15 ms·

Give David a break. First of all, he's a very nice guy. Secondly, he's not running a corner greengrocer, he's running a site that's growing supernaturally fast

by spolsky 16y ago

Give David a break. First of all, he's a very nice guy. Secondly, he's not running a corner greengrocer, he's running a site that's growing supernaturally fast and which has completely, utterly displaced myspace as the place where high school kids share. Tumblr has five MILLION visitors every single day, almost none of whom pay a dime. You can't run a service like that the same way you run an enterprise software company. You can't have a PR team and a customer service department that makes sure everybody gets a nice reply. When they have outages caused by growing pains (something which nobody here begrudges them), they get metric TONS of angry email from thousands of narcissistic users who can't IMAGINE that ANYONE ELSE is suffering from the same outage. You know what? David Karp doesn't like Tumblr being down any more than you do. David Karp didn't bring Tumblr down to piss you off. Self righteous, whiny blog posts demanding that David Karp is not capable of running Tumblr because he responded to an email in a fashion that you don't find sufficiently grovelling are, frankly, ridiculous, and reflect more poorly on the whiners than on Tumblr or David.

danielpunkass 16y ago
Joel, David has a great problem: he's extremely successful and facing the scrutiny of people who think he should be more perfect than he is. The answer to this problem is never to tell people to "go away." The job is challenging, as you know. You work your ass off, for years. Finally you get something out there, and if you're lucky, people love it. That's where the modesty has to kick in. Big time. When you're even a little bit successful, you learn that customers are not bar chums who you punch in the shoulder and laugh when they say something that offends you. You adopt an unusually elevated posture. "Yes, I see what you mean. I probably could have handled that better." I know you're good at this Joel, so don't hold your friend to a lower standard.
MortenK 16y ago
There's a big difference between "sufficiently grovelling" and "go away".
samengland 16y ago
MySpace didn't have these issues though - nor did Twitter (to this extent). It's also a relatively straight forward blogging platform though - it's not particularly hard to figure out how to allocate resources despite exponential growth. The fact is - responding to issues in such a manner might not affect the outlook of Tumblr immediately - but the fact that he does respond to emails like this might be a representation of his overall attitude towards running the site - one which might contribute to the ultimate downfall of the service.
- steveklabnik 16y ago
  > it's not particularly hard to figure out how to allocate resources despite exponential growth. http://37signals.com/svn/archives2/revealing_hidden_assumptions_in_estimation.php http://37signals.com/svn/archives2/revealing_hidden_assumpti...
- Maxious 16y ago
  Does nobody remember LiveJournal? The site with the community that was willing to look past growing pains and security exploits to communicate on their own terms? The "straight forward blogging platform" that created a need for memcached amongst other scaling tools? Read the history of LJ's architecture from 1 server to hundreds: http://www.danga.com/words/2007_06_usenix/usenix.pdf http://www.danga.com/words/2007_06_usenix/usenix.pdf
- clojurerocks 16y ago
  What do yo mean Myspace and Twitter didnt have these issues? One of the reasons Facebook gained prominents is that in 2005 or so Myspace was down CONSTANTLY. I mean it was never up. They blamed it on coldfusion at the time and eventually moved the site over to Asp.net. Twitter also barely worked because the whole web services architecture was only taking shape so it was designed like an old cms. Putting that aside this persons response was unprofessional to say the least. He needs to publicly apologize to all of his users and start hiring people who can fix the site. To tell people to fuck off is immature and absolutely ridiculous. Especially when you have so much VC money at your disposal. When Twitter first got funding they spend alot of it on engineering. They went from being on just a few servers which was one of the reasons it was down all of the time. To hundreds of servers to deal with the load. It seems like this guy now thinks he can keep the money to himself and not spend anything expect on pr. Reminds of Friendster actually.
