16 ms·

California’s Criminal Cops

249 points by danso 7y ago

danso 7y ago
Previous discussion, before the list was released and looked into: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19257434 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19257434
rolltiide 7y ago
amazing how investigative reporting is so rare that they felt comfortable dedicating the whole article to heralding that they even did actual research to begin with they went to places where the records were supposed to be instead of merely googling and being content with the poor information? Two pages to describe that experience coming right up
- danso 7y ago
  My mistake, it looks like I linked to the About page and not the story page: https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/11/10/californias-criminal-cops-convicted-but-stay-on-the-job/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/11/10/californias-criminal-...
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Paging dang... link change?
  - dang 7y ago
    Changed now from https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/11/10/californias-criminal-cops-about-the-project/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/11/10/californias-criminal-....
mehrdadn 7y ago
> They encountered numerous hurdles including poor record keeping, uncooperative clerks and hundreds of destroyed files. Well this is terrible... I'd have expected courts to do things by the book.
- flyGuyOnTheSly 7y ago
  Give "Making a Murderer" on Netflix a watch. It's a real eye opener if you thought that courts do things by the book imho.
  - late2part 7y ago
    Last time I plead innocent for a speeding ticket, the clerk asked me to sign a blank form, which they would later fill in for me (!!!!).
    - yardie 7y ago
      Unbeknownst to me I had been driving around on a suspended license for 6 months. The traffic ticket I had paid was never entered correctly. Apparently my hobbies include giving courthouses free money. I walked into court with a copy of the cancelled check. The clerk's record showed the receipt with a big PAID stamp on the digital copy.
    - jdblair 7y ago
      Did you do it?
      - late2part 7y ago
        heck no, had to go back and sit in court to get judge to proclaim things for them to put in form for me to sign.
    - duahncjak 7y ago
      If this happens to anyone, see if you can get permission to record it.
  - umvi 7y ago
    I did watch that but the documentary seemed very biased toward the defense. Like... Avery's dna was found in the victim's car, and the victim's charred bones were found in Avery's fire pit. But the show plays these off and makes it seem like a police conspiracy.
newnewpdro 7y ago
Cops are thugs with badges, it's just a matter of which team they're playing for within the same sport. I'm not sure how much that matters though. Who else do you expect to be interested in risking their lives while interacting with suspected criminals actively committing crimes? Maybe we should just be happy they're playing for our team. If anything it's just reason for better oversight and surveillance of all police activity.
- colejohnson66 7y ago
  Have you ever considered that some cops are people who want to stop crime? And not be part of a crime? I’ve seen many people texting and driving, and every once in a while, I’ll wish I was a cop so I could pull them over and chew them out.
  - 0_gravitas 7y ago
    I've also seen plenty of cops flash their lights on the highway when traffic is slow just so they can get to lunch or wherever the hell faster, and then immediately turn the lights back off when they can go back to doing 80 in a 55 without people in front of them. If that isn't a casual and blatant abuse of power I don't know what is. We'd like to think most cops are "people who want to stop crime, the good guys!" but it often seems to just be people that get off on the power-trip. Even then, what crime are they trying to stop by camping behind trees to meet their ticket quotas for speeders when I can't even remember the last time I've seen a cop go the speed limit themselves? But to quote someone else that also has far more power than they should: "some, I assume, are good people"--this does not mean that there is no cause for serious concern with the operations of the "thin blue line".
    - colejohnson66 7y ago
      I never said that there weren’t bad cops, or that good cops never abuse their power. I was responding to the argument that they join just to be thugs.
      - deleted 7y ago
vanniv 7y ago
California harboring massive amounts of corruption?! Shocking!
wallace_f 7y ago
“When I see an actual flesh-and-blood worker in conflict with his natural enemy, the policeman, I do not have to ask myself which side I am on." -George Orwell Saw this on front page of reddit today: https://www.reddit.com/r/Wellthatsucks/comments/dua2bh/hong_kong_cop_pours_water_to_put_out_candles/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Wellthatsucks/comments/dua2bh/hong_...
AJ007 7y ago
One would presume past convictions would greatly increase the potential liability of any officer behavior involved lawsuits. Perhaps some of these municipalities will suddenly find their insurance policies dropped.
- sunflowerfly 7y ago
  The simple solution is to have officers carry their own liability insurance, similar to other professionals. Bad officers would become uninsurable.
  - iknowalot 7y ago
    Absolutely and if their insurance doesn't cover the damage they've done, the liability should overflow into their pensions.
- MrMorden 7y ago
  That is exactly the reason large cities self-insure.
  - YokoZar 7y ago
    Are you saying large cities self-insure so that they can hire officers who are uninsurable due to committing crimes? That doesn't sound like a reasoned policy decision.
jeffdavis 7y ago
