5 ms·

We should leave the EU because it was voted for by the majority

devtul 7y ago
No, we should do a second vote, maybe even a third vote in case the second vote result is wrong again as the first one. Sometimes democracy doesn't work you know, so we have to try harder.
- skissane 7y ago
  A majority of people voted to leave the EU. They didn't (at the ballot box) express any opinion on how to leave the EU – deal or no-deal, hard Brexit or soft Brexit, etc. If having an initial referendum on whether to leave was the right thing to do, why would not a further referendum to decide how to leave be equally right? It could take the form of an up-down vote on Johnson's deal; or, it could take the form of preferential (1, 2, 3, etc – as in instant run-off) voting on options – e.g. leave with May's original deal, leave with Johnson's new deal, leave with no deal, withdraw article 50, ask for another extension to negotiate further. Some will argue that the coming general election is an up-down vote on Johnson's deal. However, it isn't in that it is a first-past-the-post contest between different parties in each constituency – a majority of the vote might be received by parties opposed to Johnson's deal, yet the Tory candidate might still be returned due to the majority against them being split. A referendum on the deal itself wouldn't be faced with that issue.
  - Zenst 7y ago
    Yes the whole aspect that a democratic result done upon proportional representation could be overturned by split votes and more so a voting system that is regional. Does make you wonder. Since the referendum we have had a GE a EuroMP election and now...another GE. With only the referendum and the EuroMP being done on the proportional representation system. Sad thing is, had David Cameron got the EU to agree to reform, things would of been much different. Which is ironic as Mr Macron is keen to see reform, with even Donald Tusk not long after the referendum saying that the EU needed reform. Ironic as that reform is on hold, until the UK leaves. That's sad as in all this time, the EU could of outlined some reforms and the whole reason to have a revote upon the leave/stay would of been more palatable as things had/was changing. Bit like saying your going to quit a game due to some imbalance that has gone on for ages that you don't like, and before you quit, they say they are going to address the issue. So you may well change your mind. However you look at it though - a lot of people got way more politically educated over the past two years. Be interesting how that pans out over time.
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    Even other countries had a lot of votes against further integrating the Union. Since the last 30 years of policy were in the exact opposite direction with limited success, I think it would indeed be time to at least explore other options.
- lanevorockz 7y ago
  And a third and a fourth because it’s only right when the rich people say so
willyt 7y ago
...consisting of ~1/4 of the population. Parliament represents the interests of all 65 million of us.
- Jamwinner 7y ago
  I understand its unpopular, but throwing out democracy because your side chose not to vote is asinine.
- Zenst 7y ago
  The UK does not have compulsory voting, maybe it should.
- OJFord 7y ago
  ..consisting of the majority (over 72%) of eligible voters. That's a high turnout. (FWIW I don't think a referendum should have been held in the first place, and an un-referended decision either way would have been better.)
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  A decade ago the EU promised more grassroots democracy. That was a time when people were convinced of it. Currently the EU is just a complete embarrasment. And that is also due positions like this. Not the Russian is the problem, you are with your position. Why would anybody want to form a union with you?
diffeomorphism 7y ago
And now for years the UK can't figure out how it wants to leave, which people had no vote on. - Do you want to have a border in Ireland? - Do you want a border between Ireland and the rest of the UK? - Do you want to lose money for the NHS even though we had a bus saying the opposite? - Are you just going to say "no" to everything, but not have an idea what to do instead? Then maybe, just maybe it would a good idea to ask voters to choose again between leave this way, that way, another way or "who knew this could be so complicated, let's not do that".
- jamiegreen 7y ago
  Well given we have a deal with the EU that has addressed the first two points, I think we do know how we want to leave. Having another vote just because politicians didn't like the way the first one went is not democratic. We can have another vote, but lets leave first.
  - diffeomorphism 7y ago
    For some definition of "have". > Having another vote just because politicians didn't like the way the first one went is not democratic. Sure, which is why nobody is proposing that.
    - jamiegreen 7y ago
      > For some definition of "have The regular definition of two parties that have agreed something > Sure, which is why nobody is proposing that. Apart from the Labour party and the so called Peoples Vote campaign. But apart from them nobody is I suppose
      - diffeomorphism 7y ago
        > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit Parliament passed the second reading of the new agreement allowing it to move to the committee stage for further scrutiny, but they rejected plans to pass it into law before the 31 October deadline, and forced the government (through the 'Benn Act') to ask for a third Brexit delay. This was followed, on the last day of October, by an act providing for an early general election on 12 December. "Have", kinda but not quite. They are also not proposing that. If you have to misrepresent other groups instead of arguing against what they are actually saying then you are not discussing but just talking to yourself.

