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Those odd-looking security barriers
- Jamwinner 7y agoThere is an air of paranoia unique to the UK with these things. Not sure I have ever seen an anti-ramming device outside a few poles out fron of pawn and liquor shops in especially bad areas. Is the situation that bad to warrant what seem like military barriers? I am at a loss.
- goda90 7y agoI feel like bollards have an amazing effectiveness to intrusiveness ratio. They stop people from using vehicles to attack lots of people, but they don't really interfere with day to day living, or violate any privacy.
- chachachoney 7y agoThey are another incredibly expensive (security) theater prop.
- harimau777 7y agoCan you elaborate on this? It seems like they would be relatively inexpensive and effective at preventing a type of attack that would otherwise be fairly simple. That being the case I don't see much reason not to use them.
- namibj 7y agoGetting a 40ton truck isn't hard, and those are very difficult to shield against. Most deployments don't resist them. There are better ways, just look at military anti-tank bollards. Those will stop a truck, and archive what you want. They are also not as temporary, usually.
- chachachoney 7y agoUsing NYC as an example, how many casualties (which would have been prevented by bollards) happened before bollards became a fixture?
- jethro_tell 7y agoMuch like the only useful change in airport security. A better cockpit door and a protocol for it's use.
- aphextim 7y ago>They stop people from using vehicles to attack lots of people. This seems like a relatively new phenomenon in the past 10 years or so. That or maybe I just never would hear about the vehicle attacks prior and it is just more spoken about now. Regardless whether this is a new phenomenon at least they are taking steps to mitigate the impact of these types of attacks.
- reaperducer 7y agoThey've been around for a long time. I fractured my knee on one in Brussels in the 99's that looked like they'd been there for decades, if not centuries. I think they're more popular now because building owners are trying to keep their insurance rates down and there is an industry to take advantage of that.
- aphextim 7y agoI can see that, much like in the USA there were a ton of companies trying to profit off of the school shootings offering things like clear backpacks for every student, metal detectors at every entrance, video surveillance etc. I'm not saying that some of these companies don't want to help prevent another tragedy or mitigate them, however there are a ton of companies trying to make a quick buck off of people emotional and suffering from a tragedy. Some form of detection/protection is nice, but I feel that we shouldn't have to button down every school and treat it like Ft. Knox either. Schools can hardly afford after school programs, much less hi-tech security systems/operators.
- jwalton 7y ago> They stop people from using vehicles to attack lots of people They don't just stop using vehicles as weapons. It's important they also stop vehicles which are out of control from colliding with pedestrians, or drivers who are having a stroke, or just messy accidents from spilling over into pedestrian areas. There was a nasty accident here in Ottawa in January where a double-decker city bus collided with an overhang at a bus station. Three people died and many more were injured. There was a great deal of focus in the media about improving the crash worthiness of buses for occupants on the upper deck, but a simple line of bollards at the front of the station would have saved lives by preventing the upper level of the bus from colliding with the station in the first place.
- tobylane 7y agoI’m not sure it’s paranoia, it’s pedestrian protection. Various attacks in London, Berlin and other places have been trucks driven onto pedestrian areas. Sometimes they can be minor, for instance the road going north from Covent Garden.
- thrill 7y agoA threat doesn't have to be an intentional act.
- slovenlyrobot 7y agoA long history of terrorist attacks, e.g. bombing the hotel the prime minister was sleeping in at the time (1984). More recently there have been many van attacks mostly by Muslim extremists, and that's what the barriers are about
- freeflight 7y ago> mostly by Muslim extremists Could you try to quantify that claim instead of just throwing it out there? Particularly in the context that ramming attacks have become rather common across the world in these past years [0], with plenty of them having a "non-terrorist" background [1]. [0] https://www.kent.ac.uk/news/society/18798/rise-in-vehicle-attacks-a-social-virus-spread-by-media-networks https://www.kent.ac.uk/news/society/18798/rise-in-vehicle-at... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-ramming_attack#List_of_non-terrorist_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-ramming_attack#List_of...
- avar 7y agoHow are you tallying up your [1] source? 4/4 by my count meet the criteria GP pointed out, 3/4 if you insist on splitting out "revenge for military action in the middle-East" as having nothing to do with it, which is a stretch.
