18 ms·

NSW Digital Driver Licence

135 points by stockkid 7y ago

mkj 7y ago
The QR code updates - is that online or using a "secret" stored on the phone? Sounds fun for the <18 kids.
- Qqqwxs 7y ago
  May I ask what this would make easier for <kids? I can think of clubs scannings IDs, but scanners only store identification details for some period of time, until they're deleted, and not compared against a database. [0] A spoofable/transferable QR code could contain all the information normally scanned on a license plus information unique to each code refresh. I'd love to hear what the other implications of this could be if I'm missing something. [0] https://www.liquorandgaming.nsw.gov.au/operating-a-business/liquor-licences/liquor-licence-conditions-and-precincts/id-scanners https://www.liquorandgaming.nsw.gov.au/operating-a-business/...
  - mkj 7y ago
    I was thinking if they're used offline at a bottle shop, it's a lot easier to seamlessly alter a date of birth or photo on a phone app than a physical license. Also makes it easier to share an older sibling's ID.
    - Nextgrid 7y ago
      Not really. If the offline license is in a digital format (QR code, etc) it can still be checked whether it’s been signed by a trusted authority (the state’s digital certificate, etc). So you can very well have an offline system where the documents are signed during enrolment but then stored offline.
      - mkj 7y ago
        Only if the trusted authority sends back a copy of all the details too, and person at the counter looks at those instead. Otherwise the altered app can show a different photo to that which was enrolled, etc. The signature is on bytes, not the offline visual representation.
      - angry_octet 7y ago
        Unfortunately that does not seem to be what they have done, i.e. no signatures involved.
        Nextgrid 7y ago
        In this case it’s a problem with the current implementation, but does not prevent a proper implementation from existing in the future.
stien 7y ago
Cool! Norway recently launched this as well https://www.vegvesen.no/en/driving-licences/driving-licence-holders/digital-driving-licence https://www.vegvesen.no/en/driving-licences/driving-licence-...
lukeqsee 7y ago
> It’s illegal to access your Digital Driver Licence when driving, including when stationary, unless you’re asked to do so by a police officer. Penalties apply. "We made this thing you only need while driving, especially when stationary and stopped by the police, but it's illegal to do so unless specifically requested." I wonder how this will be applied in reality. Will individuals stopped have to wait for the police to ask before readying their documentation without being cited in addition to whatever they were stopped for?
- skissane 7y ago
  > I wonder how this will be applied in reality. Will individuals stopped have to wait for the police to ask before readying their documentation without being cited in addition to whatever they were stopped for? That's what they've been telling people, yes. Honestly, it seems rather over the top legalism. I understand the point about the danger of using mobile devices while driving a moving vehicle. But, what exactly is the danger of using one when you are stationary, especially if you have been pulled over by a police officer? It is a law without a rational justification, and laws lacking rational justification are harmful.
  - lukeqsee 7y ago
    > I understand the point about the danger of using mobile devices while driving a moving vehicle. But, what exact is the danger of using one when you are stationary, especially if you have been pulled over by a police officer? It is a law without a rational justification, and laws lacking rational justification are harmful. This is the core of the issue, in my opinion.
    - zadokshi 7y ago
      The danger is loss of police revenue. In Australia it’s illegal to use your phone to pay at a McDonald’s drive through if your the one sitting in the drivers seat. Even if the car is in park.
      - 7y ago
afandian 7y ago
Can I use this without having a Google or Apple account? I guess the answer is no. It's crazy that we are allowing these duopolies to be the arbiters of so many critical functions. Arguments like this are the strongest for forced regulation and split up IMHO.
- roenxi 7y ago
  And - just to underline this point - drivers license is the de-facto Australian ID card. I can't think of an actual complaint against embedding US companies into what is in practice an important part of NSWs local governance; we might already do that credit and finance to some degree. But it just looks like another little step at creating a delicate system with single points of failure and unreasonably influential power-brokers.
  - afandian 7y ago
    All personal opinions: It comes down to alignment of incentives. Google (for the sake of argument) has got into so many facets of peoples' lives that it's hard to tell what's what. If you're percieved to have contravened one of the TOCs, or your credit card fails or something, you could have your account suspended with no recourse. And Google have shown time and again that they have zero interest in universal due process, fairness or customer service. That's fine - it's their business model and their call to make. But it is fundamentally out of step with the provision of essential services which should be afforded to all. And then add to that the fact that when it goes wrong it disproportionally affects those more vulnerable. It starts to look a lot like disenfranchisement of minorities. What if you suddenly have no phone or email, and that's your only way of communicating with your support network? What if Google decides to pull the plug on your phone and you don't have money to buy a new one? On the flip side, the government has a monopoly on welfare, violence, justice, etc. That's a good thing, and it's negotiated by democracy. However, using that monoploy to coerce people into using commercial duopolies is fundamentally anti-democratic.
    - hestefisk 7y ago
      Isn’t the TurboTax / Windows monopoly with the IRS a similar case? Defacto standard gone monopoly for digital tax returns. I agree that the government cannot lock consumers into duopolies but you still have a choice to go and get a piece of plastic. They also really don’t have a choice if the objective is digital convenience —- outside of Apple and Google, there really isn’t any competition. If there were a proper, open mobile platform with no vendor lock in, I am sure NSW would support that as well.
hndamien 7y ago
Is this a step towards more surveillance? I get that it doesn’t have to be, but surely it brings it closer, and easier to get there.
- _kbh_ 7y ago
  I feel like I am pretty security conscious and thought the same thing at first. but realistically isn't all this just data the government already has on us?.
  - hndamien 7y ago
    Sort of, it depends if they ask for extra permissions at some point in the future and there is not alternative option. I saw an Android screenshot showing requests for an insane amount of access - it may have been faked though.
- shakna 7y ago
  It might be a step towards the goals of the Face Verification Service project [0] of the Home Affairs office, which is a wide-reaching facial recognition service which seems to want to do things that aren't really possible with current technology. Eventually these services can be integrated, or they might already be trialing integration silently. > The Document Verification Service checks whether the personal information on an identity document matches the original record. Importantly this includes verification of the date of birth on Australian passports, driver licences and birth certificates. > The Face Verification Service complements the Document Verification Service by preventing the use of stolen as well as fake identity information. [0] [PDF] https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=903112ab-f5e9-4449-83fa-23793150dd62&subId=671954 https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=903112ab-f5e9-4...
Benjamin_Dobell 7y ago
Just happened to randomly stumble across a reverse engineering talk about this very app a couple of hours ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oux3tI2V0sY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oux3tI2V0sY
- lewi 7y ago
  Great talk, just finished it!
- oxplot 7y ago
