44 ms·

I find this really interesting. I'm wondering if this is a cultural thing. I didn't interpret the list as being a set of instructions at all. More of an expres

I find this really interesting. I'm wondering if this is a cultural thing. I didn't interpret the list as being a set of instructions at all. More of an expression of an opinion on what people should do. You read it, learn, incorporate it into your working life. It happens to be that I pretty much agree with it all, but if I didn't, I wouldn't find myself consulting the list to decide whether I should or shouldn't say something. If someone 'called me out' on a 'violation' of this document, I'm not sure how I'd respond. Probably with laughter? I honestly don't know, perhaps I'm just in a bubble. We can discuss as adults, if there's a problem with my communication I want to know. I don't want to be pointed at the rule book, this isn't primary school.

commandlinefan 7y ago
> I'm not sure how I'd respond That might depend on whether or not you were worried about losing your job over it.
- esotericn 7y ago
  Right, hence my comment. I wouldn't be worried at all. It feels like a different working culture (or country). It seems like one of those cultural things, like how Europeans and Americans have inverse views on the severity of sex and violence. I think you may have even misinterpreted my comment as me thinking I'm somehow "above the rules" or whatever, even. It's not that. It's that it would have literally never crossed my mind that my continued employment would be related to how I behave in relation to this document. In my personal life I left behind that sort of 'rules lawyering' when I left school. No job I've ever held has actually functioned like that. The closest I've been is working at a large accounting firm, but even there most people had a mutual understanding that the 'book' (a lot more official than this post) was just a CYA fluff document invented to keep certain people busy and certain other people happy.
  - bonoboTP 7y ago
    I also wonder this when looking at the "Workplace" Stack Exchange site or at Reddit's /r/legaladvice. So much CYA stuff, "you must collect a paper trail", "email yourself your recollection of the situation, so it's time stamped", how quickly you can become a liability for HR and how much companies are scared of getting sued for, to me, frivolous reasons. Sure this also exists in corporate Europe, but it seems America is more "robotic" in this respect. Well, they'd just call it being professional I guess.
    - icebraining 7y ago
      Eh, many of the questions in Workplace are about FUBAR situations. It makes sense to take extreme measures in those cases.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  Sure, but I think that is itself the cultural thing. I'll take your word for it that some people experience this, but the idea that anyone would fear being fired for missing fiddly details of a document like this is completely foreign to me. I've never seen a code review checklist that people followed even 75% of.
  - reificator 7y ago
    > I'll take your word for it that some people experience this, but the idea that anyone would fear being fired for missing fiddly details of a document like this is completely foreign to me. There is currently a very public example of this going on at Stack Exchange over a code of conduct that was still in review status. https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/336526/stack-overflow-is-doing-me-ongoing-harm-its-time-to-fix-it https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/336526/stack-overfl...
    - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
      Yes, that's a good example of what's completely foreign to me. I don't have time to trawl through all the details of the story you linked, but it's incomprehensible to me why Stack Exchange would do what's described here, and I've multiple times made negative comments about a proposed set of rules without facing or fearing punishment.
      - reificator 7y ago
        > I don't have time to trawl through all the details of the story you linked Having done so myself out of morbid curiosity (and a sense of "there must be another side of the story that we're not getting"[0]) I would not suggest it. It's a rabbit hole that, as far as I can tell, leads back to the post I linked as the most accurate summary of the situation. [0]: If there is, I have yet to find it after hours and hours of time wasted.
munchbunny 7y ago
> If someone 'called me out' on a 'violation' of this document, I'm not sure how I'd respond. Probably with laughter? I honestly don't know, perhaps I'm just in a bubble. Let's say, hypothetically, because this is neither you nor me, that I wrote something like "Were you paying attention in CS100?" to a dumb mistake in your pull request. We all slip sometimes, so generally these shouldn't be big deals. Quick fix and move on. You said to me: "Hey, in your last code review you openly insulted my competence by saying '______'. Please don't do that." I responded: "No, you deserved that for the type of mistake you made." I know 1-2 developers personally who would genuinely believe that. I've encountered far more here and on Reddit that would as well. I think the real versions of us would both agree that the hypothetical me is being a jerk. Having a guideline that says "Don't criticize the person" gives you a way to take this up your managerial chain with a specific problem, as opposed to a general statement of "munchbunny was being a jerk." While you might not need this in order to manage the situation, I know of several fresh college grads who have not yet learned the communication and political skills to manage this, and so having a document spelling it out is helpful for both teaching and enforcement, even if the line items are not explicitly rules.
- bonoboTP 7y ago
  So managers are supposed to be part time kindergarten nannies now? Is this really something that happens to an extent where educated adults cannot resolve such issues among themselves? This is again a situation that's just hard for me to imagine, from both sides.
  - munchbunny 7y ago
    > So managers are supposed to be part time kindergarten nannies now? If their employees act like children, then yes. And I'm pretty sure we can all come up with examples of adults acting like children.
  - potta_coffee 7y ago
    In my management experience, I've spent much more time dealing with people's stupid, childish bullshit than doing "real" work.

