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You probably didn't talk to jailed dissidents, the families of executed political prisoners, the mothers who 's babys were killed because they went beyond the c

You probably didn't talk to jailed dissidents, the families of executed political prisoners, the mothers who 's babys were killed because they went beyond the child quota, the people who were forbidden to have another child, the prisoners forced to work in factories, the prisoners killed to have their organs harvested, etc. Vacation is one thing, but the evil of the government is well documented. Hong Kong used to be the freest country in the world prior to 1997, and it enjoyed one of the greatest generations of wealth in the world because of that freedom. Even their money was privately minted. I was fortunate enough to visit before the hand over, and what an amazing place it was. That tradition of freedom still lingers, but is being snuffed out. Those posters hidden away in the temple would have been out in the streets in the earlier freer days. Technology, like the search engine provided by Google, is giving the government the power to keep the masses from doing what they should do - overthrow the repressive regime. Another Tiannamen square will come, and the regime will use any and all force to subdue it. Their only principle is maintaining power - that has been their history and present and future until they loose power. Comparing this to the US system is dramatically misunderstanding and utterly taking for granted the amazing freedom we have and the reasons for it. The difference is in kind, not degree.

lupin_sansei 20y ago
"Comparing this to the US system is dramatically misunderstanding and utterly taking for granted the amazing freedom we have and the reasons for it. The difference is in kind, not degree" Well said. Democracies like the US and Japan and Europe have orders of magnitude more freedom than dictatorships. It's popular to see a moral equivalence between dictatorships and democracies, but history doesn't see an equivalence.
albertcardona 20y ago
As a European living in the USA: the USA is much less free than any country in Europe. But not for lack of noble laws, in which the USA excels, but rather, for lack of public education that would entitle everyone to be aware and enjoy such freedom. Add to the above the blatant lack of equality in opportunity: if one's family is not focused in providing an environment (and usually the funds too) to foster a high education --by which I don't mean a university degree--, one is screwed forever. In short: high schools and undergraduate degrees in the USA suck big time (only at grad school does one see a proper, comparable level to Europe), and parents wander clueless as to what is important to create self-sufficient, independent and free adults.
- lupin_sansei 20y ago
  "As a European living in the USA: the USA is much less free than any country in Europe." Not according to Freedom House. The US and most of Western Europe are equally politically free: http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15 http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15 And economically the US is freer than any country in Europe http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cfm http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cfm "lack of public education" What are you talking about? The US has more than enough public schools. "Add to the above the blatant lack of equality in opportunity" Urban Myth. The per-capita GDP in the US is higher than almost every European country. Around $10,000 more than France, the UK or Germany. So your average US citizen is 30% wealthier than your average European. Income inequality (assuming that's a bad thing) is only slightly lower in the US than Europe too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality Also the US has a much higher proportion of the population with University qualifications than most of Europe too: http://www.oecd.org/document/31/0,2340,en_2649_201185_33710751_1_1_1_1,00.html http://www.oecd.org/document/31/0,2340,en_2649_201185_33710751_1_1_1_1,00.html "In short: high schools and undergraduate degrees in the USA suck big time" Could you back that up with some evidence?
  - albertcardona 20y ago
    "Not according to Freedom House." The website you cite defines a Free Country as one where there is: 1) a broad scope for open political competition, 2) a climate for respect of civil liberties, 3) significant independent civic life, 4) independent media The USA does not have 1 (locked two-party system with associated elite families, if not in theory, at least in practice), 2 ( 9/11 related policies? Federal agencies capturing information on citizens continuously?) and 4 (there was an independent media some decades ago, not anymore). 3 is allowed in full only within the privacy of your home. Don't confuse economical prosperity with freedom. About "lack of public education": I am no native English speaker. I meant to say, lack of education of the public. General culture levels are very low among USA citizens. My data: you have no idea how many times I've been told that Spain is in the north of Mexico, and not by Mexicans obviously. Plus how many USA citizens can locate Iraq in a map? The statistics I've seen are hilarious. Severe lacunae in geography and history among USA citizens is the norm -even though my daily social environment is a university. Exceptions are very much welcome, and I have found out they are almost all first-generation americans with properly educated parents (by which I mean, their parents were born elsewhere and came to the USA as adults). If you get the GDP and remove the top 5% of rich people, the average citizens' wealth changes a lot. But the main point is: if born poor and grown uneducated, here in the USA the citizen is likely to remain poor and uneducated. Where I come from, free access all the way up to PhD education is the norm, then you're on your own and it's up to you, but at least the impact of the socioeconomic status of one's parent's is removed from the equation (not totally, but substantially). In my daily experience at the university, senior undergraduate students show the level of knowledge I am used to expect from freshmen, and the writing skills of a 14 year old. There are exceptions of course. And it's good that they catch-up during the first two years of graduate school. Something is horribly wrong in the education USA citizens receive between ages 14 and 22.