One thing weird to me about the gun debate is that it always seems to exclude police -- on duty or off, current or former -- and nobody questions that in the slightest. For instance, California has a handgun roster. If a citizen buys a handgun, it needs to be on a special list. The last time a model was added was 2013 [1]. Supposedly it's to make sure pistols are safe. But if you are a police officer, go ahead and buy a 2019 model! In fact, go ahead and buy a 2019 model, and then sell it for 2X to a normal citizen, if you want. A good side business! How does any part of that make sense? I guess the theory is that officers are well-trained and responsible, but where is the evidence of that? And why can't anyone else take the same magical steps to show their worthiness? [1] Due largely to the "microstamping" requirememt, which is impractical to meet, but required for new models (some very minor variants are still allowed without microstamping). See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microstamping https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microstamping
- huffmsa 7y ago
  All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others. It's just the way things are when you "trust the government" to work in your best interest. If you're not on them like stink on a turd, they'll go tyrannical
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  >One thing weird to me about the gun debate is that it always seems to exclude police -- on duty or off, current or former -- and nobody questions that in the slightest. Other commenters have already covered possible motives I will cover the practicality side. It would be impossible to pass gun control with that massive voting block (law enforcement and everyone that supports them) against you. Public safety or something along those lines is one of the reasons people advocate for gun control. If you don't exempt the police then basically every police chief will go on record saying your gun control will be terrible for public safety.
  - joe_the_user 7y ago
    Well, the problem with your argument is you seem to be arguing that any gun control is good gun control so it's reasonable to push for a completely ineffective gun.
idoubtit 7y ago
In which countries are law officers accountable for their crimes? I can't name any. Two weeks ago in France, 2 policemen were sentenced for beating up students. This kind of conviction is extremely rare, but they were caught on CCTV beating up "for fun" two students that were walking back home. It was probably a racist beating, since they first attacked the colored guy. Their sentences were symbolic. Both are still policemen, and one of them has been promoted. https://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/prison-avec-sursis-pour-des-policiers-qui-avaient-agresse-des-etudiants-20191014 https://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/prison-avec-sursis-pour-d... (in French) De facto, policemen are above the law. And of course, many of them abuse that system. Yet most people don't care. They want law and order, even if the law is not the same for everyone, and even if the order is not just, and sometimes criminal.
- icelancer 7y ago
  >> In which countries are law officers accountable for their crimes? I can't name any. Basically none, if you mean as a rule. There are exceptions of course in all countries, including the United States, but by and large, officers are above the law. Yet the answer is rarely "less government / oversight" when it comes to these issues. It's just a race to get their preferred candidate into office who will wield the expanding power in a more efficient and effective manner, of course.
  - samstave 7y ago
    The "officers" being shown in /r/HongKong disgust and enrage me. My dad was Oakland PD in the 70s - he quit after OPD killed several black panthers. He said he had to quit, as, "When you spend your whole life looking for bad, soon, thats all you can see" https://old.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dujohq/1111_hong_kong_police_shot_the_protester_on_the/ https://old.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dujohq/1111_hong_...
- Kostchei 7y ago
  There is a more insidious problem at work here. Police are, by dint of their daily work, good at understanding how the law works and how people get away with crimes. This means that if you treat them equally to a random person, they have the knowledge to/will get away with more crimes. The only problem with holding them to a higher standard once you understand this, is that it generates resentment, and the higher standard becomes a different system they learn and game. I say this as someone committed to justice for who 15 years in policing is receding into the past. I don't have a perfect solution or I might have stayed in policing, at least kept my badge- I work in security now which scratches the itch that got me into law-enforcement in the first place. (don't tell my coworker devs that- some already think infosec is out to get them- we are not) It is hard to stay justice oriented no matter where you are- in gov law enforcement or the private sector, startup or big-corp.
tyxodiwktis 7y ago
Stepping back, societies often struggle with managing the behavior of the instruments of public order. There seems to be an inherent tension between tasking people with dealing with society’s “undesirables” and bad behavior and also having them behave as model citizens themselves. An interesting read is, “The Faithful Executioner” about 16th century Nuremberg. The book is heavily based on contemporary sources. The town archers, who are responsible for law enforcement, often cause trouble through drunkenness, excessive violence, and general bad behavior, and are rarely held accountable except for the most egregious offenses. An interesting parallel that points to that broader tension.
js2 7y ago
This is only tangentially related, but This American Life did an episode about a month ago about how difficult it is to reform an institution. Specifically it was about fire fighters in Amsterdam: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/684/burn-it-down/prologue-and-act-one-3 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/684/burn-it-down/prologue-a... https://www.thisamericanlife.org/684/transcript https://www.thisamericanlife.org/684/transcript This was just one department in one city, and it was mostly just bad behavior ("macho, frat house culture"), nothing criminal. The effort failed.
- LifeLiverTransp 7y ago