commandlinefan 7y ago

> I'm not sure how I'd respond That might depend on whether or not you were worried about losing your job over it.

esotericn 7y ago
Right, hence my comment. I wouldn't be worried at all. It feels like a different working culture (or country). It seems like one of those cultural things, like how Europeans and Americans have inverse views on the severity of sex and violence. I think you may have even misinterpreted my comment as me thinking I'm somehow "above the rules" or whatever, even. It's not that. It's that it would have literally never crossed my mind that my continued employment would be related to how I behave in relation to this document. In my personal life I left behind that sort of 'rules lawyering' when I left school. No job I've ever held has actually functioned like that. The closest I've been is working at a large accounting firm, but even there most people had a mutual understanding that the 'book' (a lot more official than this post) was just a CYA fluff document invented to keep certain people busy and certain other people happy.
- bonoboTP 7y ago
  I also wonder this when looking at the "Workplace" Stack Exchange site or at Reddit's /r/legaladvice. So much CYA stuff, "you must collect a paper trail", "email yourself your recollection of the situation, so it's time stamped", how quickly you can become a liability for HR and how much companies are scared of getting sued for, to me, frivolous reasons. Sure this also exists in corporate Europe, but it seems America is more "robotic" in this respect. Well, they'd just call it being professional I guess.
  - icebraining 7y ago
    Eh, many of the questions in Workplace are about FUBAR situations. It makes sense to take extreme measures in those cases.
SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
Sure, but I think that is itself the cultural thing. I'll take your word for it that some people experience this, but the idea that anyone would fear being fired for missing fiddly details of a document like this is completely foreign to me. I've never seen a code review checklist that people followed even 75% of.
- reificator 7y ago
  > I'll take your word for it that some people experience this, but the idea that anyone would fear being fired for missing fiddly details of a document like this is completely foreign to me. There is currently a very public example of this going on at Stack Exchange over a code of conduct that was still in review status. https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/336526/stack-overflow-is-doing-me-ongoing-harm-its-time-to-fix-it https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/336526/stack-overfl...
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    Yes, that's a good example of what's completely foreign to me. I don't have time to trawl through all the details of the story you linked, but it's incomprehensible to me why Stack Exchange would do what's described here, and I've multiple times made negative comments about a proposed set of rules without facing or fearing punishment.
    - reificator 7y ago
      > I don't have time to trawl through all the details of the story you linked Having done so myself out of morbid curiosity (and a sense of "there must be another side of the story that we're not getting"[0]) I would not suggest it. It's a rabbit hole that, as far as I can tell, leads back to the post I linked as the most accurate summary of the situation. [0]: If there is, I have yet to find it after hours and hours of time wasted.

munchbunny 7y ago

> If someone 'called me out' on a 'violation' of this document, I'm not sure how I'd respond. Probably with laughter? I honestly don't know, perhaps I'm just in a bubble. Let's say, hypothetically, because this is neither you nor me, that I wrote something like "Were you paying attention in CS100?" to a dumb mistake in your pull request. We all slip sometimes, so generally these shouldn't be big deals. Quick fix and move on. You said to me: "Hey, in your last code review you openly insulted my competence by saying '______'. Please don't do that." I responded: "No, you deserved that for the type of mistake you made." I know 1-2 developers personally who would genuinely believe that. I've encountered far more here and on Reddit that would as well. I think the real versions of us would both agree that the hypothetical me is being a jerk. Having a guideline that says "Don't criticize the person" gives you a way to take this up your managerial chain with a specific problem, as opposed to a general statement of "munchbunny was being a jerk." While you might not need this in order to manage the situation, I know of several fresh college grads who have not yet learned the communication and political skills to manage this, and so having a document spelling it out is helpful for both teaching and enforcement, even if the line items are not explicitly rules.

bonoboTP 7y ago
So managers are supposed to be part time kindergarten nannies now? Is this really something that happens to an extent where educated adults cannot resolve such issues among themselves? This is again a situation that's just hard for me to imagine, from both sides.
- munchbunny 7y ago
  > So managers are supposed to be part time kindergarten nannies now? If their employees act like children, then yes. And I'm pretty sure we can all come up with examples of adults acting like children.
- potta_coffee 7y ago
  In my management experience, I've spent much more time dealing with people's stupid, childish bullshit than doing "real" work.