  The crux of the issue is that the verification only tells you if the barcode is valid. However, there are no strong relationships between the barcode and the rest of the visual content (photo, numbers, dates, etc). Therefore, one can overlay malicious data around the barcode. The fix would be to allow the verifier to independently retrieve the license details after scanning the barcode, instead of just seeing a valid/invalid message.
  - willsr 7y ago
    This is precisely what the South Australian Digital ID does.
  - movedx 7y ago
    In Queensland, our Police carry iPad. They can basically look you up and get your details on that iPad. I would imagine NSW Police would have something similar: scan the barcode, it verifies it's correct, and then they compare the face on the phone to the one they get on their iPad.
    - oxplot 7y ago
      The police would surely have that, but the app allows verifying anyone else's digital ID as well. Imagine the post office checking your address before handing over a parcel, etc.
    - dhx 7y ago
      What is the point of each person holding a driver license at all (digital or otherwise) if the only thing that is trusted is the device of a police officer looking up an individual in a database and confirming a face match and/or passcode match? Could a police officer just ask "I need to look up your license in the database. What is your name, date of birth and passcode so I can find your face in the database and confirm you gave me the correct passcode?"
bloak 7y ago
Non-rhetorical question: What's the point of this? For many years it has been possible in many countries for a police officer to enter a vehicle's number plate and get details of the registered owner, including a photo, on the screen of their own device, one which they trust. If I'm driving a friend's car I could tell the police officer my name, the number plate of a vehicle that I am linked to or some other identifier and the officer could then look me up. Why should a driver need anything beyond a good enough memory to recite some kind of identifier? Someone who can't remember their own name arguably shouldn't be driving. I'm looking forward to the day when we won't need passports either. (I'm sure my great-grandchildren will find it much more convenient.) Perhaps the point of this is that it lets you give someone else, not a police officer, temporary read-access to a subset of the data on the server. Is that it perhaps? That could be useful. For example, to a club bouncer I might choose to reveal my photo and the fact that I'm over 18 without giving away my date of birth and my address, which would be shown on my physical driving licence. Potentially some interesting technical questions about how to stop people from using someone else's licence with the other person's collaboration: an older sibling's licence, for example.
- thelittleone 7y ago
  One benefit is ultimately there would be a few million less plastic cards produced. If it successful, perhaps others states / countries rollout something similar. That could be hundreds of millions fewer plastic cards produced. Admittedly this is unlikely a significant factor in the state governments decision making. Yet it’s a benefit all the same.
  - vokep 7y ago
    That sounds nice but is it really meaningful to cut such a small amount of waste? Consider all the other various cards which also might be digitized. Gov ID doesn't seem like the place to start, seems like maybe the one that should always have a physical form even if everything else has become digital.
- incompatible 7y ago
  One problem may be that not all roads have cell phone coverage, at least where I live, so a cop pulling you up may have no way to access an online database. It's also possible for the communications or back-end database to fail at any time.
rogerthat_au 7y ago
Drivers License as ID is used at a number of places in Australia including as age proof for venues serving alcohol, for phone connections and widely as a key KYC document. Carrying one less card is certainly welcome to remove the need for a wallet.
- toomanybeersies 7y ago
  That's great until your phone gets broken or runs out of battery. Personally, I like to keep my phone, wallet, and keys as three separate things.
kube-system 7y ago
Sounds like a creative way for law enforcement to get people to hand them their unlocked devices during a search.
- imglorp 7y ago
  There's an opportunity for mobile OSs to support this usecase with a "guest" account: lock the phone to a single app so you can hand it to a less trusted person. Also useful for toddlers gaming. The last Android version had a weak guest mode; the current one does not seem to.
  - Razengan 7y ago
    iOS has had "Guided Access" since almost forever. Not quite a guest account, but you can use the Accessibility shortcut (from the Control Center or triple-clicking the sleep button) to quickly prevent app switching before handing a device to someone. You can even use it to disable interaction with parts of the screen by drawing regions, or disable the hardware buttons, and set an autosleep timer. What operating systems really need though, is a "fake OS" mode. It should display an alternative launchpad with some random apps with random photos, notes, messages etc. When someone tries to do something it should stall with poor network connectivity dialogs or other fake issues. Maybe someone can make an app like that? :)
    - imglorp 7y ago
      Yeah, a "duress" mode. Maybe activated if you unlock with a different finger or PIN.
    - crystalPalace 7y ago
      The book Little Brother by Cory Doctorow mentions an innocuous home screen or desktop that is accessed via alternate password and I've always wanted to see it actually implemented.
    - nathancahill 7y ago
      There's various tweaks that enable this if you're jailbroken.
dgellow 7y ago
Looking at the conditions, this one is a bit odd: > It’s illegal to access your digital driver licence when driving, including when stationary, unless you’re asked to do so by a police officer. Penalties apply. So, does that mean that an officer can ask to see the license _while driving_? That's such a weird scenario! And the part "including when stationary", does that mean that you're allow to check your digital license if you're in your care, alone, parked somewhere, without any police officer around? Source: https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/campaign/nsw-digital-driver-licence/licence-holders-and-nsw-digital-driver-licence#conditions https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/campaign/nsw-digital-driver-l...
- maxden 7y ago
  You can only touch your phone if its secured and its for navigation so they are avoiding the problem when people are pulled over for using their mobile phone and saying they were getting their license ready etc. They have created a problem where people know not to touch their phone, but if you get pulled over and get your license ready you are breaking the no touch rule.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- wisty 7y ago
  "While driving" could mean you've stopped the car, but you haven't put it in park, applied the handbreak, and switched off the engine. The police are a bit vague at what constitutes "driving" because they want to fine people who check Facebook at traffic lights. An officer can ask for your license if they flag you over and you haven't totally stopped the car (thus you are legally "driving"), as long as you're being safe they just want to check for drunk drivers as quickly as possible. "License, how many drinks have you had tonight, count to 5, have a good night". Unlike America they don't need suspicion, they just flag over everyone they can on a Friday night. On the other hand an officer can fine you if you start playing on Facebook while the car is stopped but you're still legally "driving".
- toomanybeersies 7y ago
  It's illegal to use your phone while in command of a motor vehicle in NSW, regardless of whether you're moving or stationary. If you're parked you're fine, but if you're stopped at the lights, for instance, it's illegal.
theqult 7y ago
For a moment a read NSFW Driver Licence, it would be beautiful <3
- anticensor 7y ago
  NSW stands for the New South Wales, an autonomous state in Australia.
jwilliams 7y ago
There was talk the permissions used were a bit worrying: https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2019/10/nsws-digital-driver-licence-has-some-worrying-permissions/ https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2019/10/nsws-digital-driver-li... On Google Play it included access to Calendar, Camera, Photos, Location, Storage...