  or maybe, just maybe, you want a macho to run into the wrong direction, you want somebody insanely self-convinced jump into smoke and fire, to drag your unconcious body to safety- and poltical correctness does not improve that situation, and ultimatly endangers people by discouraging a culture of self-disregard and recklessness. You cant order mamoth steak, from a civilized guy who finds it insane to jump on 1 t animal with a sharpend stick. And yes, that sort of insanity inverses mate-selection pressure and creates what some would call a "rape" culture- throw yourself at them while they are still around. This was one of humanitys success recipes. And as soon as there will be risky environments are back (martian desserts, oort-cloud) it will be again. Sorry, that this sub-component of the species does not appeal to you. Guess, accepting this is out of the question.
crb002 7y ago
Iowa’s Governor Kim Reynolds has had several drunk driving convictions. Why should police be held to a higher standard than the Governor?
- 0_gravitas 7y ago
  Perhaps they should all be held to the same higher standard, this whataboutism is coming at it from the wrong angle imo
- toomanybeersies 7y ago
  There is a very good argument to be made that disallowing people with convictions from running for office would allow the police force to be weaponised against political opponents.
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  Because the Governor actually had to be elected for one - the positions are apples and oranges. Simply allowing people to be barred from office because of conviction past or present is dangerous as it gives a very abusable tool to disqualify political rivals. This isn't a theoretical thing - many dictatorships and sham-democracies use it regularly. Now politicians shouldn't have impunity but it is ultimately up to the voters to decide what does and doesn't disqualify someone from governorship. If the voters know of their record and decide to elect them anyway it is within their right. Mathew Lyon got re-elected after being jailed for violation of the Sedition act where his whole defense was 'this law is blatantly unconstitutional'. Meanwhile a police position employeed is supposed to be subordinate to the laws and by the books. Demonstrating questionable judgement and keeping them on isn't fair to /everyone else/. Having every last police officer elected wouldn't be very logistically plausible nor would voters be as well equipped to evaluate candidates so having a 'bureaucratic' process makes sense for those sorts of roles.
rb808 7y ago
> They drove drunk, cheated on time cards, brutalized family members, even killed others with their recklessness on the road. But thanks to some of the weakest laws in the country for punishing police misconduct, the Golden State does nothing to stop these officers from enforcing the law. Honestly I dont like the American enthusiasm for restricting employment of criminals that have served their time. If someone had a DUI or cheated on time cards in their past I have no problem with them being a cop. Brutalizing family members sounds more serious but I'd like to find out more before judging someone on a brief description.
- s1artibartfast 7y ago
  It would be interesting to see how the rates compare to other professions. >More than 80 law enforcement officers working today in California are convicted criminals So 80/80,000 have some sort of misdemeanor conviction. I wonder how many of those are serious and how the rate compares to doctors, politicians, and engineers
  - jonathankoren 7y ago
    You also have to keep in mind that cops also by statute have a much higher bar for conviction, which not only means they are more likely to not to be found guilty, but not even prosecuted for acts that would be an open and shut case for anyone else. Also, let’s not forget sovereign immunity also applies to cops. And this on top of the the fact that cops underreport cop crimes, and prosecutors use their discretion to not prosecute cops by a huge margin.
- chrisweekly 7y ago
  Those were examples of POLICE MISCONDUCT. Which is to say, crimes committed WHILE THEY WERE EMPLOYED AS POLICE OFFICERS. This has precisely nothing to do with employment discrimination against former felons. It has to do with enabling ongoing criminal behavior by police officers -- those very people entrusted with a sacred privileged duty to uphold the law -- without fear of consequence. Police officers (and judges and others granted power by our society to wield life-and-death power over other citizens) must be held to the highest standards in their conduct.
Muuuchem 7y ago
What do you know, the most common offenses are alcohol related. People that cant control their own drug use are the front-line warriors in the war on drugs arresting people for not abusing the same drugs they abuse. I know things have obviously gotten better in regards to prohibition in California, but there is still no excuse for people being caged, harrassed, and lightly abused for taking a substance to try and feel better in this shitstorm of pain and suffering that we call life. As long as people arent hurting anyone other than themselves, then no reason to cage them and ruin their ability to get jobs and progress out of the hole that our drug laws put them in. Idk i just thought that it was incredibly telling that the group of people that continuously arrest others for drugs putting them in situations where they are unable to find employment, do not suffer from the same penalties when they get caught abusing the drug that they say is OK (and is arguably one of the most destructive of all drugs). It truly sucks to hate and fear the group of people that are supposed to help and protect you in emergency. Even now that I am a professional, long removed from my days of risky behavior like fearing the police while leaving a rave with personal amounts of drugs, they still prove they dont care about helping and are more concerned about their bonuses from finding drugs. The last time I called police because my roommate was drunk and yelling and threatening me, they saw a single syringe cap on the bathroom floor from where my roommate had thrown the bathroom trash can. They got aggressive and started threatening and looking around the apartment and in open rooms without express permission. I work in a biochemistry lab and use syringes, mostlyneedl3less everyday at work, had accidentally thrown some minor trash in my pocket and emptied it out while changing clothing in the bathroom. But this apparently was probable cause enough to be an asshole and search around mildly and forget about the actual reason i called