rriepe 16y ago
I heard from an article that I read recently that he wasn't, in fact, a nice guy. Maybe you had different experiences with him, but now most people who have read about him just think he's some 24-year-old punk trying to be Steve Jobs. That's just how this stuff works. Startup, LLC and HugeCorp, Inc. alike can't afford bad PR like this. It was an incredibly stupid move on David's part and he should patch this up as quickly as possible.
- spolsky 16y ago
  I'm pretty sure that Tumblr can certainly afford bad PR like this. Show me an example of a company that was, actually, hurt by something like this. One example, please. Every high school kid in New York uses Tumblr every minute of every day. None of them even know who David is, and those that do, revere him.
  - rriepe 16y ago
    And Steve Jobs could kick a puppy as his next "one more thing." It doesn't mean shareholders would be happy about it. "We can afford it" is a terrible response to bad PR. He needs to act quickly and make this right. Apologize. Give the guy a free account or something. Everything is (mostly) better. I'm convinced that half of a PR person's work is convincing others to get over themselves.
    - glesperance 16y ago
      If someone -- or any company for the matter -- can afford or not bad PR is way beyond the point. The thing is : you usersy might be wrong,or might be right ; but the point is more that users are your even more than your whole business, giving them a good experience is your ultimate goal ; not just selling them a microblogging app. In my opinion, comparison to steve jobs / apple here are extremely irrelevant ; yes, steve jobs might have earned the right to be obnoxious to bad clients, but the point is that apple as a company doesn't. For one thing, its because their marketing goes hand in hand with their excellent customer service that this company is successful. Not because one compensate for the other. Its really a shame that somebody can treat its user base like that.
idlewords 16y ago
There was nothing self-righteous or whiny about the blog post or the original email. Both contained substantive and completely reasonable criticisms to which you have responded with name-calling and CAPS LOCK.
- vog 16y ago
  I agree that the article was neither self-righteous nor whiny. However, the quoted email definitely was. (So I guess spolsky referred mostly to that one, not just the article around it.)
  - notahacker 16y ago
    I thought the original email was a lot less deserving of a flippant response than the hatchet job blog post.
nhangen 16y ago
The guy sent an honest and respectful email asking for help...I don't think his email was unreasonable. What was unreasonable was the "go away" line in David's response. That is simply juvenile and more importantly, completely unnecessary.
- iPadDeveloper 16y ago
  Exactly. It's funny that some people are 'blaming the customer' for loving a service so much that he gets upset when the people who run it act like this. Not only can they not be trusted to run the service, but they act unprofessional when you complain. Customers complain, get over it. Learn to deal with it constructively. David's response is not constructive and William's feedback is very valuable. Period.
arondeparon 16y ago
I don't think anyone is saying David chuckles in the sight of recent outages. The email which was sent does not seem to be a personal attack on David's character and - apart from some random comments - nobody seems to speak bad of David himself. I'm a Tumblr user and will keep using it for the very reason that the service is simply growing too fast for them to keep up at the moment, but in the end I believe it will stabilize. That being said, a response like that is just utter crap. (Sidenote: so far, I have seen a copy/paste of the entire message (?) that was supposably sent to Tumblr, but only excerpts of the reply that was received) Replying