- the-dude 7y agoFrom [0] : "For example, they depict how the 2017 Finsbury Park Mosque ramming attack was conducted by a man who had been motivated to act by the ISIS-inspired London Bridge ramming attack 16 days earlier. Subsequently, within six days of the Finsbury Park attack, two other similar ramming attacks against Muslims had occurred: one in North London and another in front of a Mosque in France." You see, nothing to do with Muslims! It must be social contagion instead.
- vonmoltke 7y ago> There is an air of paranoia unique to the UK with these things. You obviously haven't been to Manhattan lately.
- moftz 7y agoI see them out front of big box stores but I have a feeling it's more for pedestrian safety from inattentive drivers accidentally hitting the gas instead of the brake than preventing people from doing a robbery.
- jccooper 7y agoVehicular smash and grabs certainly happen, and I suspect that's the reason for most store bollards. Going through my local shopping center, the grocery store has a couple that are clearly for pedestrian protection, the pet store don't have them, and the electronics, clothing, and toy stores have bollards only useful for security. (Far from the curb and in front of windows.) That seems to be pretty consistent on the value/density spectrum to me. Here's an Apple store without bollards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od5YG6kBrJs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od5YG6kBrJs
- ChrisSD 7y agoFor London I started seeing more barriers in the wake of two similar vehicle attacks in 2017: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Westminster_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Westminster_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_London_Bridge_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_London_Bridge_attack
- the-dude 7y agoEurope is full of 'Merkel Lego' these days : https://duckduckgo.com/?q=merkel+lego&t=ffab&ia=images&iax=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=merkel+lego&t=ffab&ia=images&iax=i... Or is it 'Legos' ?
- bonestamp2 7y ago> Or is it 'Legos' ? 'Never, ever "Legos."' - LEGO https://twitter.com/lego_group/status/842115345280294912?lang=en https://twitter.com/lego_group/status/842115345280294912?lan...
- egdod 7y agoYou can already get arrested there for carrying a pocket knife or a screwdriver. Paranoia is the order of the day. At least these do some actual good.
- M2Ys4U 7y agoThere's an epidemic of knife crime in the UK at the moment. I'd say prohibiting carrying a knife without a good reason is a good thing.
- tristor 7y agoPoe’s Law is in effect. I can’t tell if you’re actually serious. A pocket knife carried by the average Joe harms nobody, so prohibiting carrying it is absolutely beyond reason.
- loriverkutya 7y agoThe 67 victim stabbed and dead only this year would have different opinion.
- tristor 7y agoWhat does that have to do with an average Joe and his pocket knife? Please walk me through your logic to believe that restrictions on knife carry are reasonable. I cannot see it, no matter how much I try.
- jdietrich 7y agoExcept that the law can't usefully distinguish between the "average Joe" and a teenager on their way to a gang fight. The law allows anyone to carry a non-locking folding knife with a blade of up to 76mm in length, unless there is evidence that they intend to use it as a weapon. The law also allows anyone to carry any bladed article if they have a lawful reason to do so - a chef can carry their knife bag to work, a carpenter can carry a utility knife to a job site, but you can't just drive around with a knife in your car for no good reason.
- Spooky23 7y agoVehicles the most accessible tool for lunatics to cause or deliver something to cause mass casualties in Europe.
- Quarrelsome 7y agothere's been a few incidents with vehicles mowing down pedestrians. I wouldn't label it paranoia. I'm personally impressed they've managed it without having to make the place _look_ threatening.
- jcrawfordor 7y agoThere are two major classes of applications for vehicle ram barriers. Both are common in the United States where I live, although the latter has become significantly more common over the past two decades as vehicle attacks have gained a higher profile: First, retailers, particularly larger ones, have occasionally suffered a form of burglary in which the thief drives a vehicle through the glass facade (and perhaps metal security barrier) in order to gain access, loads up valuable goods quickly, and flees before the police or guards arrive (since this method is not exactly subtle and invariably results in a response). As a result, large retailers almost invariably have bollards or columns to prevent vehicles reaching the glass entrance. Target very visibly uses 'big red balls' while Wal-Mart is fond of a simple concrete bollard with a blue plastic cover. This form of theft was never extremely common, but the bollards are cheap to install and require virtually no maintenance, so it makes perfect sense. Because this is mostly a low-risk anti-theft situation, the barriers used are usually of simple designs (concrete-filled pipe) and would not withstand a large vehicle. Second are counter-terrorist precautions. While effective against ramming attacks (e.g. driving into a crowd at speed as has happened several times recently in Europe and Great Britain), counter-terrorist ram barriers are usually intended primarily to prevent a car-bomb reaching an occupied area. They are not actually so much a post-9/11 precaution in the US but have actually been commonly installed since the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995, after which the federal government took significant measures to restrict vehicle access near facilities and private industry promptly followed. These are intended against a higher-cost event and more motivated actors and so they are usually much more heavily engineered, and may use rather interesting designs since they are often retrofit. However, in new construction it is preferred to integrate the vehicle (and potentially blast) barrier into the larger landscape design so that it is more aesthetically pleasing. This is often done by designing a system of landscape boulders, street furniture, retaining walls, and steep berms into the landscape around a building which (possibly non-obviously) form a continuous wall to vehicles. Nearly any federal office building or courthouse designed since 1995 demonstrates this technique. Counter-terrorist vehicle protections are becoming a standard part of the design of facilities that will attract crowds, especially when they are perceived as "public places." Such protections may be a requirement for government funding and incentives and liability insurance. And, ultimately, they are not very expensive in the scope of a large project, and may be funded by grants in the case of retrofit.