- solidsnack9000 7y ago
  California cops are definitely not on the front lines of the drug wars. Many departments have standing orders to ignore all but the largest quantities of drugs.
rmason 7y ago
What I am left wondering is how many are kicked off a police force in another state and then get hired on in California? This report only looked at officers California records. I know there are cases where doctors lose their medical license and there's a handful of states where they can move and regain a license. Is the same true for police officers?
- jonathankoren 7y ago
  Happens all the time https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/investigations/police-fired-rehired/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/investigations/... https://www.news5cleveland.com/despite-crimes-misconduct-fired-police-officers-often-end-up-back-on-the-streets https://www.news5cleveland.com/despite-crimes-misconduct-fir... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/officer-fired-twice-from-one-police-department-became-chief-of-another/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/officer-fired-twice-from-one-po...
RickJWagner 7y ago
I've got a neighbor that's a cop. And a nephew who is a detective. And the gym I work out at is crawling with cops. There's a judge and some school police, too. All of them are very good people. I think the few bad apples get a lot of press.
- PhantomGremlin 7y ago
  All of them are very good people. Just how "good" are they if the "blue wall of silence" is rule #1 in terms of ignoring what you call "bad apples" and what civilians call criminal misconduct? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence
  - RickJWagner 7y ago
    You don't know these people, do you? I am not aware of any bad behavior from any of them, and I am first-hand witness to good deeds done by them. Do you have any first-hand knowledge of police misbehaving? I mean people you actually know?
    - PhantomGremlin 7y ago
      Do you have any comments about the specifics of the Mercury News article? Are they making stuff up for clicks? You personally haven't seen your neighbors misbehaving, but it's not like they're just going to brag about it to you, are they? Do you have any first-hand knowledge of police misbehaving? You mean other than the time I got pulled over in some shithole town in NJ because that's just what the local police did there to raise revenue? The Interstate used to end right at that point, it went down to a normal 4-lane road. The local pigs would have a car working that area, pulling people over. When they finished writing a ticket for one car, they'd get back on the road, going the other direction (they only worked about a 1 mile stretch). Within 30 seconds their lights would be flashing and they'd pull another car over. I used to commute that stretch of road daily, so I saw this happen constantly. Constantly. Constantly. For years and years. Finally they finished the Interstate and bypassed the town. This was the early 1980s. That's what used to happen in the open in NJ. Far worse were other shithole towns in NJ that had a reputation for having police control the stoplights as you went thru town. They'd flip the light red, pull you over, arrest you, take you to court right then. "What you got there now, Seth", said the judge to the arresting police officer. That one I heard second hand, from a friend of mine, a person I "actually knew". Nothing an on-the-spot fine payment couldn't take care of. Simple petty graft. Done out in the open. For years. Just off an Interstate. Experiences like that give the entire justice system a bad name. Everyone knows what's going on, nobody does anything about it, even if they're not personally profiting from the corruption. It's that pesky blue wall of silence, elaborated in detail at the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence I lived in NYC in 1970. Was the stuff documented by the Knapp Commission made up? Was all of that stuff contemporaneously reported on TV and in the newspapers made up for ratings and circulation? Did I have to personally experience it before I was allowed to believe it? Unfortunately, one bad interaction with police negates 100 good interactions. Just like one bad meal at a restaurant can negate the 100 good meals you've previously had there. That's simple human nature.
plumednom 7y ago
Californian cops are basically mafia. A few years ago I had posted something on Facebook about a crooked cop in California who had been cleared in two suspicious killings though they found he had planted guns on his victims, had been arrested for attacking another cop when he pulled him over for a DUI. The cop himself was never fired or sent to jail. Anyways, I posted this on Facebook and accidentally made it public. 2 days later, this 60 year retired murderer was stalking me on facebook, linkedin, etc. A week later I was pulled over on a warrant for a speeding ticket I'd paid years before, and had to go through an incredible amount of hoops to get it cleared up (even though I still had proof I'd paid it).
aidenn0 7y ago
> One thing that is clear: Many of the officers on the state’s secret convictions list who are still working today likely wouldn’t be cops in other states. That's not how it always works. The officers pled to misdemeanors because they knew they could keep their jobs with a misdemeanor. In other states they would plea to a non-criminal charge instead, or manage to not get convicted at all. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
willyt 7y ago
Cops should lose their jobs if they commit crime. But, recklessness, drinking and domestic violence are common symptoms of PTSD. Police see a lot of bad stuff. Maybe the police department should look after their people better before their officer’s conduct gets out of hand.