in a normal manner to someone that sends a normal e-mail is not something that is left to be done for PR teams and customer service departments. It really is not that hard. We all say stuff that comes out wrong and there is no need to blow it out of proportion. Seeing that is has already done that, it would probably be a good display of character to set things straight, even if there seems to be nothing to gain from it. As far as the article is concerned: I believe it could have been written a lot better. Catchphrases like "Could David Karp be the downfall of Tumblr?" are inappropriate and belong in gossip-magazines. The number of claims and experiences on which this article is based (or at least, references) is too low to make it believable and the tone of the article ("Tumblr has been ignoring complaints routinely for the past year whilst Karp apparently indulges in the money he gains from funding") does not really stand out as objective to me.
kapitti 16y ago
> You can't have a PR team and a customer service department that makes sure everybody gets a nice reply. Do you really need a PR/CS team to ensure people get a nice reply? Shouldn't that just be something that a /very nice guy/ would accomplish naturally?
rokhayakebe 16y ago
Why give him a break? He is a public CEO. If he does well the internet will talk about it. If he does otherwise, well, he can expect the internet to talk about it too. Nobody gives a care if David is the coolest thing on his/your block. There is not one valid reason to tell a customer to "Please go away". You should just take the bullet, apologize for not meeting their expectation and maybe offer your point of view. If the customer is being rude, you have the right to not answer.
- SoftwareMaven 16y ago
  There are definitely times when you should tell a customer to go away. Any time a customer is seriously diverting you from where you need to be as a business, you have a potential time to say "find somebody else." However, this customer was complaining about the core business, not some diversion. Even if he was diverting, there are far more appropriate ways to say good-bye. It sounds to me like David heard once "don't keep customers who aren't profitable" but never internalized what that really means.
- justin 16y ago
  Yes, there is. You should tell customers to go away when they cost you more than they earn you. Costs come in many forms, both monetary and emotional. If dealing with specific complaining users damages team morale, then perhaps the company should consider whether those few users are worth it. Further, I doubt very much that bad PR like this affects Tumblr. 1) The vast majority of Tumblr users will never hear about this, 2) The ones that do will probably decide whether to continue using the service based on whether or not Tumblr actually solves their downtime problems on an ongoing basis.
  - rokhayakebe 16y ago
    There is a difference between "We will understand it if you choose to go with a different company. However you should know and we are working hard at resolving these issues." and "... Please go Away." Seriously, it is not as if the guy insulted them.
    - 16y ago
tuckbuck 16y ago
so what if Karp is a nice guy? it is not about whether he is nice guy or not,but how customers (free & paying) are treated. Are you saying that since millions of customers are getting a free service ("five MILLION visitors every single day, almost none of whom pay a dime.") and so should expect a lower level of service ? it clearly shows the frustration on Karp's part and that he is not able to handle the pressures.
jonpaul 16y ago
Joel: At the risk of sounding trollish, you read like that Chris Crocker guy of "Leave Brittney Alone" YouTube fame. 1) He's a CEO. He'd better have thick skin to be one. 2) Most of your points are dead on correct. HOWEVER, I've repeatedly begged for a premium offering. I realize that that doesn't seem to be their monetization strategy, so maybe I should look elsewhere if I value my blog so much. Regardless, the guy is a CEO. He better be able to deal with it. I sincerely hope that this comment doesn't make me sound too insensitive, just a little bit. But his problem is a good one to have, and I would love to have it.

