page to start accepting donations for my projects. It's rare that I'm excited about a service, but this one appears to come with no strings attached, the wallet is even generated on the client-side. [1] https://commerce.coinbase.com https://commerce.coinbase.com
- 0xdeadb00f 7y ago
  This sounds like an advertisement.
  - dessant 7y ago
    It really isn't, you should check my profile. I have discovered the service shortly before posting, the parent mentioned Coinbase, and I thought it would be helpful to share this with others. People are sometimes genuinely excited about free services that don't exist solely to exploit them in some way.
    - netsharc 7y ago
      > I have discovered the service shortly before posting, > it's an awesome way to quickly start accepting cryptocurrencies. So do you regularly endorse things you just shortly discovered?

lazzlazzlazz 7y ago

There's almost no reason payment couldn't be handled with a reputable, totally decentralized stablecoin like Dai. The solutions exist, but they need to be socialized and streamlined. EDIT: Would love some reasoning around downvotes.

themagician 7y ago
The only crypto that will ever matter is one fully endorsed by banks. At the end of the day you can't spend cryptocurrencies. When Walmart accepts a cryptocurrency then maybe people will consider actually using it. Paying people in some weird unheard of stable coin doesn't help anyone if it can't be easily converted into real currency that people use and accept.
- lazzlazzlazz 7y ago
  Converting these popular stable coins into dollars is as trivial as initiating a bank transfer, though.

grzte 7y ago

Free speech? Corporations can set their own rules!!! The same thing they say to stop the evil nazees.

miohtama 7y ago

There are alternatives. Even obvious ones like wire transfers (ACH, SEPA) which have less fraud due to enforced two-factor and better online banking cyber security. PayPal, on the other hand, is free game after you infect a Windows PC with any malware. The problem is that your CC number is both username and password. Cardsters are looking ways to convert soft credit card money to something without chargebacks. These services are fraud and money laundering magnets. Think it as a same as publishing fake eBooks on Amazon and then sell them to launder your income clean. https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/26/crooks-launder-money-using-real-and-fake-amazon-ebooks/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/26/crooks-launder-money-using...

allset_ 7y ago
> enforced two-factor In what world do wire transfers require 2FA?
- purerandomness 7y ago
  The old world. Europe.
- miohtama 7y ago
  In any sane world. Nowadays also mandated by the law in the EU.
abvdasker 7y ago
This is a real opportunity for the new cohort of challenger banks like the Cash App, Chime, N26 and Monzo. You could probably win a lot of businesses and their customers by agreeing to process payments for businesses that PayPal won't. Combine that with the fact that the Venmo-like P2P payments these startups provide are fast and free and you've got another reason for merchants to switch.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jeltz 7y ago
3D Secure solves part of this problem. But there are two issues with it (1) some companies like PayPal have forced banks to make an exception for them (2) your credit card number can still be used in other contexts but much less conveniently than it used to be able to.

dahart 7y ago

> A chilling effect on free speech. It will have a chilling effect on Pornhub for sure, but porn and commerce speech are already both separately and specifically quite limited in their free speech protections in the U.S. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_ex... Put them together and it might be difficult to demonstrate that there was much expectation of free speech in this case in the first place.