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Nonsense! The actual Dutch cure for stress is to claim you have "burnout" (they use the English word), and then take 6 months off work while being paid 80% of y

Nonsense! The actual Dutch cure for stress is to claim you have "burnout" (they use the English word), and then take 6 months off work while being paid 80% of your salary. Honestly, after working for 6 years in the Netherlands, I don't know of another country that has such good working conditions [1], while having so many people in low stress professional jobs taking time off for burnout. There seems zero social or professional stigma about it. - In Australia, I knew of just one person, a teacher. There they called it a "nervous breakdown". - In the UK, I struggle to think of any, after 9 years working here. - In the Netherlands, probably 30% of my Dutch colleagues had had time off for burnout at some point in their career. [1] At the Dutch bank I worked for, most of the Dutch staff worked 4 day weeks: take a 10% pay cut, have Fridays off, and nominally work an hour longer on the other 4 days. In practice, they still arrived late so they could drop their kids at school, left early for same reason, took a full hour for lunch, and most days everyone stopped for 30 minutes mid-morning because it was someone's birthday. Nearly the only people who worked full 5-day weeks were the expats.

goranb 7y ago
Seems like they have it figured out. Time for the rest of us to catch up.
gok 7y ago
Sounds like few working hours leads to burnout.
theraido 7y ago
Work and an NGO, expats are never in on Fridays. Just us IT folks, working our 40 hours. Making a specific amount of hours or working hard doesn't cause burnout most of the time.
jlengrand 7y ago
Burnout is only directly related to the amount of hours worked.
jypepin 7y ago
This. I worked in the NL for 3 years and this was the hardest thing to accept / adapt to when I arrived. The Dutch have a completely different approach to work, which to us American, could seem like they just don't care. I still remember dealing with a real estate agent (known to usually be hustling in US) who wouldn't work weekends or after hours to have us visit a house we wanted to buy. Nonsense! :) And I also know a lot of people who had burnouts - while working in conditions that seemed... very good and not stressful.
- maxerickson 7y ago
  How is the compensation for the real estate agent structured? The housing market there is so tight I would think they don't really need to ever chase a buyer.
  - jypepin 7y ago
    In our case similar to the US, but the commission is probably smaller. Agents in SF work on non-business hours despite the market being tighter than Amsterdam, so I'm not sure if this is relevant.
- Fnoord 7y ago
  > And I also know a lot of people who had burnouts - while working in conditions that seemed... very good and not stressful. Yeah, it is always other people who seem to have great working conditions. It is strange that other people even get stress. The book "Bullshit Jobs" sings a different narrative, and these are seemingly everywhere. Real estate agent, is one of these (FIRE sector).
amoron 7y ago
> There seems zero social or professional stigma about it. Actually, I think there is some stigma but we are prohibited from discussing it publicly due to modern values. Burnout is bound to have some negative impact on career opportunities as one is unlikely to regain their status and responsibilities on return.
- flyGuyOnTheSly 7y ago
  That seems fair. If you are apt to go missing for 6 months every other year for whatever reason, an employer wouldn't invest a lot of expensive training in you.
- 0xfaded 7y ago
  I've heard the same thing said behind closed doors about paternity leave in Denmark.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
openstep 7y ago
American here living in the Netherlands for the past seven years. The one thing I've noticed about folks taking these burnout sessions is that some absolutely take advantage of the system. Multiple people have told me firsthand that they're on burnout just because they want to be. Not because they're burned out. It goes so far that they lie during the mandatory therapy session provided by their employer in order to stay on burnout. Feels a bit unfair for the companies that have to buy burnout insurance. Having said that, I think it's a great benefit of working for a Dutch company. Assuming you really have a burnout! If you don't have a burnout but you don't want to work so much then go 4 days a week. This is super common in the Netherlands. Anyway, Dutch society in general really care about the well-being of their people. I suppose a few people taking advantage of the system is just the cost of living.
- ianai 7y ago
  A reason I support things like that is, in part, the same reason Congress sanctioned OT above 40 hours of work. It incentivizes hiring more people.
- RC_ITR 7y ago
  I mean, what is “burnout” other than not wanting to work? Maybe they’re just saying that to you because they assume (as an expat) that you don’t share their value system?
  - rantwasp 7y ago
    oh wow. i think burnout is more complicated than “i don’t want to work”. way more complicated.
    - djmips 7y ago
      But someone who is burned out might save face by saying that it's just that 'I don't want to work'
      - beerandt 7y ago
hellofunk 7y ago
> In the Netherlands, probably 30% of my Dutch colleagues had had time off for burnout at some point in their career. That sounds accurate, because a report released just this week found that about a third of all Americans suffer burnout in their jobs[0]. At least the Dutch are doing something about it. [0] https://www.studyfinds.org/the-new-normal-over-a-third-of-americans-battle-job-burnout-every-week/ https://www.studyfinds.org/the-new-normal-over-a-third-of-am...
- DavideNL 7y ago
  14% of the Dutch have burn-out symptoms (1 out of 7) according to: Dutch newspaper: https://www.volkskrant.nl/de-gids/hoe-opgebrand-is-nederland~b968b1bd/ https://www.volkskrant.nl/de-gids/hoe-opgebrand-is-nederland... which cites : https://www.volksgezondheidenzorg.info/onderwerp/overspannenheid-en-burn-out/cijfers-context/huidige-situatie#!node-prevalentie-zelfgerapporteerde-burn-out-bij-werknemers https://www.volksgezondheidenzorg.info/onderwerp/overspannen... Note that having burn-out symptoms is not equal to 100% burn-out and unable to work.
rnentjes 7y ago
This must mean nothing gets done right? Guess again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_hour_worked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)... Netherlands is number 5.