249 points by danso 7y ago

Previous discussion, before the list was released and looked into: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19257434 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19257434

rolltiide 7y ago

amazing how investigative reporting is so rare that they felt comfortable dedicating the whole article to heralding that they even did actual research to begin with they went to places where the records were supposed to be instead of merely googling and being content with the poor information? Two pages to describe that experience coming right up

danso 7y ago
My mistake, it looks like I linked to the About page and not the story page: https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/11/10/californias-criminal-cops-convicted-but-stay-on-the-job/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/11/10/californias-criminal-...
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Paging dang... link change?
- dang 7y ago
  Changed now from https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/11/10/californias-criminal-cops-about-the-project/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/11/10/californias-criminal-....

mehrdadn 7y ago

> They encountered numerous hurdles including poor record keeping, uncooperative clerks and hundreds of destroyed files. Well this is terrible... I'd have expected courts to do things by the book.

flyGuyOnTheSly 7y ago
Give "Making a Murderer" on Netflix a watch. It's a real eye opener if you thought that courts do things by the book imho.
- late2part 7y ago
  Last time I plead innocent for a speeding ticket, the clerk asked me to sign a blank form, which they would later fill in for me (!!!!).
  - yardie 7y ago
    Unbeknownst to me I had been driving around on a suspended license for 6 months. The traffic ticket I had paid was never entered correctly. Apparently my hobbies include giving courthouses free money. I walked into court with a copy of the cancelled check. The clerk's record showed the receipt with a big PAID stamp on the digital copy.
  - jdblair 7y ago
    Did you do it?
    - late2part 7y ago
      heck no, had to go back and sit in court to get judge to proclaim things for them to put in form for me to sign.
  - duahncjak 7y ago
    If this happens to anyone, see if you can get permission to record it.
- umvi 7y ago
  I did watch that but the documentary seemed very biased toward the defense. Like... Avery's dna was found in the victim's car, and the victim's charred bones were found in Avery's fire pit. But the show plays these off and makes it seem like a police conspiracy.

newnewpdro 7y ago

Cops are thugs with badges, it's just a matter of which team they're playing for within the same sport. I'm not sure how much that matters though. Who else do you expect to be interested in risking their lives while interacting with suspected criminals actively committing crimes? Maybe we should just be happy they're playing for our team. If anything it's just reason for better oversight and surveillance of all police activity.

colejohnson66 7y ago
Have you ever considered that some cops are people who want to stop crime? And not be part of a crime? I’ve seen many people texting and driving, and every once in a while, I’ll wish I was a cop so I could pull them over and chew them out.
- 0_gravitas 7y ago
  I've also seen plenty of cops flash their lights on the highway when traffic is slow just so they can get to lunch or wherever the hell faster, and then immediately turn the lights back off when they can go back to doing 80 in a 55 without people in front of them. If that isn't a casual and blatant abuse of power I don't know what is. We'd like to think most cops are "people who want to stop crime, the good guys!" but it often seems to just be people that get off on the power-trip. Even then, what crime are they trying to stop by camping behind trees to meet their ticket quotas for speeders when I can't even remember the last time I've seen a cop go the speed limit themselves? But to quote someone else that also has far more power than they should: "some, I assume, are good people"--this does not mean that there is no cause for serious concern with the operations of the "thin blue line".
  - colejohnson66 7y ago
    I never said that there weren’t bad cops, or that good cops never abuse their power. I was responding to the argument that they join just to be thugs.
    - deleted 7y ago

vanniv 7y ago

California harboring massive amounts of corruption?! Shocking!

wallace_f 7y ago

“When I see an actual flesh-and-blood worker in conflict with his natural enemy, the policeman, I do not have to ask myself which side I am on." -George Orwell Saw this on front page of reddit today: https://www.reddit.com/r/Wellthatsucks/comments/dua2bh/hong_kong_cop_pours_water_to_put_out_candles/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Wellthatsucks/comments/dua2bh/hong_...

AJ007 7y ago

One would presume past convictions would greatly increase the potential liability of any officer behavior involved lawsuits. Perhaps some of these municipalities will suddenly find their insurance policies dropped.

sunflowerfly 7y ago
The simple solution is to have officers carry their own liability insurance, similar to other professionals. Bad officers would become uninsurable.
- iknowalot 7y ago
  Absolutely and if their insurance doesn't cover the damage they've done, the liability should overflow into their pensions.
MrMorden 7y ago
That is exactly the reason large cities self-insure.
- YokoZar 7y ago
  Are you saying large cities self-insure so that they can hire officers who are uninsurable due to committing crimes? That doesn't sound like a reasoned policy decision.