by spolsky 16y ago

danielpunkass 16y ago

Joel, David has a great problem: he's extremely successful and facing the scrutiny of people who think he should be more perfect than he is. The answer to this problem is never to tell people to "go away." The job is challenging, as you know. You work your ass off, for years. Finally you get something out there, and if you're lucky, people love it. That's where the modesty has to kick in. Big time. When you're even a little bit successful, you learn that customers are not bar chums who you punch in the shoulder and laugh when they say something that offends you. You adopt an unusually elevated posture. "Yes, I see what you mean. I probably could have handled that better." I know you're good at this Joel, so don't hold your friend to a lower standard.

MortenK 16y ago

There's a big difference between "sufficiently grovelling" and "go away".

samengland 16y ago

MySpace didn't have these issues though - nor did Twitter (to this extent). It's also a relatively straight forward blogging platform though - it's not particularly hard to figure out how to allocate resources despite exponential growth. The fact is - responding to issues in such a manner might not affect the outlook of Tumblr immediately - but the fact that he does respond to emails like this might be a representation of his overall attitude towards running the site - one which might contribute to the ultimate downfall of the service.

steveklabnik 16y ago
> it's not particularly hard to figure out how to allocate resources despite exponential growth. http://37signals.com/svn/archives2/revealing_hidden_assumptions_in_estimation.php http://37signals.com/svn/archives2/revealing_hidden_assumpti...
Maxious 16y ago
Does nobody remember LiveJournal? The site with the community that was willing to look past growing pains and security exploits to communicate on their own terms? The "straight forward blogging platform" that created a need for memcached amongst other scaling tools? Read the history of LJ's architecture from 1 server to hundreds: http://www.danga.com/words/2007_06_usenix/usenix.pdf http://www.danga.com/words/2007_06_usenix/usenix.pdf
clojurerocks 16y ago
What do yo mean Myspace and Twitter didnt have these issues? One of the reasons Facebook gained prominents is that in 2005 or so Myspace was down CONSTANTLY. I mean it was never up. They blamed it on coldfusion at the time and eventually moved the site over to Asp.net. Twitter also barely worked because the whole web services architecture was only taking shape so it was designed like an old cms. Putting that aside this persons response was unprofessional to say the least. He needs to publicly apologize to all of his users and start hiring people who can fix the site. To tell people to fuck off is immature and absolutely ridiculous. Especially when you have so much VC money at your disposal. When Twitter first got funding they spend alot of it on engineering. They went from being on just a few servers which was one of the reasons it was down all of the time. To hundreds of servers to deal with the load. It seems like this guy now thinks he can keep the money to himself and not spend anything expect on pr. Reminds of Friendster actually.

rriepe 16y ago

I heard from an article that I read recently that he wasn't, in fact, a nice guy. Maybe you had different experiences with him, but now most people who have read about him just think he's some 24-year-old punk trying to be Steve Jobs. That's just how this stuff works. Startup, LLC and HugeCorp, Inc. alike can't afford bad PR like this. It was an incredibly stupid move on David's part and he should patch this up as quickly as possible.

spolsky 16y ago
I'm pretty sure that Tumblr can certainly afford bad PR like this. Show me an example of a company that was, actually, hurt by something like this. One example, please. Every high school kid in New York uses Tumblr every minute of every day. None of them even know who David is, and those that do, revere him.
- rriepe 16y ago
  And Steve Jobs could kick a puppy as his next "one more thing." It doesn't mean shareholders would be happy about it. "We can afford it" is a terrible response to bad PR. He needs to act quickly and make this right. Apologize. Give the guy a free account or something. Everything is (mostly) better. I'm convinced that half of a PR person's work is convincing others to get over themselves.
  - glesperance 16y ago
    If someone -- or any company for the matter -- can afford or not bad PR is way beyond the point. The thing is : you usersy might be wrong,or might be right ; but the point is more that users are your even more than your whole business, giving them a good experience is your ultimate goal ; not just selling them a microblogging app. In my opinion, comparison to steve jobs / apple here are extremely irrelevant ; yes, steve jobs might have earned the right to be obnoxious to bad clients, but the point is that apple as a company doesn't. For one thing, its because their marketing goes hand in hand with their excellent customer service that this company is successful. Not because one compensate for the other. Its really a shame that somebody can treat its user base like that.

idlewords 16y ago

There was nothing self-righteous or whiny about the blog post or the original email. Both contained substantive and completely reasonable criticisms to which you have responded with name-calling and CAPS LOCK.

vog 16y ago
I agree that the article was neither self-righteous nor whiny. However, the quoted email definitely was. (So I guess spolsky referred mostly to that one, not just the article around it.)
- notahacker 16y ago
  I thought the original email was a lot less deserving of a flippant response than the hatchet job blog post.

nhangen 16y ago

The guy sent an honest and respectful email asking for help...I don't think his email was unreasonable. What was unreasonable was the "go away" line in David's response. That is simply juvenile and more importantly, completely unnecessary.

iPadDeveloper 16y ago
Exactly. It's funny that some people are 'blaming the customer' for loving a service so much that he gets upset when the people who run it act like this. Not only can they not be trusted to run the service, but they act unprofessional when you complain. Customers complain, get over it. Learn to deal with it constructively. David's response is not constructive and William's feedback is very valuable. Period.

