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You don't necessarily know what's going on in the US, for example: http://jwz.livejournal.com/745986.html http://jwz.livejournal.com/745986.html I'm not claimi

by paul 19y ago

You don't necessarily know what's going on in the US, for example: http://jwz.livejournal.com/745986.html http://jwz.livejournal.com/745986.html I'm not claiming that the US and China are the same, btw, just that it's not a matter of absolutes. In this country freedom is violated in the interests of Disney and such.

gibsonf1 19y ago
Can you give one example of a person put in jail or executed for their political views in the US? One example of government forced censorship? The difference between the US govt. and the Chinese is more than black and white. You have the right to disagree with US policies - try complaining about Chinese politcal policies in China and see what happens. This issue has no gray. The case shown in your posted link is not an example of political persecution against the ISP. We have no information on the reason for the request by the FBI, so I won't speculate. Even with an FBI gag order, the person made the whole case public and went to court. Try that in China.
- paul 19y ago
  The great thing about secrecy is that you never really know what's going on. Exactly who is in Guantanamo or the secret CIA prisons, and why? Do you honestly believe that prosecutions, FBI investigations, etc are never politically motivated?
  - gibsonf1 19y ago
    I have 0 evidence of anyone jailed or killed for their political beliefs in this country. Do you have any?
    - comatose_kid 19y ago
      Tell that to the people in this documentary (or their parents). Wonder if you'd still be saying that if it was your son in jail.... Take a look at: http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=310 http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=310 There's audio, and here's a direct link to the written transcript of the episode: http://www.thislife.org/extras/radio/310_transcript.pdf http://www.thislife.org/extras/radio/310_transcript.pdf An excerpt: "As best as we can tell, Badr Zaman Badr and his brother were imprisoned in Guantanamo for three years for telling a joke. Actually, for telling two jokes." I guess on second thought you are absolutely correct. These people weren't jailed in gitmo for their political beliefs after all - they just landed there because the US govt decided to listen to some random guy who was upset at being the target of their humor.
      - gibsonf1 19y ago
        Your examples are foreigners in a time of war. The interview asks them why they were detained without any other information from other sources on their case. I think most people you ask in prison will say they are innocent. In any case, this is not an example of a US citizen being put in jail etc for political reasons. Also, the main point here is that even if the US were prosecuting people for their politics, which they are not, it would not make what Google is doing any better. What Google is doing is directly aiding in the political prosecution of people in China, and nothing makes this right. I think I've said now more than enough, and so I withdraw from this thread.
        comatose_kid 19y ago
        I wasn't discussing what the main point of this thread is. I was responding to the statement you made 'I have 0 evidence of anyone jailed or killed for their political beliefs in this country. Do you have any?' Withdraw if you like. I'm normally not one to get into political/ideological debates, but a statement like this deserves to be challenged. Yes, my examples are foreigners in a time of war. But, you said 'anyone', not US Citizens. But even if you ignore this (which I wouldn't really - a society should be judged by how it treats humans regardless of which country they happen to be a part of), you are still misguided. How about Martin Luther King being jailed for anti-segregation protests? Does that count to your re-framed question? I don't know if this could happen today (although the stage seems to be set with the wonderfully named Patriot Act which among other things has a section 215 which allows the FBI to search your library records), but the fact that it happened only a few decades ago should make you think twice before uttering blanket statements.
  - busy_beaver 19y ago
    "Exactly who is in Guantanamo or the secret CIA prisons, and why?" Well, not you, and not anyone you know. The mere fact that you're comfortable posting this stuff on a public site, under your own name, demonstrates that you have ZERO fear that someone will break down your door tonight and take you off to a "secret prison". To be quite blunt: you don't even believe your own bullshit.