- shakna 7y ago
  And for some strange reason, the ability to pair with Bluetooth devices. Which I have no idea why it exists, I can't find a single service that the app has access to which would require that feature.
  - winter_blue 7y ago
    Probably to use Bluetooth beacons.
  - angry_octet 7y ago
    To communicate with Bluetooth readers instead of using QR code scanning.
  - willsr 7y ago
    This probably has something to do with the ISO 18013-5 standard. https://medium.com/@dkelts.id/mobile-driver-licenses-mdl-how-to-use-iso-18013-5-5a1bbc1a37a3 https://medium.com/@dkelts.id/mobile-driver-licenses-mdl-how...
- climb_stealth 7y ago
  The photo permission is to verify someone else's digital ID by capturing their QR code.
- Maxious 7y ago
  Google Play includes permissions that have been taken out in the latest version of an app https://twitter.com/ServiceNSW/status/1189390044273856513 https://twitter.com/ServiceNSW/status/1189390044273856513 IIRC a former developer explained (on reddit?) they explored other functionality like bluetooth LE verification rather than QR code
ape4 7y ago
Seems pretty easy to fake. Make an app that shows a photo and QA code.
- optevo 7y ago
  The code changes continually. Also the background moves when you tilt the phone.
  - Benjamin_Dobell 7y ago
    It's trivial to hack Android apps. Please see the reverse engineering talk link I posted a few comments up that demonstrates this very app being hacked. EDIT: Probably shouldn't single out Android. iOS apps can also be modified and resigned with a developer certificate.
  - shakna 7y ago
    In this [0] PyCon talk the app is reverse-engineered, and a version that produces a fake QR code that gets verified successfully is created. It would seem the current approach is fundamentally broken. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oux3tI2V0sY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oux3tI2V0sY
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  One word: signatures. All QR codes or whatever the phone is displaying or transmitting should be signed by a trusted authority. The checking device can verify whether it’s been signed. You can’t generate a valid signature unless you have access to the private key that’s supposed to be signing them.
excalibur 7y ago
From the rules linked here: https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/stayingsafe/mobilephones/know-the-rules.html https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/stayingsafe/mobileph... > Restricted licences holders including learner, P1 and P2 drivers and riders are not permitted to use their phone at all while driving or riding. This includes use of hands-free and Bluetooth functions. Am I misunderstanding this? Are they saying that teenagers with a learner's permit are prohibited from using their phones while riding in the passenger seat?
- ska 7y ago
  I think that refers to bicycle (and/or motorcycle?) riding - not being a passenger.
- TheCalicoCat 7y ago
  It's referring to motorbike riders.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
spelunker 7y ago
Colorado launched one recently as well, apparently the first US state to do it: https://mycolorado.state.co.us/ https://mycolorado.state.co.us/ As a CO resident I haven't really found a use for it yet. There's even a disclaimer to take your physical ID with you wherever you go.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  My state has digital insurance and registration cards. I guess this is the next logical step. But I do worry about when people get used to using these digital identification and then get pulled over after their phone battery dies or when their phone breaks on vacation or something. A simple traffic stop with a warning suddenly becomes a day in jail while the police "verify"a person's identity.
  - walshemj 7y ago
    There was a case in the UK recently where some one got a £500 fine on the train because their phone died and they could not show their electronic ticket. I was only after the press got involved that it was over turned.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
dualboot 7y ago
Why on earth would you install an app provided by a nation/state?!
- undersuit 7y ago
  Because it's obviously more secure than letting someone access a webpage with the same functionality. /s
angry_octet 7y ago
I can see digital imitations coming in 3,2,1... Starting by reversing and modifying the official app. The QR might not verify (assuming network connectivity), or it might be someone else, but will it be checked? Doubtful, because it only returns a name, not a photo. It is disappointing this is an online-only system. There is a continuation of a number of privacy violating practices, such as giving your DOB and driver's licence number to bars/clubs/venue security (often run by criminals, esp OLMCs). It should only show 18+ and a photo. NSW Govt will now know exactly who goes to which venue, in real time. Insane surveillance of the citizenry. Can't wait to see what data is in the real QR codes. Almost sounds like a TOTP code and a user/device serial number. Malware that rips these TOTP codes will be made and available to criminals in short order.
- shakna 7y ago
  > Starting by reversing and modifying the official app. The QR might not verify (assuming network connectivity), or it might be someone else, but will it be checked? Done, in August. [0] And the QR Code validates. > Can't wait to see what data is in the real QR codes. According to the talk, it's a timestamp, and id and what seems like a session-cookie-ish encrypted blob. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oux3tI2V0sY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oux3tI2V0sY
  - angry_octet 7y ago
    Does the app encrypt the blob? Presumably, because otherwise why have a serial. Wonder if they can fall victim to validate after decrypt attacks.
- hnick 7y ago
  I'm not sure it is online-only? They do say to carry your card as a backup but also say it works offline after initial setup: "The NSW Digital Driver Licence is available offline as long as you are logged into the Service NSW app" https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/campaign/nsw-digital-driver-licence/licence-holders-and-nsw-digital-driver-licence#conditions https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/campaign/nsw-digital-driver-l...
shirro 7y ago
I have had one of these for years in South Australia (app store release data may 2017). Our car rego is all digital as well which used to cause confusion interstate as we don't have rego stickers. I don't adopt a lot of digital technology like social media because I think it is of dubious value with potential risks but nfc payments and a digital licence lets me travel with just my phone which suits me really well. I hate carrying a wallet. One potential issue with having this on your phone is that you are unlocking your phone and handing it to the police which could be a problem for some people. Though people can still carry a card.
- jlebar 7y ago
  > One potential issue with having this on your phone is that you are unlocking your phone and handing it to the police FWIW Android has a (somewhat hidden) "pin app" function that prevents users from switching to a different app without entering the lock code.
  - shirro 7y ago
    Thanks. Just turned it on and learned how to use it. A few too many steps to the UI. I think I would prefer if an app like this was pinned from the moment it was opened.
  - austhrow743 7y ago
    Same with iphone. Accessibility settings -> Guided access. Can turn on a setting so that when you triple click the home button it locks use to that app until you unlock.
    - w-ll 7y ago
      Thank you for teaching me something today. Had no clue about this feature and it looks pretty interesting. That being said... while testing it I was able to escape to the Messages app by clicking a share btn in an app, or long pressing a link in a webkit ui object to share the link. From the Messages i was able to get to contacts and see contact info. If you create a 'new message' with an existing contact it will actually load all the previous messages for that contact. I assume it would also load group messages for a group as this behavior is present in normal messages mode. At first i didn't think images where loading, but if I scrolled up till it had to load in older messages it shows images Same for other apps that register in the share functionality. I was also able to go to the 'more' and enable other apps like Slack and One Note and was able to gather a lot of details from the dialogs they provide. Messages seams to have the most 'out of bounds' gonna play with this some more. I wanna also say I have a kinda older iPhone, running 12.1.4 in case some of this has been improved.