- Udik 7y ago
  That's the wrong measure, though: it's probable that productivity lowers with each further working hour, but you do still produce something. Americans still produce 10% more per hour and work 25% more hours.
isoprophlex 7y ago
Work smarter, not harder.
Kaotique 7y ago
I worked in the same IT company for many years now and wile it's true that many people have experienced burnout and had time off. It really depends on the situation if they come back or not. In the Netherlands they have to offer a permanent contract after 2 years in the same company. If you experience burnout before you have a permanent contract then usually the person leaves the company. But if you are there longer, have a permanent contract and play an important role in the company then you usually return step by step, slowly increasing your hours and days back to normal over the period of a couple months. Just taking 6 months off without a return schedule sounds like a scam to be me and for most employers would put you on the track out.
Kaotique 7y ago
Working part-time has become very accepted here in the Netherlands. And that is not only women but more and more men started working part-time now. Especially 32 or 36 hours is very popular.
- markus92 7y ago
  36 is fulltime in more and more sectors now (healthcare for example).
bbddg 7y ago
Exactly, most American workers don't have the luxury of taking an hour out of their day to go for a bike ride. Another key difference in the Netherlands is that 84% of workers are covered by a collective bargaining agreement. Workers coming together to make demands from Capital is the only way to achieve these working conditions.
newswasboring 7y ago
I work in Netherlands since the beginning of this year. Previous to this I worked in one of the biggest south east Asian companies. The culture shock was real. But over the year I realized how they get the same amount of work done as my previous colleagues. Another argument for "time is bullshit measure for knowledge industry". And from what I understand the burnout argument is valid and actually helps a team. I'm in a industry where small mistakes can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I would rather someone stop working rather than mess other people's work up.
the-dude 7y ago
And that is why you had a very nice tax relief.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ta091119 7y ago
Yep. I'm an expat in the Netherlands and I've never seen a more relaxed working environment. It's great, and I have great respect for the Dutch for how they look after their well being, the beauty of their cities and their nature. On the other hand, I have a feeling that most of the jobs here are proper bullshit jobs: from office jobs, where you'll find deluges of junior designers and copywriters and customer journey experts; to cafes, where 4 waiters are hardly doing the work of one; to supermarkets where there seem to be constantly more employees moving stuff around than customers. Obviously there is a lot of money in the country. I wonder what will happen in case of a downturn: I have a feeling that if the money stops flowing, a lot of people will discover that their jobs weren't necessary at all.
- tgv 7y ago
  There's a shortage of those workers, so that can't be true. I do agree there are way too many people doing "something in communication", and that waiters don't always work very streamlined, to say it politely.
Fnoord 7y ago
> Nonsense! The actual Dutch cure for stress is to claim you have "burnout" (they use the English word), and then take 6 months off work while being paid 80% of your salary. Which does not work very well if you don't earn much. Expats who come to The Netherlands generally earn a lot. If you earn a lot, you'll easier work hard. It is much easier, as your downtime (leisure time) involves less stress. The whole system where you could work a while and then go "uitkering trekken" got on retour after it was indeed abused in the 70s/80s. It is extremely tricky to have a fair system without false positives and false negatives. Slowly but surely, the right wing governments have indeed drawn your narrative which hurt those who are in need. > There seems zero social or professional stigma about it. As my (Dutch) partner had a burnout, and I witnessed this first-hand, this statement quite frankly angers me. There absolutely is social stigma and professional stigma around burnout. Nobody, in fact, understood her. They all thought she "had to man up", including her best friends, her mother, her sister, etc. You know what causes stress? Emotional overload from work. Working in the night instead of the day. Being bullied. Being poor (including inkomensnivellering). The thing is, that in your country, when people fail they are just regarded as weak or "not trying hard enough" (queue American Dream). No empathy, whatsoever. Here it is called for what it is: burnout.
- miken123 7y ago
  > Expats who come to The Netherlands generally earn a lot. Not in the last place because they are highly subsidized by not having to pay any taxes over 30% of their salary. In return for that, they post not very insightful comments like this on HN. Mocking people's mental issues in public literally costs lives. Hope the thread starter realizes that somewhere.
  - stevesimmons 7y ago
    You suggest I lack perspective. I worked in the Netherlands for 6 years as a start-up founder, as a management consultant to Dutch companies and the Dutch subsidiaries of international companies, and was on the management team of a business unit of one of the big Dutch banks during a major takeover. I can compare that to my working experience in Australia, UK, and the US. I have also worked in France and New Zealand. I love the Dutch way of life (it is the closest I have found in Europe to my native Australia) and I am nearly fluent in their language. My partner, who is native Dutch, also had time off for burnout. In his case, following bullying by a partner at a top-tier US law firm. So I understand the context, understand very well that some people have genuine reasons for stepping back from work, and also understand that accepting burnout too readily gives some people an easy way to simply have a paid holiday.
irrespective 7y ago
And yet despite all that gasp lost productivity (how dare people take care of their family!) the Netherlands is still a pretty nice place to live. Maybe the rest of the world should follow suit.
- dang 7y ago
  Could you please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not post in the flamewar style to HN? We're trying to avoid that here.