    - pg 19y ago
      This is not reddit. Be polite.
      - busy_beaver 19y ago
        The gratuitous U.S. bashing in this thread looks exactly like something you'd see on Reddit (more likely, Digg). Not only is it ugly, it's utterly irrelevant to the nominal topic of discussion. Even if the U.S. were Nazi Germany, the Stalinist U.S.S.R., and the Pol Pot regime rolled into one, it would have zero relevance to the ethical position of Google with the Chinese government. I suppose I could have said that Paul B.'s position (and that of several others) is a classic example of the tu quoque variety of ad hominem fallacy, but that would basically just be using Latin to say the same thing.
        busy_beaver 19y ago
        Ah, and I see my original post has been modded down to zero, in the classic Digg-style mob rule fashion. I'm outta here.
        paul 19y ago
        My point is that no place is perfect and that different countries have different problems. It's not US bashing to suggest that we are not perfect, and that everything isn't black and white.
- nostrademons 19y ago
  I was just in China on vacation last November, and in terms of the atmosphere in public places, the U.S. almost seems like more of a police state than China is. Some examples: I had mistakenly packed scissors (y'know, sharp pointy things?) in my carry-on when passing through the Beijing airport. The security guard said, politely and apologetically, "I'm sorry, I can't let you take these on the plain." On the trip back through Chicago/O'hare, a woman was yelled at and pulled out of line for having hand lotion. There are no announcements in Chinese airports saying "By order of the TSA, no liquids may be carried on board flights, and all persons are subject to search by uniformed TSA officers." There are no announcements in Chinese subways saying "Safety is our number one concern here on the MBTA, and so we ask you to report any suspicious persons or packages to the nearest MBTA employee." People are not manhandled and pulled off trains for talking about explosions, as happened to the person sitting next to me yesterday. Chinese people can and do criticize their government all they want - verbally. Several people we met told us "Yeah, the government censorship is disgraceful, but it takes time to change things like that." When we visited a Taoist temple in Hong Kong, there were Falun Gong posters all over the place. China's certainly not perfect, and overall I think its political freedom is somewhat less than the U.S. The Chinese media is still very much controlled by the state, and people can have reprisals made against them for things they say in print. The Internet is censored, as everyone knows by now. China lacks the culture of dissent that the U.S. has, so many people seem accultured to political passivity. China leads the world in executions, though it's worth noting that only it, Iran, and Saudi Arabia have more executions than the U.S. But it absolutely is a matter of degrees. China is not that much worse than the U.S. is. And China's velocity is at least in the right direction: if the U.S. continues the course it's been on since 2001, within 5 years it will be a far more repressive regime than China.
  - gibsonf1 19y ago
    You probably didn't talk to jailed dissidents, the families of executed political prisoners, the mothers who 's babys were killed because they went beyond the child quota, the people who were forbidden to have another child, the prisoners forced to work in factories, the prisoners killed to have their organs harvested, etc. Vacation is one thing, but the evil of the government is well documented. Hong Kong used to be the freest country in the world prior to 1997, and it enjoyed one of the greatest generations of wealth in the world because of that freedom. Even their money was privately minted. I was fortunate enough to visit before the hand over, and what an amazing place it was. That tradition of freedom still lingers, but is being snuffed out. Those posters hidden away in the temple would have been out in the streets in the earlier freer days. Technology, like the search engine provided by Google, is giving the government the power to keep the masses from doing what they should do - overthrow the repressive regime. Another Tiannamen square will come, and the regime will use any and all force to subdue it. Their only principle is maintaining power - that has been their history and present and future until they loose power. Comparing this to the US system is dramatically misunderstanding and utterly taking for granted the amazing freedom we have and the reasons for it. The difference is in kind, not degree.
- timg 19y ago
  I usually sidestep political discussions.. But you have got to be kidding me.