technion 7y ago
I've tried this out so I can report the experience. First, I can confirm the only permission requested is camera, and that's only when I first try to use the "scan a license" function. It seems like a Google Play bug that the play store allegedly shows legacy information if you click "permissions"[0] on the website, as these aren't reflected in the actual store. Secondly, being able to press a button and get shown my current demerits is extremely useful. Last time I wanted to check this I spent a good two hours on hold on the phone. My license expires in two weeks and this is the first I found out about it. Undoubtedly due to some bungle in the traditional system. I can see why people are concerned, and it's not going to be accepted in clubs for a while as the scanners physically won't fit a phone. (Having deployed those scanners a few years back, I'm frankly more concerned about their privacy situation than this app). [0] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=au.gov.nsw.service&hl=en_AU https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=au.gov.nsw.ser...
- shirro 7y ago
  Yes, I like being able to see my licence expiry, demerit and rego expiry all on one place. Our rego is all digital in SA and we don't have rego stickers. I have been getting text reminders for years but sometimes you just want to check when things expire without logging into a website and navigating through lots of layers. I expect NSW is the same but our app also takes boat licences, heavy vehicle licences, occupational licences as well as vehicle reg. I get that it isn't for everyone but it is a convenience. For comparison: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=au.gov.sa.my https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=au.gov.sa.my
hyperrail 7y ago
Here in the States, Delaware and other states have also been trying mobile driver's licenses. Alarmingly to me, it seems police officers might eventually be able to remotely access the driver's license information of a person with a mobile license when the officer is physically nearby the phone, though perhaps that is less bad than having to hand over and unlock the phone outright. You can learn more about the Delaware experiment from the same places I did: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FYUU4wP9s8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FYUU4wP9s8 - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/03/14/mobile-drivers-license-allow-police-ping-cellphones-delaware-pilot-study/423336002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/03/14/mo...
sk0g 7y ago
Wonder if this can be used as ID to get into clubs, etc? The page doesn't seem to mention it, but I doubt it would be.
- evolve2k 7y ago
  YES it can be. It’s there in the 3rd paragraph. “The NSW Digital Driver Licence is accepted by most pubs and clubs, and NSW Police.”
  - sk0g 7y ago
    Missed that completely, thank you! Now for a certain backwards northern state to implement this so I don't have to take my wallet into gigs and nights out at all...
contingencies 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_Australia
karthickgururaj 7y ago
India has something similar for driving licenses and many other documents: https://digilocker.gov.in/ https://digilocker.gov.in/
vajrapani666 7y ago
Some say that New Orleans is so far behind, that it's ahead. Definitely true. The information systems in SF all feel like they were built in 2010. I've had a digital ID (https://apps.apple.com/us/app/la-wallet/id1386930269 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/la-wallet/id1386930269) for over a year now and it's so much more convenient when I lose my actual ID -- about 4x/year. The LA wallet has a verification system that anyone can use to verify anyone else's ID. I was in SF for blockchain week last week and I misplaced by physical ID on the way to the airport. I wanted to see a friend of mine perform at a bar in Berkeley and they wanted a physical ID. I ended up eating tasty Nepalese food next door and met up with my friends after the show because there's no digital ID in California. Once I got back to New Orleans, no-one ever batted an eye when I showed them my digital ID. I'm hoping the next step is issuing a public/private key along with the ID. It would come in handy for so many blockchainy/dapp possibilities. I might be less ecstatic if I had a car and got pulled over and asked to show my ID. I wouldn't be comfortable handing my unlocked phone over to the state. I trust the internal walls of the mobile walled gardens more than I trust a cop.
- rahimnathwani 7y ago
  "I'm hoping the next step is issuing a public/private key along with the ID." If I need a key pair, I'd prefer to generate it myself. Otherwise, the private key isn't really private.
- smcl 7y ago
  You lose your ID 4x per year?! I lost my (British) passport once and later that same year it was in a bag that was stolen - I was warned that I wouldn't be issued with another one if it happened again. I am now super paranoid when I have to carry it, in fact now that I type this I realise I'm extra edgy because I'm about to leave for a trip in a few minutes with my passport :-O
  - jdsully 7y ago
    Most countries will forgive two lost passports within a 10 year period. After that they may refuse or give you limited duration documents. This is of course at the discretion of the country issuing the documents - but if they are overly generous it will cause problems with other countries expected to accept the documents. The main concern is they don't want a bunch of unaccounted for passports lying around. It dramatically increases the risk of fraud.
jmull3n 7y ago
One problem I have personally encountered is I am unable to obtain a digital form of identification while my license is suspended for a speeding offence. This is more annoying than not being able to drive as I still have to carry a wallet for the 1 remaining card I can't get on my iPhone.
- megablast 7y ago
  I have no problem with someone suspended for speeding having an extra piece of annoyance.
  - willbw 7y ago
    Really? I mean they already are suspended for driving, that is the punishment. This feels petty to me.
taksintikk 7y ago
> The NSW Digital Driver Licence is accepted by most pubs and clubs How to get user acceptance 101
quranicpower_27 7y ago
At this time blaming the partner is not the solution. You start to fight with your partner. Your trust in your partner vanishes. The bond of love gets broken. This is where marriage comes to an end. https://www.quranicpowers.com/dua-for-hardship-in-marriage/ https://www.quranicpowers.com/dua-for-hardship-in-marriage/
throwaway3714 7y ago
Accepting digital licences as identification in nightclubs in QLD is entirely optional. Seems counterproductive to have a half valid form of ID.
- throwaway3714 7y ago
  I should add that clubs here scan your ID which contains your full name and DOB, and can be used as half the proof required to open a bank account online.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  Isn’t accepting any ID in a nightclub already optional and at the discretion of the licensee? They can always turn people away as long as it’s not based on a protected category can’t they? How’s it any different to before?
  - throwaway3714 7y ago
    I get that, I was sober on a Wednesday at 4pm and the casino wouldn’t let me in.
gwbas1c 7y ago
I originally read this as "NSFW Drivers License" and thought it was going to be a funny link.
subsaharancoder 7y ago
Am I the only one who read the title in HN and saw "NSFW Digital Driver Licence"?
raver1975 7y ago
I imagine it's really trivial to download the Android APK, decompile it into it's source code, modify the code, and then push the modified app back on to the phone. You can be anyone you want to be. This idea does fall apart after the officer looks up the license number on his device. Do you think this would work at taverns?
- bobthepanda 7y ago
  In the US I’ve been to plenty of bars and grocery stores with ID scanners. I’d imagine this would be no different.