jeffdavis 7y ago

One thing weird to me about the gun debate is that it always seems to exclude police -- on duty or off, current or former -- and nobody questions that in the slightest. For instance, California has a handgun roster. If a citizen buys a handgun, it needs to be on a special list. The last time a model was added was 2013 [1]. Supposedly it's to make sure pistols are safe. But if you are a police officer, go ahead and buy a 2019 model! In fact, go ahead and buy a 2019 model, and then sell it for 2X to a normal citizen, if you want. A good side business! How does any part of that make sense? I guess the theory is that officers are well-trained and responsible, but where is the evidence of that? And why can't anyone else take the same magical steps to show their worthiness? [1] Due largely to the "microstamping" requirememt, which is impractical to meet, but required for new models (some very minor variants are still allowed without microstamping). See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microstamping https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microstamping

huffmsa 7y ago
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others. It's just the way things are when you "trust the government" to work in your best interest. If you're not on them like stink on a turd, they'll go tyrannical
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
>One thing weird to me about the gun debate is that it always seems to exclude police -- on duty or off, current or former -- and nobody questions that in the slightest. Other commenters have already covered possible motives I will cover the practicality side. It would be impossible to pass gun control with that massive voting block (law enforcement and everyone that supports them) against you. Public safety or something along those lines is one of the reasons people advocate for gun control. If you don't exempt the police then basically every police chief will go on record saying your gun control will be terrible for public safety.
- joe_the_user 7y ago
  Well, the problem with your argument is you seem to be arguing that any gun control is good gun control so it's reasonable to push for a completely ineffective gun.

idoubtit 7y ago

In which countries are law officers accountable for their crimes? I can't name any. Two weeks ago in France, 2 policemen were sentenced for beating up students. This kind of conviction is extremely rare, but they were caught on CCTV beating up "for fun" two students that were walking back home. It was probably a racist beating, since they first attacked the colored guy. Their sentences were symbolic. Both are still policemen, and one of them has been promoted. https://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/prison-avec-sursis-pour-des-policiers-qui-avaient-agresse-des-etudiants-20191014 https://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/prison-avec-sursis-pour-d... (in French) De facto, policemen are above the law. And of course, many of them abuse that system. Yet most people don't care. They want law and order, even if the law is not the same for everyone, and even if the order is not just, and sometimes criminal.

icelancer 7y ago
>> In which countries are law officers accountable for their crimes? I can't name any. Basically none, if you mean as a rule. There are exceptions of course in all countries, including the United States, but by and large, officers are above the law. Yet the answer is rarely "less government / oversight" when it comes to these issues. It's just a race to get their preferred candidate into office who will wield the expanding power in a more efficient and effective manner, of course.
- samstave 7y ago
  The "officers" being shown in /r/HongKong disgust and enrage me. My dad was Oakland PD in the 70s - he quit after OPD killed several black panthers. He said he had to quit, as, "When you spend your whole life looking for bad, soon, thats all you can see" https://old.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dujohq/1111_hong_kong_police_shot_the_protester_on_the/ https://old.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dujohq/1111_hong_...
Kostchei 7y ago
There is a more insidious problem at work here. Police are, by dint of their daily work, good at understanding how the law works and how people get away with crimes. This means that if you treat them equally to a random person, they have the knowledge to/will get away with more crimes. The only problem with holding them to a higher standard once you understand this, is that it generates resentment, and the higher standard becomes a different system they learn and game. I say this as someone committed to justice for who 15 years in policing is receding into the past. I don't have a perfect solution or I might have stayed in policing, at least kept my badge- I work in security now which scratches the itch that got me into law-enforcement in the first place. (don't tell my coworker devs that- some already think infosec is out to get them- we are not) It is hard to stay justice oriented no matter where you are- in gov law enforcement or the private sector, startup or big-corp.

tyxodiwktis 7y ago

Stepping back, societies often struggle with managing the behavior of the instruments of public order. There seems to be an inherent tension between tasking people with dealing with society’s “undesirables” and bad behavior and also having them behave as model citizens themselves. An interesting read is, “The Faithful Executioner” about 16th century Nuremberg. The book is heavily based on contemporary sources. The town archers, who are responsible for law enforcement, often cause trouble through drunkenness, excessive violence, and general bad behavior, and are rarely held accountable except for the most egregious offenses. An interesting parallel that points to that broader tension.

js2 7y ago

This is only tangentially related, but This American Life did an episode about a month ago about how difficult it is to reform an institution. Specifically it was about fire fighters in Amsterdam: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/684/burn-it-down/prologue-and-act-one-3 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/684/burn-it-down/prologue-a... https://www.thisamericanlife.org/684/transcript https://www.thisamericanlife.org/684/transcript This was just one department in one city, and it was mostly just bad behavior ("macho, frat house culture"), nothing criminal. The effort failed.