- lmm 7y agoMuch like generals prepare to fight the last war, security forces prepare to prevent the last terror attack. The most high-profile recent attack in the UK was someone driving a van into a few people near London Bridge. The UK used to be calmer about terrorist attacks - they're not worth putting down your pint over, really - but lately the US panic culture seems to have spread here.
- wongarsu 7y agoThe entrances to most pedestrian zones in Germany used to be guarded by thin metal poles if at all, now nearly all of them have solid concrete blocks, clearly intended as anti-ramming devices. The term "merkel lego" is politically charged but a decent way to find pictures of the stackable variety.
- reaperducer 7y agoThere is an air of paranoia unique to the UK with these things Las Vegas is in the process of installing 5,000 bollards after some stoned lady drove onto a sidewalk and over a bunch of people. They're designed to stop a full sized pickup truck going 55mph (90kph). https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/politics-and-government/clark-county/3000-more-steel-bollards-to-be-installed-along-las-vegas-strip-1671600/ https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/politics-and-government/c...
- mturmon 7y agoRelated: the Santa Monica farmer's market crash that killed 10 and injured 63, probably due to a confused driver. Bollards have since been installed there. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Monica_Farmers_Market_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Monica_Farmers_Market_cr...)
- sigmaprimus 7y agoThese are a great idea, I not sure how the plastic will look after a few years of service. Maybe they are designed to have the plastic replaced after they get scuffed, burned and cracked by people walking by them? Just a thought but I wonder if liquid filled , haywire wrapped bollards might be a better idea, the liquid can be drained to allow easy relocation and the haywire would tangle the wheels similar to how chainsaw saftey chaps work.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y agoEmergency vehicles need to get through. The flimsy plastic covers can just be rammed once the barriers are down.
- jccooper 7y agoThey are meant to be temporary, and are not even fixed to the ground.
- ken 7y agoProbably the same as any other hard plastic device that sees frequent public deployment. No cable ramp looks half as nice as it does in the manufacturer photos, either. Adding large quantities of liquid to a safety device comes with its own set of challenges.
- doorhurdle 7y agoIt's staggering the sheer amount of time, money and effort we are investing in security to accommodate a multi-cultural society nobody asked for.
- freeflight 7y agoThe system recently passed impact tests, where it prevented a 7,200kg lorry travelling at 32kph from penetrating less than five metres. https://vimeo.com/230126272 https://vimeo.com/230126272 As a German, I'm kinda confused how that "truck" is called a "lorry". I think in Germany it would be classified as a PKW (Personal vehicle) [0], as opposed to an LKW (Cargo vehicle) [1]. I wonder how such a barrier would fare against an LKW with heavy cargo? [0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personenkraftwagen https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personenkraftwagen [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lastkraftwagen https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lastkraftwagen
- mfontani 7y ago> where it prevented a 7,200kg lorry travelling at 32kph from penetrating less than five metres. Doesn't "preventing from penetrating less" mean it allowed it to penetrate more?
- NullPrefix 7y agoJury of English Majors http://themetapicture.com/media/funny-court-confession-jury.jpg http://themetapicture.com/media/funny-court-confession-jury....
- wongarsu 7y agoI would read it as equivalent to "forced it to penetrate at least five meters, if it penetrates at all". If I prevent you from entering a password shorter than 8 characters that means you can either not enter a password or one with at least 8 characters. This is exactly analogous.