135 points by stockkid 7y ago

mkj 7y ago

The QR code updates - is that online or using a "secret" stored on the phone? Sounds fun for the <18 kids.

Qqqwxs 7y ago
May I ask what this would make easier for <kids? I can think of clubs scannings IDs, but scanners only store identification details for some period of time, until they're deleted, and not compared against a database. [0] A spoofable/transferable QR code could contain all the information normally scanned on a license plus information unique to each code refresh. I'd love to hear what the other implications of this could be if I'm missing something. [0] https://www.liquorandgaming.nsw.gov.au/operating-a-business/liquor-licences/liquor-licence-conditions-and-precincts/id-scanners https://www.liquorandgaming.nsw.gov.au/operating-a-business/...
- mkj 7y ago
  I was thinking if they're used offline at a bottle shop, it's a lot easier to seamlessly alter a date of birth or photo on a phone app than a physical license. Also makes it easier to share an older sibling's ID.
  - Nextgrid 7y ago
    Not really. If the offline license is in a digital format (QR code, etc) it can still be checked whether it’s been signed by a trusted authority (the state’s digital certificate, etc). So you can very well have an offline system where the documents are signed during enrolment but then stored offline.
    - mkj 7y ago
      Only if the trusted authority sends back a copy of all the details too, and person at the counter looks at those instead. Otherwise the altered app can show a different photo to that which was enrolled, etc. The signature is on bytes, not the offline visual representation.
    - angry_octet 7y ago
      Unfortunately that does not seem to be what they have done, i.e. no signatures involved.
      - Nextgrid 7y ago
        In this case it’s a problem with the current implementation, but does not prevent a proper implementation from existing in the future.

stien 7y ago

Cool! Norway recently launched this as well https://www.vegvesen.no/en/driving-licences/driving-licence-holders/digital-driving-licence https://www.vegvesen.no/en/driving-licences/driving-licence-...

lukeqsee 7y ago

> It’s illegal to access your Digital Driver Licence when driving, including when stationary, unless you’re asked to do so by a police officer. Penalties apply. "We made this thing you only need while driving, especially when stationary and stopped by the police, but it's illegal to do so unless specifically requested." I wonder how this will be applied in reality. Will individuals stopped have to wait for the police to ask before readying their documentation without being cited in addition to whatever they were stopped for?

skissane 7y ago
> I wonder how this will be applied in reality. Will individuals stopped have to wait for the police to ask before readying their documentation without being cited in addition to whatever they were stopped for? That's what they've been telling people, yes. Honestly, it seems rather over the top legalism. I understand the point about the danger of using mobile devices while driving a moving vehicle. But, what exactly is the danger of using one when you are stationary, especially if you have been pulled over by a police officer? It is a law without a rational justification, and laws lacking rational justification are harmful.
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  > I understand the point about the danger of using mobile devices while driving a moving vehicle. But, what exact is the danger of using one when you are stationary, especially if you have been pulled over by a police officer? It is a law without a rational justification, and laws lacking rational justification are harmful. This is the core of the issue, in my opinion.
  - zadokshi 7y ago
    The danger is loss of police revenue. In Australia it’s illegal to use your phone to pay at a McDonald’s drive through if your the one sitting in the drivers seat. Even if the car is in park.
    - 7y ago

afandian 7y ago

Can I use this without having a Google or Apple account? I guess the answer is no. It's crazy that we are allowing these duopolies to be the arbiters of so many critical functions. Arguments like this are the strongest for forced regulation and split up IMHO.

roenxi 7y ago
And - just to underline this point - drivers license is the de-facto Australian ID card. I can't think of an actual complaint against embedding US companies into what is in practice an important part of NSWs local governance; we might already do that credit and finance to some degree. But it just looks like another little step at creating a delicate system with single points of failure and unreasonably influential power-brokers.
- afandian 7y ago
  All personal opinions: It comes down to alignment of incentives. Google (for the sake of argument) has got into so many facets of peoples' lives that it's hard to tell what's what. If you're percieved to have contravened one of the TOCs, or your credit card fails or something, you could have your account suspended with no recourse. And Google have shown time and again that they have zero interest in universal due process, fairness or customer service. That's fine - it's their business model and their call to make. But it is fundamentally out of step with the provision of essential services which should be afforded to all. And then add to that the fact that when it goes wrong it disproportionally affects those more vulnerable. It starts to look a lot like disenfranchisement of minorities. What if you suddenly have no phone or email, and that's your only way of communicating with your support network? What if Google decides to pull the plug on your phone and you don't have money to buy a new one? On the flip side, the government has a monopoly on welfare, violence, justice, etc. That's a good thing, and it's negotiated by democracy. However, using that monoploy to coerce people into using commercial duopolies is fundamentally anti-democratic.
  - hestefisk 7y ago
    Isn’t the TurboTax / Windows monopoly with the IRS a similar case? Defacto standard gone monopoly for digital tax returns. I agree that the government cannot lock consumers into duopolies but you still have a choice to go and get a piece of plastic. They also really don’t have a choice if the objective is digital convenience —- outside of Apple and Google, there really isn’t any competition. If there were a proper, open mobile platform with no vendor lock in, I am sure NSW would support that as well.

hndamien 7y ago

Is this a step towards more surveillance? I get that it doesn’t have to be, but surely it brings it closer, and easier to get there.

_kbh_ 7y ago
I feel like I am pretty security conscious and thought the same thing at first. but realistically isn't all this just data the government already has on us?.
- hndamien 7y ago
  Sort of, it depends if they ask for extra permissions at some point in the future and there is not alternative option. I saw an Android screenshot showing requests for an insane amount of access - it may have been faked though.
shakna 7y ago
It might be a step towards the goals of the Face Verification Service project [0] of the Home Affairs office, which is a wide-reaching facial recognition service which seems to want to do things that aren't really possible with current technology. Eventually these services can be integrated, or they might already be trialing integration silently. > The Document Verification Service checks whether the personal information on an identity document matches the original record. Importantly this includes verification of the date of birth on Australian passports, driver licences and birth certificates. > The Face Verification Service complements the Document Verification Service by preventing the use of stolen as well as fake identity information. [0] [PDF] https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=903112ab-f5e9-4449-83fa-23793150dd62&subId=671954 https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=903112ab-f5e9-4...