arondeparon 16y ago

I don't think anyone is saying David chuckles in the sight of recent outages. The email which was sent does not seem to be a personal attack on David's character and - apart from some random comments - nobody seems to speak bad of David himself. I'm a Tumblr user and will keep using it for the very reason that the service is simply growing too fast for them to keep up at the moment, but in the end I believe it will stabilize. That being said, a response like that is just utter crap. (Sidenote: so far, I have seen a copy/paste of the entire message (?) that was supposably sent to Tumblr, but only excerpts of the reply that was received) Replying in a normal manner to someone that sends a normal e-mail is not something that is left to be done for PR teams and customer service departments. It really is not that hard. We all say stuff that comes out wrong and there is no need to blow it out of proportion. Seeing that is has already done that, it would probably be a good display of character to set things straight, even if there seems to be nothing to gain from it. As far as the article is concerned: I believe it could have been written a lot better. Catchphrases like "Could David Karp be the downfall of Tumblr?" are inappropriate and belong in gossip-magazines. The number of claims and experiences on which this article is based (or at least, references) is too low to make it believable and the tone of the article ("Tumblr has been ignoring complaints routinely for the past year whilst Karp apparently indulges in the money he gains from funding") does not really stand out as objective to me.

kapitti 16y ago

> You can't have a PR team and a customer service department that makes sure everybody gets a nice reply. Do you really need a PR/CS team to ensure people get a nice reply? Shouldn't that just be something that a /very nice guy/ would accomplish naturally?

rokhayakebe 16y ago

Why give him a break? He is a public CEO. If he does well the internet will talk about it. If he does otherwise, well, he can expect the internet to talk about it too. Nobody gives a care if David is the coolest thing on his/your block. There is not one valid reason to tell a customer to "Please go away". You should just take the bullet, apologize for not meeting their expectation and maybe offer your point of view. If the customer is being rude, you have the right to not answer.

SoftwareMaven 16y ago
There are definitely times when you should tell a customer to go away. Any time a customer is seriously diverting you from where you need to be as a business, you have a potential time to say "find somebody else." However, this customer was complaining about the core business, not some diversion. Even if he was diverting, there are far more appropriate ways to say good-bye. It sounds to me like David heard once "don't keep customers who aren't profitable" but never internalized what that really means.
justin 16y ago
Yes, there is. You should tell customers to go away when they cost you more than they earn you. Costs come in many forms, both monetary and emotional. If dealing with specific complaining users damages team morale, then perhaps the company should consider whether those few users are worth it. Further, I doubt very much that bad PR like this affects Tumblr. 1) The vast majority of Tumblr users will never hear about this, 2) The ones that do will probably decide whether to continue using the service based on whether or not Tumblr actually solves their downtime problems on an ongoing basis.
- rokhayakebe 16y ago
  There is a difference between "We will understand it if you choose to go with a different company. However you should know and we are working hard at resolving these issues." and "... Please go Away." Seriously, it is not as if the guy insulted them.
  - 16y ago

tuckbuck 16y ago

so what if Karp is a nice guy? it is not about whether he is nice guy or not,but how customers (free & paying) are treated. Are you saying that since millions of customers are getting a free service ("five MILLION visitors every single day, almost none of whom pay a dime.") and so should expect a lower level of service ? it clearly shows the frustration on Karp's part and that he is not able to handle the pressures.

jonpaul 16y ago

Joel: At the risk of sounding trollish, you read like that Chris Crocker guy of "Leave Brittney Alone" YouTube fame. 1) He's a CEO. He'd better have thick skin to be one. 2) Most of your points are dead on correct. HOWEVER, I've repeatedly begged for a premium offering. I realize that that doesn't seem to be their monetization strategy, so maybe I should look elsewhere if I value my blog so much. Regardless, the guy is a CEO. He better be able to deal with it. I sincerely hope that this comment doesn't make me sound too insensitive, just a little bit. But his problem is a good one to have, and I would love to have it.