- klyrs 7y agoNew rule in 2020: any news article that doesn't have a glaring typo, a sentence missing its subject or object, or mistaken double negative was written by AI
- meheleventyone 7y agoThat video says the truck weighs 2500kg so I presume the 7200kg lorry is a different thing.
- NullPrefix 7y agoWhat happens to a passenger car if it drives straight to it? My guess would be that the metal shaft would impale the car and the occupants.
- tobylane 7y agoAt the sort of speeds that can be achieved in that area (Victoria) the engine might get dented. At motorway speeds it could do what you describe.
- LeonM 7y agoIt might impale the engine, which is designed to slide underneath the cabin in case of a frontal collision. I'd say the risk for the occupants should be similar to hitting a boulder or a tree. It all depends on the speed at impact, but given that these barriers are mainly used in urban areas I don't think they would form much of a risk.
- smacktoward 7y agoThey aired some scientific tests of this question on Squidbillies a few years back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92wPOsuHZ9Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92wPOsuHZ9Y
- collegespam 7y agoThey have to place such things in public now? How terribly saddening. I doubt many people will enjoy taking a stroll through what feels like a high-security area. I'm wondering how much longer until we get what part of China have, where you must go through a metal detector or other security to enter, say, a grocery store. But it's all for our security, so I'm sure it's okay.
- wackro 7y agoYour post reads like the lowest kind of tabloid sensationalism. Plenty of things are out there protecting the public's safety already, some of which are far more notable than crumpled alumiunium plant pots.
- pjc50 7y agoWe had most of the bins taken away in the 80s due to the IRA. Didn't stop a truck bomb from breaking every window in the City of London. Still lower risk than mass shootings.
- notelonmusk 7y agoIn my days they called these Cheval de frise [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheval_de_frise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheval_de_frise
- dwoozle 7y agoUnintended, but not unforeseeable, consequences of the Schengen Zone.
- loriverkutya 7y agoThe UK is not in the Schengen Zone.
- securitas 7y agoThey are also called Allahu Ak-barriers.
- mywittyname 7y ago> The system recently passed impact tests, where it prevented a 7,200kg lorry travelling at 32kph from penetrating less than five metres. How about a 4,500lb (2,000kg) SUV traveling at 65mph (105kph)? 20mph (32kph) is a crawl. Even a slow passenger vehicle can hit that speed within 60ft (18m) or so. I think tests should involve vehicles going at least 40mph (65kph) if they are attempting to present realistic results.
- Someone1234 7y agoThere's different "levels" of vehicle security barriers (see ISO standard IWA14). This one is only rated to 2,500 kg @ 48 kph (90 degree impact) or 7,200 kg @ 32 kph (90 degree impact). Making it a lightweight/temporary. That's exactly how the manufacturer sells it too, listing it under "Temporary Security." Boasting that it is lightweight, small to store, quick to deploy, with only four men and no machines required. Great for events or as a short term solution. If you look at how it is deployed in London, they have it in locations where you'd never be able to get up to high speed due to the layout of the streets/congestion. With hopefully(?) more long term barriers being in the works. So I don't think it is a significant criticism to say it is a weak VSB. That's exactly the niche it is trying to fulfil, and exactly how it is advertised.
- tenebrisalietum 7y agoFor some reason this reminded me of Czech hedgehogs.
- brenden2 7y agoI would love to see more bollards deployed in Manhattan to protect pedestrians. Every day I see drivers making dangerous moves, running red lights, and intimidating people in crosswalks etc. There's one particular spot right in front of my apartment where I see people run the red light constantly, but the NYPD does nothing. Across the US, pedestrian and cyclist deaths are on the rise[1][2]. I've always thought it might be worth using retractable bollards in busy intersections to protect people from dangerous drivers, or to stop those who simply do not respect pedestrians. Traffic enforcement in NYC seems weak at best, and the NYPD appears to favour drivers over pedestrians and cyclists. Their enforcement activities involve ticketing delivery drivers (who have literally killed nobody ever) instead of keeping dangerous drivers off the roads. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/07/traffic-deaths-new-york-city-surge-2019 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/07/traffic-deat... [2]: https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/pedestrian-deaths-at-highest-level-since-1990-nhtsa/565756/ https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/pedestrian-deaths-at-hi...
- downerending 7y agoSimilarly, I wish there was a bollard design that could keep bicyclists off of sidewalks and out of crosswalks without impeding the disabled.
- wffurr 7y agoGive them a safe place to ride and this solves itself.