goranb 7y ago

Seems like they have it figured out. Time for the rest of us to catch up.

gok 7y ago

Sounds like few working hours leads to burnout.

theraido 7y ago

Work and an NGO, expats are never in on Fridays. Just us IT folks, working our 40 hours. Making a specific amount of hours or working hard doesn't cause burnout most of the time.

jlengrand 7y ago

Burnout is only directly related to the amount of hours worked.

jypepin 7y ago

This. I worked in the NL for 3 years and this was the hardest thing to accept / adapt to when I arrived. The Dutch have a completely different approach to work, which to us American, could seem like they just don't care. I still remember dealing with a real estate agent (known to usually be hustling in US) who wouldn't work weekends or after hours to have us visit a house we wanted to buy. Nonsense! :) And I also know a lot of people who had burnouts - while working in conditions that seemed... very good and not stressful.

maxerickson 7y ago
How is the compensation for the real estate agent structured? The housing market there is so tight I would think they don't really need to ever chase a buyer.
- jypepin 7y ago
  In our case similar to the US, but the commission is probably smaller. Agents in SF work on non-business hours despite the market being tighter than Amsterdam, so I'm not sure if this is relevant.
Fnoord 7y ago
> And I also know a lot of people who had burnouts - while working in conditions that seemed... very good and not stressful. Yeah, it is always other people who seem to have great working conditions. It is strange that other people even get stress. The book "Bullshit Jobs" sings a different narrative, and these are seemingly everywhere. Real estate agent, is one of these (FIRE sector).