Benjamin_Dobell 7y ago

Just happened to randomly stumble across a reverse engineering talk about this very app a couple of hours ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oux3tI2V0sY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oux3tI2V0sY

lewi 7y ago
Great talk, just finished it!
oxplot 7y ago
The crux of the issue is that the verification only tells you if the barcode is valid. However, there are no strong relationships between the barcode and the rest of the visual content (photo, numbers, dates, etc). Therefore, one can overlay malicious data around the barcode. The fix would be to allow the verifier to independently retrieve the license details after scanning the barcode, instead of just seeing a valid/invalid message.
- willsr 7y ago
  This is precisely what the South Australian Digital ID does.
- movedx 7y ago
  In Queensland, our Police carry iPad. They can basically look you up and get your details on that iPad. I would imagine NSW Police would have something similar: scan the barcode, it verifies it's correct, and then they compare the face on the phone to the one they get on their iPad.
  - oxplot 7y ago
    The police would surely have that, but the app allows verifying anyone else's digital ID as well. Imagine the post office checking your address before handing over a parcel, etc.
  - dhx 7y ago
    What is the point of each person holding a driver license at all (digital or otherwise) if the only thing that is trusted is the device of a police officer looking up an individual in a database and confirming a face match and/or passcode match? Could a police officer just ask "I need to look up your license in the database. What is your name, date of birth and passcode so I can find your face in the database and confirm you gave me the correct passcode?"

bloak 7y ago

Non-rhetorical question: What's the point of this? For many years it has been possible in many countries for a police officer to enter a vehicle's number plate and get details of the registered owner, including a photo, on the screen of their own device, one which they trust. If I'm driving a friend's car I could tell the police officer my name, the number plate of a vehicle that I am linked to or some other identifier and the officer could then look me up. Why should a driver need anything beyond a good enough memory to recite some kind of identifier? Someone who can't remember their own name arguably shouldn't be driving. I'm looking forward to the day when we won't need passports either. (I'm sure my great-grandchildren will find it much more convenient.) Perhaps the point of this is that it lets you give someone else, not a police officer, temporary read-access to a subset of the data on the server. Is that it perhaps? That could be useful. For example, to a club bouncer I might choose to reveal my photo and the fact that I'm over 18 without giving away my date of birth and my address, which would be shown on my physical driving licence. Potentially some interesting technical questions about how to stop people from using someone else's licence with the other person's collaboration: an older sibling's licence, for example.

thelittleone 7y ago
One benefit is ultimately there would be a few million less plastic cards produced. If it successful, perhaps others states / countries rollout something similar. That could be hundreds of millions fewer plastic cards produced. Admittedly this is unlikely a significant factor in the state governments decision making. Yet it’s a benefit all the same.
- vokep 7y ago
  That sounds nice but is it really meaningful to cut such a small amount of waste? Consider all the other various cards which also might be digitized. Gov ID doesn't seem like the place to start, seems like maybe the one that should always have a physical form even if everything else has become digital.
incompatible 7y ago
One problem may be that not all roads have cell phone coverage, at least where I live, so a cop pulling you up may have no way to access an online database. It's also possible for the communications or back-end database to fail at any time.

rogerthat_au 7y ago

Drivers License as ID is used at a number of places in Australia including as age proof for venues serving alcohol, for phone connections and widely as a key KYC document. Carrying one less card is certainly welcome to remove the need for a wallet.

toomanybeersies 7y ago
That's great until your phone gets broken or runs out of battery. Personally, I like to keep my phone, wallet, and keys as three separate things.

kube-system 7y ago

Sounds like a creative way for law enforcement to get people to hand them their unlocked devices during a search.

imglorp 7y ago
There's an opportunity for mobile OSs to support this usecase with a "guest" account: lock the phone to a single app so you can hand it to a less trusted person. Also useful for toddlers gaming. The last Android version had a weak guest mode; the current one does not seem to.
- Razengan 7y ago
  iOS has had "Guided Access" since almost forever. Not quite a guest account, but you can use the Accessibility shortcut (from the Control Center or triple-clicking the sleep button) to quickly prevent app switching before handing a device to someone. You can even use it to disable interaction with parts of the screen by drawing regions, or disable the hardware buttons, and set an autosleep timer. What operating systems really need though, is a "fake OS" mode. It should display an alternative launchpad with some random apps with random photos, notes, messages etc. When someone tries to do something it should stall with poor network connectivity dialogs or other fake issues. Maybe someone can make an app like that? :)
  - imglorp 7y ago
    Yeah, a "duress" mode. Maybe activated if you unlock with a different finger or PIN.
  - crystalPalace 7y ago
    The book Little Brother by Cory Doctorow mentions an innocuous home screen or desktop that is accessed via alternate password and I've always wanted to see it actually implemented.
  - nathancahill 7y ago
    There's various tweaks that enable this if you're jailbroken.

dgellow 7y ago

Looking at the conditions, this one is a bit odd: > It’s illegal to access your digital driver licence when driving, including when stationary, unless you’re asked to do so by a police officer. Penalties apply. So, does that mean that an officer can ask to see the license _while driving_? That's such a weird scenario! And the part "including when stationary", does that mean that you're allow to check your digital license if you're in your care, alone, parked somewhere, without any police officer around? Source: https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/campaign/nsw-digital-driver-licence/licence-holders-and-nsw-digital-driver-licence#conditions https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/campaign/nsw-digital-driver-l...

maxden 7y ago
You can only touch your phone if its secured and its for navigation so they are avoiding the problem when people are pulled over for using their mobile phone and saying they were getting their license ready etc. They have created a problem where people know not to touch their phone, but if you get pulled over and get your license ready you are breaking the no touch rule.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
wisty 7y ago
"While driving" could mean you've stopped the car, but you haven't put it in park, applied the handbreak, and switched off the engine. The police are a bit vague at what constitutes "driving" because they want to fine people who check Facebook at traffic lights. An officer can ask for your license if they flag you over and you haven't totally stopped the car (thus you are legally "driving"), as long as you're being safe they just want to check for drunk drivers as quickly as possible. "License, how many drinks have you had tonight, count to 5, have a good night". Unlike America they don't need suspicion, they just flag over everyone they can on a Friday night. On the other hand an officer can fine you if you start playing on Facebook while the car is stopped but you're still legally "driving".
toomanybeersies 7y ago
It's illegal to use your phone while in command of a motor vehicle in NSW, regardless of whether you're moving or stationary. If you're parked you're fine, but if you're stopped at the lights, for instance, it's illegal.

theqult 7y ago

For a moment a read NSFW Driver Licence, it would be beautiful <3

anticensor 7y ago
NSW stands for the New South Wales, an autonomous state in Australia.

jwilliams 7y ago

There was talk the permissions used were a bit worrying: https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2019/10/nsws-digital-driver-licence-has-some-worrying-permissions/ https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2019/10/nsws-digital-driver-li... On Google Play it included access to Calendar, Camera, Photos, Location, Storage...