- downerending 7y agoI used to imagine that might be so, but when walking I regularly face bicyclists riding at full speed down a narrow sidewalk even though there is a parallel bike lane on a safe and fairly deserted street not two meters away. In any case, the tribulations of bicyclists is not a sufficient reason for them to endanger pedestrians. When I ride, I keep it in the street. It's the right thing to do.
- brenden2 7y agoI've seen retractable bollards in European cities to keep cars out of pedestrian areas (but allow service vehicles, buses, police, etc), so it seems like something that can be solved with a technological solution. The problem in the US is the car culture of boomers, and they're the ones who run the government.
- fortran77 7y agoIs mocking and blaming senior citizens for everything OK on Hacker News? Given the age discrimination in Silicon Valley, it's sad that Y Combinator, which actively moderates these forums, seems OK with not removing inflammatory posts about those people born between 1948 and 1965.
- munmaek 7y agoUsing the word "boomer" isn't an inflammatory post. I am trying hard right now to not roll my eyes. Above poster is right: the baby boomer generation set up this car culture, and they're still the ones in power. The younger generation is increasingly using other modes of transportation. (To the best of our ability, I mean it's literally not possible to avoid cars in much of America due to how city planning worked out). I, like others, don't have a favorable view of the boomers in power doing everything they can to make things worse for my generation and future generations. It's actually hilarious to see how upset boomers are right now over a simple phrase "ok, boomer". Total schadenfreude. And millenials / gen z are supposedly the snowflake generation?
- dang 7y agoPlease don't take HN threads further into flamewar. If you'd please review the site guidelines and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd greatly appreciate it: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html In particular, please keep generational spats off HN. Those are inherently vapid and possibly the most tedious kind of flamewar we see here, though I think there might be a three-way tie with bicycle-vs.-car wars and diet wars.
- 7y ago
- JackFr 7y agoIn NYC for extra special occasions (a United Nations dinner at the Metropolitan Museum of Art for instance) the police will close the street around the venue. They prevent all motor vehicle traffic with an extremely practical, temporary and unglamorous security measure -- parking two garbage trucks across all the adjoining intersections.
- brontide 7y ago> Those crumpled weak looking plastic barriers are just a cladding, and what’s underneath is enough to give people second thoughts about ramming a vehicle at them — massive spikes. Its sad how much of an after-thought these covers are. Each cover is crumpled in from the inevitable teenager standing on top of one… besides looking bad, it seems like a huge liability for whomever implements these barriers.
- reaperducer 7y agoThe big plant pots outside offices aren’t filled with concrete, but a fine honeycomb of aluminum that’s designed to crumple and absorb the impact energy. In Chicago, more often than not, they're filled with bunnies. They're actually massive pots filled with dirt and rabbits from nearby parks build their warrens in them. Good for the building and good for the critters.
- NullPrefix 7y ago>and good for the critters Until they are actually used for their purpose - absorbing the impact energy ?
- reaperducer 7y agoDepends on when an impact happens. They only go in the planters at night, when an impact seems significantly less likely. Although they do stay in the bigger ones all winter.
- roddux 7y agoI miss the days I could walk through a crowded area without seeing these awful things. The problem is, as these barriers become more widespread, the... perpetrators... of such attacks will simply move to other means of violence. Today we have regulations for buying cleaning products, minimum age requirements for buying cutlery, huge concrete barriers protecting us from cars... Some clever bugger is going to realise that pointy sticks are dangerous, soon. What then?
- njharman 7y ago> The system recently passed impact tests, where it prevented a 7,200kg lorry travelling at 32kph from penetrating less than five metres. That does not sound great. 32kph is slow and 5 meters! easily crosses entire sidewalk/roadway/whatever who wanted to keep vehicle out of.
- nrki 7y agoDesigned for congested/small UK streets where a lorry can't get up to significant speed. Also they are primarily deployed at the entrances to long walkways/bridges, where a lorry at speed would do significant damage to pedestrians. As these prevent a lorry from entering a walkway, 5m of rapidly-slowing "penetration" is acceptable.
- nimbius 7y agoThe thing nobodies mentioned in the article is that these types of barriers are for ingress and egress, and aren't largely practical for pedestrian spaces like San Francisco's embarcadero or a large park. In my opinion bollards still largely win. Ease of construction, omnidirectional impact, and no compromise in devastating stopping power. They're also capable of being aesthetic.
- hiroshi3110 7y agoit reminds me Archer’s stakes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer%27s_stake https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer%27s_stake