LifeLiverTransp 7y ago
or maybe, just maybe, you want a macho to run into the wrong direction, you want somebody insanely self-convinced jump into smoke and fire, to drag your unconcious body to safety- and poltical correctness does not improve that situation, and ultimatly endangers people by discouraging a culture of self-disregard and recklessness. You cant order mamoth steak, from a civilized guy who finds it insane to jump on 1 t animal with a sharpend stick. And yes, that sort of insanity inverses mate-selection pressure and creates what some would call a "rape" culture- throw yourself at them while they are still around. This was one of humanitys success recipes. And as soon as there will be risky environments are back (martian desserts, oort-cloud) it will be again. Sorry, that this sub-component of the species does not appeal to you. Guess, accepting this is out of the question.

crb002 7y ago

Iowa’s Governor Kim Reynolds has had several drunk driving convictions. Why should police be held to a higher standard than the Governor?

0_gravitas 7y ago
Perhaps they should all be held to the same higher standard, this whataboutism is coming at it from the wrong angle imo
toomanybeersies 7y ago
There is a very good argument to be made that disallowing people with convictions from running for office would allow the police force to be weaponised against political opponents.
Nasrudith 7y ago
Because the Governor actually had to be elected for one - the positions are apples and oranges. Simply allowing people to be barred from office because of conviction past or present is dangerous as it gives a very abusable tool to disqualify political rivals. This isn't a theoretical thing - many dictatorships and sham-democracies use it regularly. Now politicians shouldn't have impunity but it is ultimately up to the voters to decide what does and doesn't disqualify someone from governorship. If the voters know of their record and decide to elect them anyway it is within their right. Mathew Lyon got re-elected after being jailed for violation of the Sedition act where his whole defense was 'this law is blatantly unconstitutional'. Meanwhile a police position employeed is supposed to be subordinate to the laws and by the books. Demonstrating questionable judgement and keeping them on isn't fair to /everyone else/. Having every last police officer elected wouldn't be very logistically plausible nor would voters be as well equipped to evaluate candidates so having a 'bureaucratic' process makes sense for those sorts of roles.

rb808 7y ago

> They drove drunk, cheated on time cards, brutalized family members, even killed others with their recklessness on the road. But thanks to some of the weakest laws in the country for punishing police misconduct, the Golden State does nothing to stop these officers from enforcing the law. Honestly I dont like the American enthusiasm for restricting employment of criminals that have served their time. If someone had a DUI or cheated on time cards in their past I have no problem with them being a cop. Brutalizing family members sounds more serious but I'd like to find out more before judging someone on a brief description.

s1artibartfast 7y ago
It would be interesting to see how the rates compare to other professions. >More than 80 law enforcement officers working today in California are convicted criminals So 80/80,000 have some sort of misdemeanor conviction. I wonder how many of those are serious and how the rate compares to doctors, politicians, and engineers
- jonathankoren 7y ago
  You also have to keep in mind that cops also by statute have a much higher bar for conviction, which not only means they are more likely to not to be found guilty, but not even prosecuted for acts that would be an open and shut case for anyone else. Also, let’s not forget sovereign immunity also applies to cops. And this on top of the the fact that cops underreport cop crimes, and prosecutors use their discretion to not prosecute cops by a huge margin.
chrisweekly 7y ago
Those were examples of POLICE MISCONDUCT. Which is to say, crimes committed WHILE THEY WERE EMPLOYED AS POLICE OFFICERS. This has precisely nothing to do with employment discrimination against former felons. It has to do with enabling ongoing criminal behavior by police officers -- those very people entrusted with a sacred privileged duty to uphold the law -- without fear of consequence. Police officers (and judges and others granted power by our society to wield life-and-death power over other citizens) must be held to the highest standards in their conduct.

Muuuchem 7y ago

What do you know, the most common offenses are alcohol related. People that cant control their own drug use are the front-line warriors in the war on drugs arresting people for not abusing the same drugs they abuse. I know things have obviously gotten better in regards to prohibition in California, but there is still no excuse for people being caged, harrassed, and lightly abused for taking a substance to try and feel better in this shitstorm of pain and suffering that we call life. As long as people arent hurting anyone other than themselves, then no reason to cage them and ruin their ability to get jobs and progress out of the hole that our drug laws put them in. Idk i just thought that it was incredibly telling that the group of people that continuously arrest others for drugs putting them in situations where they are unable to find employment, do not suffer from the same penalties when they get caught abusing the drug that they say is OK (and is arguably one of the most destructive of all drugs). It truly sucks to hate and fear the group of people that are supposed to help and protect you in emergency. Even now that I am a professional, long removed from my days of risky behavior like fearing the police while leaving a rave with personal amounts of drugs, they still prove they dont care about helping and are more concerned about their bonuses from finding drugs. The last time I called police because my roommate was drunk and yelling and threatening me, they saw a single syringe cap on the bathroom floor from where my roommate had thrown the bathroom trash can. They got aggressive and started threatening and looking around the apartment and in open rooms without express permission. I work in a biochemistry lab and use syringes, mostlyneedl3less everyday at work, had accidentally thrown some minor trash in my pocket and emptied it out while changing clothing in the bathroom. But this apparently was probable cause enough to be an asshole and search around mildly and forget about the actual reason i called

solidsnack9000 7y ago
California cops are definitely not on the front lines of the drug wars. Many departments have standing orders to ignore all but the largest quantities of drugs.