amoron 7y ago

> There seems zero social or professional stigma about it. Actually, I think there is some stigma but we are prohibited from discussing it publicly due to modern values. Burnout is bound to have some negative impact on career opportunities as one is unlikely to regain their status and responsibilities on return.

flyGuyOnTheSly 7y ago
That seems fair. If you are apt to go missing for 6 months every other year for whatever reason, an employer wouldn't invest a lot of expensive training in you.
0xfaded 7y ago
I've heard the same thing said behind closed doors about paternity leave in Denmark.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

openstep 7y ago

American here living in the Netherlands for the past seven years. The one thing I've noticed about folks taking these burnout sessions is that some absolutely take advantage of the system. Multiple people have told me firsthand that they're on burnout just because they want to be. Not because they're burned out. It goes so far that they lie during the mandatory therapy session provided by their employer in order to stay on burnout. Feels a bit unfair for the companies that have to buy burnout insurance. Having said that, I think it's a great benefit of working for a Dutch company. Assuming you really have a burnout! If you don't have a burnout but you don't want to work so much then go 4 days a week. This is super common in the Netherlands. Anyway, Dutch society in general really care about the well-being of their people. I suppose a few people taking advantage of the system is just the cost of living.

ianai 7y ago
A reason I support things like that is, in part, the same reason Congress sanctioned OT above 40 hours of work. It incentivizes hiring more people.
RC_ITR 7y ago
I mean, what is “burnout” other than not wanting to work? Maybe they’re just saying that to you because they assume (as an expat) that you don’t share their value system?
- rantwasp 7y ago
  oh wow. i think burnout is more complicated than “i don’t want to work”. way more complicated.
  - djmips 7y ago
    But someone who is burned out might save face by saying that it's just that 'I don't want to work'
    - beerandt 7y ago

hellofunk 7y ago

> In the Netherlands, probably 30% of my Dutch colleagues had had time off for burnout at some point in their career. That sounds accurate, because a report released just this week found that about a third of all Americans suffer burnout in their jobs[0]. At least the Dutch are doing something about it. [0] https://www.studyfinds.org/the-new-normal-over-a-third-of-americans-battle-job-burnout-every-week/ https://www.studyfinds.org/the-new-normal-over-a-third-of-am...

DavideNL 7y ago
14% of the Dutch have burn-out symptoms (1 out of 7) according to: Dutch newspaper: https://www.volkskrant.nl/de-gids/hoe-opgebrand-is-nederland~b968b1bd/ https://www.volkskrant.nl/de-gids/hoe-opgebrand-is-nederland... which cites : https://www.volksgezondheidenzorg.info/onderwerp/overspannenheid-en-burn-out/cijfers-context/huidige-situatie#!node-prevalentie-zelfgerapporteerde-burn-out-bij-werknemers https://www.volksgezondheidenzorg.info/onderwerp/overspannen... Note that having burn-out symptoms is not equal to 100% burn-out and unable to work.

rnentjes 7y ago

This must mean nothing gets done right? Guess again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_hour_worked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)... Netherlands is number 5.

Udik 7y ago
That's the wrong measure, though: it's probable that productivity lowers with each further working hour, but you do still produce something. Americans still produce 10% more per hour and work 25% more hours.

isoprophlex 7y ago

Work smarter, not harder.

Kaotique 7y ago

I worked in the same IT company for many years now and wile it's true that many people have experienced burnout and had time off. It really depends on the situation if they come back or not. In the Netherlands they have to offer a permanent contract after 2 years in the same company. If you experience burnout before you have a permanent contract then usually the person leaves the company. But if you are there longer, have a permanent contract and play an important role in the company then you usually return step by step, slowly increasing your hours and days back to normal over the period of a couple months. Just taking 6 months off without a return schedule sounds like a scam to be me and for most employers would put you on the track out.