shakna 7y ago
And for some strange reason, the ability to pair with Bluetooth devices. Which I have no idea why it exists, I can't find a single service that the app has access to which would require that feature.
- winter_blue 7y ago
  Probably to use Bluetooth beacons.
- angry_octet 7y ago
  To communicate with Bluetooth readers instead of using QR code scanning.
- willsr 7y ago
  This probably has something to do with the ISO 18013-5 standard. https://medium.com/@dkelts.id/mobile-driver-licenses-mdl-how-to-use-iso-18013-5-5a1bbc1a37a3 https://medium.com/@dkelts.id/mobile-driver-licenses-mdl-how...
climb_stealth 7y ago
The photo permission is to verify someone else's digital ID by capturing their QR code.
Maxious 7y ago
Google Play includes permissions that have been taken out in the latest version of an app https://twitter.com/ServiceNSW/status/1189390044273856513 https://twitter.com/ServiceNSW/status/1189390044273856513 IIRC a former developer explained (on reddit?) they explored other functionality like bluetooth LE verification rather than QR code

ape4 7y ago

Seems pretty easy to fake. Make an app that shows a photo and QA code.

optevo 7y ago
The code changes continually. Also the background moves when you tilt the phone.
- Benjamin_Dobell 7y ago
  It's trivial to hack Android apps. Please see the reverse engineering talk link I posted a few comments up that demonstrates this very app being hacked. EDIT: Probably shouldn't single out Android. iOS apps can also be modified and resigned with a developer certificate.
- shakna 7y ago
  In this [0] PyCon talk the app is reverse-engineered, and a version that produces a fake QR code that gets verified successfully is created. It would seem the current approach is fundamentally broken. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oux3tI2V0sY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oux3tI2V0sY
Nextgrid 7y ago
One word: signatures. All QR codes or whatever the phone is displaying or transmitting should be signed by a trusted authority. The checking device can verify whether it’s been signed. You can’t generate a valid signature unless you have access to the private key that’s supposed to be signing them.

excalibur 7y ago

From the rules linked here: https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/stayingsafe/mobilephones/know-the-rules.html https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/stayingsafe/mobileph... > Restricted licences holders including learner, P1 and P2 drivers and riders are not permitted to use their phone at all while driving or riding. This includes use of hands-free and Bluetooth functions. Am I misunderstanding this? Are they saying that teenagers with a learner's permit are prohibited from using their phones while riding in the passenger seat?

ska 7y ago
I think that refers to bicycle (and/or motorcycle?) riding - not being a passenger.
TheCalicoCat 7y ago
It's referring to motorbike riders.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

spelunker 7y ago

Colorado launched one recently as well, apparently the first US state to do it: https://mycolorado.state.co.us/ https://mycolorado.state.co.us/ As a CO resident I haven't really found a use for it yet. There's even a disclaimer to take your physical ID with you wherever you go.

reaperducer 7y ago
My state has digital insurance and registration cards. I guess this is the next logical step. But I do worry about when people get used to using these digital identification and then get pulled over after their phone battery dies or when their phone breaks on vacation or something. A simple traffic stop with a warning suddenly becomes a day in jail while the police "verify"a person's identity.
- walshemj 7y ago
  There was a case in the UK recently where some one got a £500 fine on the train because their phone died and they could not show their electronic ticket. I was only after the press got involved that it was over turned.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

dualboot 7y ago

Why on earth would you install an app provided by a nation/state?!

undersuit 7y ago
Because it's obviously more secure than letting someone access a webpage with the same functionality. /s

angry_octet 7y ago

I can see digital imitations coming in 3,2,1... Starting by reversing and modifying the official app. The QR might not verify (assuming network connectivity), or it might be someone else, but will it be checked? Doubtful, because it only returns a name, not a photo. It is disappointing this is an online-only system. There is a continuation of a number of privacy violating practices, such as giving your DOB and driver's licence number to bars/clubs/venue security (often run by criminals, esp OLMCs). It should only show 18+ and a photo. NSW Govt will now know exactly who goes to which venue, in real time. Insane surveillance of the citizenry. Can't wait to see what data is in the real QR codes. Almost sounds like a TOTP code and a user/device serial number. Malware that rips these TOTP codes will be made and available to criminals in short order.

shakna 7y ago
> Starting by reversing and modifying the official app. The QR might not verify (assuming network connectivity), or it might be someone else, but will it be checked? Done, in August. [0] And the QR Code validates. > Can't wait to see what data is in the real QR codes. According to the talk, it's a timestamp, and id and what seems like a session-cookie-ish encrypted blob. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oux3tI2V0sY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oux3tI2V0sY
- angry_octet 7y ago
  Does the app encrypt the blob? Presumably, because otherwise why have a serial. Wonder if they can fall victim to validate after decrypt attacks.
hnick 7y ago
I'm not sure it is online-only? They do say to carry your card as a backup but also say it works offline after initial setup: "The NSW Digital Driver Licence is available offline as long as you are logged into the Service NSW app" https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/campaign/nsw-digital-driver-licence/licence-holders-and-nsw-digital-driver-licence#conditions https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/campaign/nsw-digital-driver-l...

shirro 7y ago

I have had one of these for years in South Australia (app store release data may 2017). Our car rego is all digital as well which used to cause confusion interstate as we don't have rego stickers. I don't adopt a lot of digital technology like social media because I think it is of dubious value with potential risks but nfc payments and a digital licence lets me travel with just my phone which suits me really well. I hate carrying a wallet. One potential issue with having this on your phone is that you are unlocking your phone and handing it to the police which could be a problem for some people. Though people can still carry a card.

jlebar 7y ago
> One potential issue with having this on your phone is that you are unlocking your phone and handing it to the police FWIW Android has a (somewhat hidden) "pin app" function that prevents users from switching to a different app without entering the lock code.
- shirro 7y ago
  Thanks. Just turned it on and learned how to use it. A few too many steps to the UI. I think I would prefer if an app like this was pinned from the moment it was opened.
- austhrow743 7y ago
  Same with iphone. Accessibility settings -> Guided access. Can turn on a setting so that when you triple click the home button it locks use to that app until you unlock.
  - w-ll 7y ago
    Thank you for teaching me something today. Had no clue about this feature and it looks pretty interesting. That being said... while testing it I was able to escape to the Messages app by clicking a share btn in an app, or long pressing a link in a webkit ui object to share the link. From the Messages i was able to get to contacts and see contact info. If you create a 'new message' with an existing contact it will actually load all the previous messages for that contact. I assume it would also load group messages for a group as this behavior is present in normal messages mode. At first i didn't think images where loading, but if I scrolled up till it had to load in older messages it shows images Same for other apps that register in the share functionality. I was also able to go to the 'more' and enable other apps like Slack and One Note and was able to gather a lot of details from the dialogs they provide. Messages seams to have the most 'out of bounds' gonna play with this some more. I wanna also say I have a kinda older iPhone, running 12.1.4 in case some of this has been improved.

