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Assuming this semantic distinction holds, what are the practical consequences? How do you find "consulting" clients? In fact, what is even the shape of a "cons

Assuming this semantic distinction holds, what are the practical consequences? How do you find "consulting" clients? In fact, what is even the shape of a "consulting" engagement in software development, where I am telling the client what to do, instead of doing what I'm told? Do clients hire consultants to build software without knowing at least something about what software needs to be built? Not trying to put up a strawman here, it's just that I've seen this distinction made elsewhere, but not clear on how it plays out in practice. I suspect the line between "consultant" and "contractor" isn't that bold.

kthejoker2 7y ago
> Do clients hire consultants to build software without knowing at least something about what software needs to be built? Yes? All the time. "I've heard about this thing called machine learning. Come assess how I can use it in my business." "We have a problem where orders are missing their commit dates and we need something built to find those earlier in our procurement process. Maybe our new cloud ERP can help...?" So they have some degree of knowledge around the success criteria (what) and the value (why) but even those need to be shaped up and agreed upon. And then the design considerations, approaches, tradeoffs, constraints, risks, options, etc. (the how) is somewhere between directionally correct and nonexistent.
- JamesBarney 7y ago
  It seems to me you find people who have a vague idea of what project they want built the same way you find people who have a fleshed out idea of what project they want built. And I'd much rather find people who have fleshed out idea of what they want to purchase. They seem to much more reliably and quickly pull the trigger. Imagine you're selling ERP systems and you have a client who says "we need an ERP system that has features X,Y, and Z" versus "we think we need sometype of system to manage our business" Which client do you prioritize? Every good sales person in the world will tell you the first one.
  - rpeden 7y ago
    True, if you're selling ERP systems. If you're selling ERP consulting where you go in and help clients figure out what they actually need, client #2 would be a better prospect because client #1 doesn't need your services. :)
    - JamesBarney 7y ago
      That's definitely true that you want to be selling what your client is buying :). But even in that circumstance I'd rather approach a lead that says "We need a consultant to come for a week look over our processes, and help us decide between these three ERP based on this criteria" :).
      - rpeden 7y ago
        That's fair, and your scenario is probably a good fit for a solo consultant. Companies who have no clue what to do but have a pile of money to burn tend to bring in big blue-chip consulting firms.
        JamesBarney 7y ago
        I worked at Accenture, Avanade, a 100 person consulting company before starting my own with a couple of friends. And pretty much every time the client brought us in they had a pretty good idea what they wanted. Sometimes we'd be able to find problems the customer didn't know they had or solutions they didn't think about but that was almost never the reason for the original engagement.
  - monknomo 7y ago
    It's usually more "We think we need some type of system to manage our business, please deliver a white paper and presentation comparing options, and then stand by to design the option we choose"
    - JamesBarney 7y ago
BrentOzar 7y ago
> Do clients hire consultants to build software without knowing at least something about what software needs to be built? Absolutely - that's what I do in the database realm. One common request is, "How should I re-architect this system to fix the problems we're having today?" Another common one is, "How should we be storing this data to retrieve it more quickly?" This type of work tends to be very senior, very architectural. Another way to think about it is by billable rate - at my rate, clients don't want to pay me to do the work. They just want to bring me in for short periods to tell them what work needs to be done, and how, and they have their existing teams (or contractors) execute the plan. It's not usually cost-effective to hire me to do it (although, for the right teams and projects, I cut deals.)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

kthejoker2 7y ago

> Do clients hire consultants to build software without knowing at least something about what software needs to be built? Yes? All the time. "I've heard about this thing called machine learning. Come assess how I can use it in my business." "We have a problem where orders are missing their commit dates and we need something built to find those earlier in our procurement process. Maybe our new cloud ERP can help...?" So they have some degree of knowledge around the success criteria (what) and the value (why) but even those need to be shaped up and agreed upon. And then the design considerations, approaches, tradeoffs, constraints, risks, options, etc. (the how) is somewhere between directionally correct and nonexistent.

JamesBarney 7y ago
It seems to me you find people who have a vague idea of what project they want built the same way you find people who have a fleshed out idea of what project they want built. And I'd much rather find people who have fleshed out idea of what they want to purchase. They seem to much more reliably and quickly pull the trigger. Imagine you're selling ERP systems and you have a client who says "we need an ERP system that has features X,Y, and Z" versus "we think we need sometype of system to manage our business" Which client do you prioritize? Every good sales person in the world will tell you the first one.
- rpeden 7y ago
  True, if you're selling ERP systems. If you're selling ERP consulting where you go in and help clients figure out what they actually need, client #2 would be a better prospect because client #1 doesn't need your services. :)
  - JamesBarney 7y ago
    That's definitely true that you want to be selling what your client is buying :). But even in that circumstance I'd rather approach a lead that says "We need a consultant to come for a week look over our processes, and help us decide between these three ERP based on this criteria" :).
    - rpeden 7y ago
      That's fair, and your scenario is probably a good fit for a solo consultant. Companies who have no clue what to do but have a pile of money to burn tend to bring in big blue-chip consulting firms.
      - JamesBarney 7y ago
        I worked at Accenture, Avanade, a 100 person consulting company before starting my own with a couple of friends. And pretty much every time the client brought us in they had a pretty good idea what they wanted. Sometimes we'd be able to find problems the customer didn't know they had or solutions they didn't think about but that was almost never the reason for the original engagement.
- monknomo 7y ago
  It's usually more "We think we need some type of system to manage our business, please deliver a white paper and presentation comparing options, and then stand by to design the option we choose"
  - JamesBarney 7y ago

BrentOzar 7y ago

> Do clients hire consultants to build software without knowing at least something about what software needs to be built? Absolutely - that's what I do in the database realm. One common request is, "How should I re-architect this system to fix the problems we're having today?" Another common one is, "How should we be storing this data to retrieve it more quickly?" This type of work tends to be very senior, very architectural. Another way to think about it is by billable rate - at my rate, clients don't want to pay me to do the work. They just want to bring me in for short periods to tell them what work needs to be done, and how, and they have their existing teams (or contractors) execute the plan. It's not usually cost-effective to hire me to do it (although, for the right teams and projects, I cut deals.)

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]