Kaotique 7y ago

Working part-time has become very accepted here in the Netherlands. And that is not only women but more and more men started working part-time now. Especially 32 or 36 hours is very popular.

markus92 7y ago
36 is fulltime in more and more sectors now (healthcare for example).

bbddg 7y ago

Exactly, most American workers don't have the luxury of taking an hour out of their day to go for a bike ride. Another key difference in the Netherlands is that 84% of workers are covered by a collective bargaining agreement. Workers coming together to make demands from Capital is the only way to achieve these working conditions.

newswasboring 7y ago

I work in Netherlands since the beginning of this year. Previous to this I worked in one of the biggest south east Asian companies. The culture shock was real. But over the year I realized how they get the same amount of work done as my previous colleagues. Another argument for "time is bullshit measure for knowledge industry". And from what I understand the burnout argument is valid and actually helps a team. I'm in a industry where small mistakes can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I would rather someone stop working rather than mess other people's work up.

the-dude 7y ago

And that is why you had a very nice tax relief.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

ta091119 7y ago

Yep. I'm an expat in the Netherlands and I've never seen a more relaxed working environment. It's great, and I have great respect for the Dutch for how they look after their well being, the beauty of their cities and their nature. On the other hand, I have a feeling that most of the jobs here are proper bullshit jobs: from office jobs, where you'll find deluges of junior designers and copywriters and customer journey experts; to cafes, where 4 waiters are hardly doing the work of one; to supermarkets where there seem to be constantly more employees moving stuff around than customers. Obviously there is a lot of money in the country. I wonder what will happen in case of a downturn: I have a feeling that if the money stops flowing, a lot of people will discover that their jobs weren't necessary at all.

tgv 7y ago
There's a shortage of those workers, so that can't be true. I do agree there are way too many people doing "something in communication", and that waiters don't always work very streamlined, to say it politely.

Fnoord 7y ago

> Nonsense! The actual Dutch cure for stress is to claim you have "burnout" (they use the English word), and then take 6 months off work while being paid 80% of your salary. Which does not work very well if you don't earn much. Expats who come to The Netherlands generally earn a lot. If you earn a lot, you'll easier work hard. It is much easier, as your downtime (leisure time) involves less stress. The whole system where you could work a while and then go "uitkering trekken" got on retour after it was indeed abused in the 70s/80s. It is extremely tricky to have a fair system without false positives and false negatives. Slowly but surely, the right wing governments have indeed drawn your narrative which hurt those who are in need. > There seems zero social or professional stigma about it. As my (Dutch) partner had a burnout, and I witnessed this first-hand, this statement quite frankly angers me. There absolutely is social stigma and professional stigma around burnout. Nobody, in fact, understood her. They all thought she "had to man up", including her best friends, her mother, her sister, etc. You know what causes stress? Emotional overload from work. Working in the night instead of the day. Being bullied. Being poor (including inkomensnivellering). The thing is, that in your country, when people fail they are just regarded as weak or "not trying hard enough" (queue American Dream). No empathy, whatsoever. Here it is called for what it is: burnout.

miken123 7y ago
> Expats who come to The Netherlands generally earn a lot. Not in the last place because they are highly subsidized by not having to pay any taxes over 30% of their salary. In return for that, they post not very insightful comments like this on HN. Mocking people's mental issues in public literally costs lives. Hope the thread starter realizes that somewhere.
- stevesimmons 7y ago
  You suggest I lack perspective. I worked in the Netherlands for 6 years as a start-up founder, as a management consultant to Dutch companies and the Dutch subsidiaries of international companies, and was on the management team of a business unit of one of the big Dutch banks during a major takeover. I can compare that to my working experience in Australia, UK, and the US. I have also worked in France and New Zealand. I love the Dutch way of life (it is the closest I have found in Europe to my native Australia) and I am nearly fluent in their language. My partner, who is native Dutch, also had time off for burnout. In his case, following bullying by a partner at a top-tier US law firm. So I understand the context, understand very well that some people have genuine reasons for stepping back from work, and also understand that accepting burnout too readily gives some people an easy way to simply have a paid holiday.

irrespective 7y ago

And yet despite all that gasp lost productivity (how dare people take care of their family!) the Netherlands is still a pretty nice place to live. Maybe the rest of the world should follow suit.

dang 7y ago
Could you please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not post in the flamewar style to HN? We're trying to avoid that here.