rmason 7y ago

What I am left wondering is how many are kicked off a police force in another state and then get hired on in California? This report only looked at officers California records. I know there are cases where doctors lose their medical license and there's a handful of states where they can move and regain a license. Is the same true for police officers?

jonathankoren 7y ago
Happens all the time https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/investigations/police-fired-rehired/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/investigations/... https://www.news5cleveland.com/despite-crimes-misconduct-fired-police-officers-often-end-up-back-on-the-streets https://www.news5cleveland.com/despite-crimes-misconduct-fir... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/officer-fired-twice-from-one-police-department-became-chief-of-another/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/officer-fired-twice-from-one-po...

RickJWagner 7y ago

I've got a neighbor that's a cop. And a nephew who is a detective. And the gym I work out at is crawling with cops. There's a judge and some school police, too. All of them are very good people. I think the few bad apples get a lot of press.

PhantomGremlin 7y ago
All of them are very good people. Just how "good" are they if the "blue wall of silence" is rule #1 in terms of ignoring what you call "bad apples" and what civilians call criminal misconduct? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence
- RickJWagner 7y ago
  You don't know these people, do you? I am not aware of any bad behavior from any of them, and I am first-hand witness to good deeds done by them. Do you have any first-hand knowledge of police misbehaving? I mean people you actually know?
  - PhantomGremlin 7y ago
    Do you have any comments about the specifics of the Mercury News article? Are they making stuff up for clicks? You personally haven't seen your neighbors misbehaving, but it's not like they're just going to brag about it to you, are they? Do you have any first-hand knowledge of police misbehaving? You mean other than the time I got pulled over in some shithole town in NJ because that's just what the local police did there to raise revenue? The Interstate used to end right at that point, it went down to a normal 4-lane road. The local pigs would have a car working that area, pulling people over. When they finished writing a ticket for one car, they'd get back on the road, going the other direction (they only worked about a 1 mile stretch). Within 30 seconds their lights would be flashing and they'd pull another car over. I used to commute that stretch of road daily, so I saw this happen constantly. Constantly. Constantly. For years and years. Finally they finished the Interstate and bypassed the town. This was the early 1980s. That's what used to happen in the open in NJ. Far worse were other shithole towns in NJ that had a reputation for having police control the stoplights as you went thru town. They'd flip the light red, pull you over, arrest you, take you to court right then. "What you got there now, Seth", said the judge to the arresting police officer. That one I heard second hand, from a friend of mine, a person I "actually knew". Nothing an on-the-spot fine payment couldn't take care of. Simple petty graft. Done out in the open. For years. Just off an Interstate. Experiences like that give the entire justice system a bad name. Everyone knows what's going on, nobody does anything about it, even if they're not personally profiting from the corruption. It's that pesky blue wall of silence, elaborated in detail at the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence I lived in NYC in 1970. Was the stuff documented by the Knapp Commission made up? Was all of that stuff contemporaneously reported on TV and in the newspapers made up for ratings and circulation? Did I have to personally experience it before I was allowed to believe it? Unfortunately, one bad interaction with police negates 100 good interactions. Just like one bad meal at a restaurant can negate the 100 good meals you've previously had there. That's simple human nature.

plumednom 7y ago

Californian cops are basically mafia. A few years ago I had posted something on Facebook about a crooked cop in California who had been cleared in two suspicious killings though they found he had planted guns on his victims, had been arrested for attacking another cop when he pulled him over for a DUI. The cop himself was never fired or sent to jail. Anyways, I posted this on Facebook and accidentally made it public. 2 days later, this 60 year retired murderer was stalking me on facebook, linkedin, etc. A week later I was pulled over on a warrant for a speeding ticket I'd paid years before, and had to go through an incredible amount of hoops to get it cleared up (even though I still had proof I'd paid it).

aidenn0 7y ago

> One thing that is clear: Many of the officers on the state’s secret convictions list who are still working today likely wouldn’t be cops in other states. That's not how it always works. The officers pled to misdemeanors because they knew they could keep their jobs with a misdemeanor. In other states they would plea to a non-criminal charge instead, or manage to not get convicted at all. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

willyt 7y ago

Cops should lose their jobs if they commit crime. But, recklessness, drinking and domestic violence are common symptoms of PTSD. Police see a lot of bad stuff. Maybe the police department should look after their people better before their officer’s conduct gets out of hand.