by paul 19y ago

gibsonf1 19y ago

Can you give one example of a person put in jail or executed for their political views in the US? One example of government forced censorship? The difference between the US govt. and the Chinese is more than black and white. You have the right to disagree with US policies - try complaining about Chinese politcal policies in China and see what happens. This issue has no gray. The case shown in your posted link is not an example of political persecution against the ISP. We have no information on the reason for the request by the FBI, so I won't speculate. Even with an FBI gag order, the person made the whole case public and went to court. Try that in China.

paul 19y ago
The great thing about secrecy is that you never really know what's going on. Exactly who is in Guantanamo or the secret CIA prisons, and why? Do you honestly believe that prosecutions, FBI investigations, etc are never politically motivated?
- gibsonf1 19y ago
  I have 0 evidence of anyone jailed or killed for their political beliefs in this country. Do you have any?
  - comatose_kid 19y ago
    Tell that to the people in this documentary (or their parents). Wonder if you'd still be saying that if it was your son in jail.... Take a look at: http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=310 http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=310 There's audio, and here's a direct link to the written transcript of the episode: http://www.thislife.org/extras/radio/310_transcript.pdf http://www.thislife.org/extras/radio/310_transcript.pdf An excerpt: "As best as we can tell, Badr Zaman Badr and his brother were imprisoned in Guantanamo for three years for telling a joke. Actually, for telling two jokes." I guess on second thought you are absolutely correct. These people weren't jailed in gitmo for their political beliefs after all - they just landed there because the US govt decided to listen to some random guy who was upset at being the target of their humor.
    - gibsonf1 19y ago
      Your examples are foreigners in a time of war. The interview asks them why they were detained without any other information from other sources on their case. I think most people you ask in prison will say they are innocent. In any case, this is not an example of a US citizen being put in jail etc for political reasons. Also, the main point here is that even if the US were prosecuting people for their politics, which they are not, it would not make what Google is doing any better. What Google is doing is directly aiding in the political prosecution of people in China, and nothing makes this right. I think I've said now more than enough, and so I withdraw from this thread.
      - comatose_kid 19y ago
        I wasn't discussing what the main point of this thread is. I was responding to the statement you made 'I have 0 evidence of anyone jailed or killed for their political beliefs in this country. Do you have any?' Withdraw if you like. I'm normally not one to get into political/ideological debates, but a statement like this deserves to be challenged. Yes, my examples are foreigners in a time of war. But, you said 'anyone', not US Citizens. But even if you ignore this (which I wouldn't really - a society should be judged by how it treats humans regardless of which country they happen to be a part of), you are still misguided. How about Martin Luther King being jailed for anti-segregation protests? Does that count to your re-framed question? I don't know if this could happen today (although the stage seems to be set with the wonderfully named Patriot Act which among other things has a section 215 which allows the FBI to search your library records), but the fact that it happened only a few decades ago should make you think twice before uttering blanket statements.
- busy_beaver 19y ago
  "Exactly who is in Guantanamo or the secret CIA prisons, and why?" Well, not you, and not anyone you know. The mere fact that you're comfortable posting this stuff on a public site, under your own name, demonstrates that you have ZERO fear that someone will break down your door tonight and take you off to a "secret prison". To be quite blunt: you don't even believe your own bullshit.
  - pg 19y ago
    This is not reddit. Be polite.
    - busy_beaver 19y ago
      The gratuitous U.S. bashing in this thread looks exactly like something you'd see on Reddit (more likely, Digg). Not only is it ugly, it's utterly irrelevant to the nominal topic of discussion. Even if the U.S. were Nazi Germany, the Stalinist U.S.S.R., and the Pol Pot regime rolled into one, it would have zero relevance to the ethical position of Google with the Chinese government. I suppose I could have said that Paul B.'s position (and that of several others) is a classic example of the tu quoque variety of ad hominem fallacy, but that would basically just be using Latin to say the same thing.
      - busy_beaver 19y ago
        Ah, and I see my original post has been modded down to zero, in the classic Digg-style mob rule fashion. I'm outta here.
      - paul 19y ago
        My point is that no place is perfect and that different countries have different problems. It's not US bashing to suggest that we are not perfect, and that everything isn't black and white.
nostrademons 19y ago
I was just in China on vacation last November, and in terms of the atmosphere in public places, the U.S. almost seems like more of a police state than China is. Some examples: I had mistakenly packed scissors (y'know, sharp pointy things?) in my carry-on when passing through the Beijing airport. The security guard said, politely and apologetically, "I'm sorry, I can't let you take these on the plain." On the trip back through Chicago/O'hare, a woman was yelled at and pulled out of line for having hand lotion. There are no announcements in Chinese airports saying "By order of the TSA, no liquids may be carried on board flights, and all persons are subject to search by uniformed TSA officers." There are no announcements in Chinese subways saying "Safety is our number one concern here on the MBTA, and so we ask you to report any suspicious persons or packages to the nearest MBTA employee." People are not manhandled and pulled off trains for talking about explosions, as happened to the person sitting next to me yesterday. Chinese people can and do criticize their government all they want - verbally. Several people we met told us "Yeah, the government censorship is disgraceful, but it takes time to change things like that." When we visited a Taoist temple in Hong Kong, there were Falun Gong posters all over the place. China's certainly not perfect, and overall I think its political freedom is somewhat less than the U.S. The Chinese media is still very much controlled by the state, and people can have reprisals made against them for things they say in print. The Internet is censored, as everyone knows by now. China lacks the culture of dissent that the U.S. has, so many people seem accultured to political passivity. China leads the world in executions, though it's worth noting that only it, Iran, and Saudi Arabia have more executions than the U.S. But it absolutely is a matter of degrees. China is not that much worse than the U.S. is. And China's velocity is at least in the right direction: if the U.S. continues the course it's been on since 2001, within 5 years it will be a far more repressive regime than China.
- gibsonf1 19y ago
  You probably didn't talk to jailed dissidents, the families of executed political prisoners, the mothers who 's babys were killed because they went beyond the child quota, the people who were forbidden to have another child, the prisoners forced to work in factories, the prisoners killed to have their organs harvested, etc. Vacation is one thing, but the evil of the government is well documented. Hong Kong used to be the freest country in the world prior to 1997, and it enjoyed one of the greatest generations of wealth in the world because of that freedom. Even their money was privately minted. I was fortunate enough to visit before the hand over, and what an amazing place it was. That tradition of freedom still lingers, but is being snuffed out. Those posters hidden away in the temple would have been out in the streets in the earlier freer days. Technology, like the search engine provided by Google, is giving the government the power to keep the masses from doing what they should do - overthrow the repressive regime. Another Tiannamen square will come, and the regime will use any and all force to subdue it. Their only principle is maintaining power - that has been their history and present and future until they loose power. Comparing this to the US system is dramatically misunderstanding and utterly taking for granted the amazing freedom we have and the reasons for it. The difference is in kind, not degree.
timg 19y ago
I usually sidestep political discussions.. But you have got to be kidding me.