lupin_sansei 20y ago

"Comparing this to the US system is dramatically misunderstanding and utterly taking for granted the amazing freedom we have and the reasons for it. The difference is in kind, not degree" Well said. Democracies like the US and Japan and Europe have orders of magnitude more freedom than dictatorships. It's popular to see a moral equivalence between dictatorships and democracies, but history doesn't see an equivalence.

albertcardona 20y ago

As a European living in the USA: the USA is much less free than any country in Europe. But not for lack of noble laws, in which the USA excels, but rather, for lack of public education that would entitle everyone to be aware and enjoy such freedom. Add to the above the blatant lack of equality in opportunity: if one's family is not focused in providing an environment (and usually the funds too) to foster a high education --by which I don't mean a university degree--, one is screwed forever. In short: high schools and undergraduate degrees in the USA suck big time (only at grad school does one see a proper, comparable level to Europe), and parents wander clueless as to what is important to create self-sufficient, independent and free adults.

lupin_sansei 20y ago
"As a European living in the USA: the USA is much less free than any country in Europe." Not according to Freedom House. The US and most of Western Europe are equally politically free: http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15 http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15 And economically the US is freer than any country in Europe http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cfm http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cfm "lack of public education" What are you talking about? The US has more than enough public schools. "Add to the above the blatant lack of equality in opportunity" Urban Myth. The per-capita GDP in the US is higher than almost every European country. Around $10,000 more than France, the UK or Germany. So your average US citizen is 30% wealthier than your average European. Income inequality (assuming that's a bad thing) is only slightly lower in the US than Europe too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality Also the US has a much higher proportion of the population with University qualifications than most of Europe too: http://www.oecd.org/document/31/0,2340,en_2649_201185_33710751_1_1_1_1,00.html http://www.oecd.org/document/31/0,2340,en_2649_201185_33710751_1_1_1_1,00.html "In short: high schools and undergraduate degrees in the USA suck big time" Could you back that up with some evidence?
- albertcardona 20y ago
  "Not according to Freedom House." The website you cite defines a Free Country as one where there is: 1) a broad scope for open political competition, 2) a climate for respect of civil liberties, 3) significant independent civic life, 4) independent media The USA does not have 1 (locked two-party system with associated elite families, if not in theory, at least in practice), 2 ( 9/11 related policies? Federal agencies capturing information on citizens continuously?) and 4 (there was an independent media some decades ago, not anymore). 3 is allowed in full only within the privacy of your home. Don't confuse economical prosperity with freedom. About "lack of public education": I am no native English speaker. I meant to say, lack of education of the public. General culture levels are very low among USA citizens. My data: you have no idea how many times I've been told that Spain is in the north of Mexico, and not by Mexicans obviously. Plus how many USA citizens can locate Iraq in a map? The statistics I've seen are hilarious. Severe lacunae in geography and history among USA citizens is the norm -even though my daily social environment is a university. Exceptions are very much welcome, and I have found out they are almost all first-generation americans with properly educated parents (by which I mean, their parents were born elsewhere and came to the USA as adults). If you get the GDP and remove the top 5% of rich people, the average citizens' wealth changes a lot. But the main point is: if born poor and grown uneducated, here in the USA the citizen is likely to remain poor and uneducated. Where I come from, free access all the way up to PhD education is the norm, then you're on your own and it's up to you, but at least the impact of the socioeconomic status of one's parent's is removed from the equation (not totally, but substantially). In my daily experience at the university, senior undergraduate students show the level of knowledge I am used to expect from freshmen, and the writing skills of a 14 year old. There are exceptions of course. And it's good that they catch-up during the first two years of graduate school. Something is horribly wrong in the education USA citizens receive between ages 14 and 22.