technion 7y ago

I've tried this out so I can report the experience. First, I can confirm the only permission requested is camera, and that's only when I first try to use the "scan a license" function. It seems like a Google Play bug that the play store allegedly shows legacy information if you click "permissions"[0] on the website, as these aren't reflected in the actual store. Secondly, being able to press a button and get shown my current demerits is extremely useful. Last time I wanted to check this I spent a good two hours on hold on the phone. My license expires in two weeks and this is the first I found out about it. Undoubtedly due to some bungle in the traditional system. I can see why people are concerned, and it's not going to be accepted in clubs for a while as the scanners physically won't fit a phone. (Having deployed those scanners a few years back, I'm frankly more concerned about their privacy situation than this app). [0] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=au.gov.nsw.service&hl=en_AU https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=au.gov.nsw.ser...

shirro 7y ago
Yes, I like being able to see my licence expiry, demerit and rego expiry all on one place. Our rego is all digital in SA and we don't have rego stickers. I have been getting text reminders for years but sometimes you just want to check when things expire without logging into a website and navigating through lots of layers. I expect NSW is the same but our app also takes boat licences, heavy vehicle licences, occupational licences as well as vehicle reg. I get that it isn't for everyone but it is a convenience. For comparison: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=au.gov.sa.my https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=au.gov.sa.my

hyperrail 7y ago

Here in the States, Delaware and other states have also been trying mobile driver's licenses. Alarmingly to me, it seems police officers might eventually be able to remotely access the driver's license information of a person with a mobile license when the officer is physically nearby the phone, though perhaps that is less bad than having to hand over and unlock the phone outright. You can learn more about the Delaware experiment from the same places I did: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FYUU4wP9s8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FYUU4wP9s8 - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/03/14/mobile-drivers-license-allow-police-ping-cellphones-delaware-pilot-study/423336002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/03/14/mo...

sk0g 7y ago

Wonder if this can be used as ID to get into clubs, etc? The page doesn't seem to mention it, but I doubt it would be.

evolve2k 7y ago
YES it can be. It’s there in the 3rd paragraph. “The NSW Digital Driver Licence is accepted by most pubs and clubs, and NSW Police.”
- sk0g 7y ago
  Missed that completely, thank you! Now for a certain backwards northern state to implement this so I don't have to take my wallet into gigs and nights out at all...

contingencies 7y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_Australia

karthickgururaj 7y ago

India has something similar for driving licenses and many other documents: https://digilocker.gov.in/ https://digilocker.gov.in/

vajrapani666 7y ago

Some say that New Orleans is so far behind, that it's ahead. Definitely true. The information systems in SF all feel like they were built in 2010. I've had a digital ID (https://apps.apple.com/us/app/la-wallet/id1386930269 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/la-wallet/id1386930269) for over a year now and it's so much more convenient when I lose my actual ID -- about 4x/year. The LA wallet has a verification system that anyone can use to verify anyone else's ID. I was in SF for blockchain week last week and I misplaced by physical ID on the way to the airport. I wanted to see a friend of mine perform at a bar in Berkeley and they wanted a physical ID. I ended up eating tasty Nepalese food next door and met up with my friends after the show because there's no digital ID in California. Once I got back to New Orleans, no-one ever batted an eye when I showed them my digital ID. I'm hoping the next step is issuing a public/private key along with the ID. It would come in handy for so many blockchainy/dapp possibilities. I might be less ecstatic if I had a car and got pulled over and asked to show my ID. I wouldn't be comfortable handing my unlocked phone over to the state. I trust the internal walls of the mobile walled gardens more than I trust a cop.

rahimnathwani 7y ago
"I'm hoping the next step is issuing a public/private key along with the ID." If I need a key pair, I'd prefer to generate it myself. Otherwise, the private key isn't really private.
smcl 7y ago
You lose your ID 4x per year?! I lost my (British) passport once and later that same year it was in a bag that was stolen - I was warned that I wouldn't be issued with another one if it happened again. I am now super paranoid when I have to carry it, in fact now that I type this I realise I'm extra edgy because I'm about to leave for a trip in a few minutes with my passport :-O
- jdsully 7y ago
  Most countries will forgive two lost passports within a 10 year period. After that they may refuse or give you limited duration documents. This is of course at the discretion of the country issuing the documents - but if they are overly generous it will cause problems with other countries expected to accept the documents. The main concern is they don't want a bunch of unaccounted for passports lying around. It dramatically increases the risk of fraud.

jmull3n 7y ago

One problem I have personally encountered is I am unable to obtain a digital form of identification while my license is suspended for a speeding offence. This is more annoying than not being able to drive as I still have to carry a wallet for the 1 remaining card I can't get on my iPhone.

megablast 7y ago
I have no problem with someone suspended for speeding having an extra piece of annoyance.
- willbw 7y ago
  Really? I mean they already are suspended for driving, that is the punishment. This feels petty to me.

taksintikk 7y ago

> The NSW Digital Driver Licence is accepted by most pubs and clubs How to get user acceptance 101

quranicpower_27 7y ago

At this time blaming the partner is not the solution. You start to fight with your partner. Your trust in your partner vanishes. The bond of love gets broken. This is where marriage comes to an end. https://www.quranicpowers.com/dua-for-hardship-in-marriage/ https://www.quranicpowers.com/dua-for-hardship-in-marriage/

throwaway3714 7y ago

Accepting digital licences as identification in nightclubs in QLD is entirely optional. Seems counterproductive to have a half valid form of ID.

throwaway3714 7y ago
I should add that clubs here scan your ID which contains your full name and DOB, and can be used as half the proof required to open a bank account online.
chrisseaton 7y ago
Isn’t accepting any ID in a nightclub already optional and at the discretion of the licensee? They can always turn people away as long as it’s not based on a protected category can’t they? How’s it any different to before?
- throwaway3714 7y ago
  I get that, I was sober on a Wednesday at 4pm and the casino wouldn’t let me in.

gwbas1c 7y ago

I originally read this as "NSFW Drivers License" and thought it was going to be a funny link.

subsaharancoder 7y ago

Am I the only one who read the title in HN and saw "NSFW Digital Driver Licence"?

raver1975 7y ago

I imagine it's really trivial to download the Android APK, decompile it into it's source code, modify the code, and then push the modified app back on to the phone. You can be anyone you want to be. This idea does fall apart after the officer looks up the license number on his device. Do you think this would work at taverns?

bobthepanda 7y ago
In the US I’ve been to plenty of bars and grocery stores with ID scanners. I’d imagine this would be no different.