No, we should do a second vote, maybe even a third vote in case the second vote result is wrong again as the first one. Sometimes democracy doesn't work you know, so we have to try harder.

skissane 7y ago
A majority of people voted to leave the EU. They didn't (at the ballot box) express any opinion on how to leave the EU – deal or no-deal, hard Brexit or soft Brexit, etc. If having an initial referendum on whether to leave was the right thing to do, why would not a further referendum to decide how to leave be equally right? It could take the form of an up-down vote on Johnson's deal; or, it could take the form of preferential (1, 2, 3, etc – as in instant run-off) voting on options – e.g. leave with May's original deal, leave with Johnson's new deal, leave with no deal, withdraw article 50, ask for another extension to negotiate further. Some will argue that the coming general election is an up-down vote on Johnson's deal. However, it isn't in that it is a first-past-the-post contest between different parties in each constituency – a majority of the vote might be received by parties opposed to Johnson's deal, yet the Tory candidate might still be returned due to the majority against them being split. A referendum on the deal itself wouldn't be faced with that issue.
- Zenst 7y ago
  Yes the whole aspect that a democratic result done upon proportional representation could be overturned by split votes and more so a voting system that is regional. Does make you wonder. Since the referendum we have had a GE a EuroMP election and now...another GE. With only the referendum and the EuroMP being done on the proportional representation system. Sad thing is, had David Cameron got the EU to agree to reform, things would of been much different. Which is ironic as Mr Macron is keen to see reform, with even Donald Tusk not long after the referendum saying that the EU needed reform. Ironic as that reform is on hold, until the UK leaves. That's sad as in all this time, the EU could of outlined some reforms and the whole reason to have a revote upon the leave/stay would of been more palatable as things had/was changing. Bit like saying your going to quit a game due to some imbalance that has gone on for ages that you don't like, and before you quit, they say they are going to address the issue. So you may well change your mind. However you look at it though - a lot of people got way more politically educated over the past two years. Be interesting how that pans out over time.
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  Even other countries had a lot of votes against further integrating the Union. Since the last 30 years of policy were in the exact opposite direction with limited success, I think it would indeed be time to at least explore other options.
lanevorockz 7y ago
And a third and a fourth because it’s only right when the rich people say so

willyt 7y ago

...consisting of ~1/4 of the population. Parliament represents the interests of all 65 million of us.

Jamwinner 7y ago
I understand its unpopular, but throwing out democracy because your side chose not to vote is asinine.
Zenst 7y ago
The UK does not have compulsory voting, maybe it should.
OJFord 7y ago
..consisting of the majority (over 72%) of eligible voters. That's a high turnout. (FWIW I don't think a referendum should have been held in the first place, and an un-referended decision either way would have been better.)
raxxorrax 7y ago
A decade ago the EU promised more grassroots democracy. That was a time when people were convinced of it. Currently the EU is just a complete embarrasment. And that is also due positions like this. Not the Russian is the problem, you are with your position. Why would anybody want to form a union with you?

diffeomorphism 7y ago

And now for years the UK can't figure out how it wants to leave, which people had no vote on. - Do you want to have a border in Ireland? - Do you want a border between Ireland and the rest of the UK? - Do you want to lose money for the NHS even though we had a bus saying the opposite? - Are you just going to say "no" to everything, but not have an idea what to do instead? Then maybe, just maybe it would a good idea to ask voters to choose again between leave this way, that way, another way or "who knew this could be so complicated, let's not do that".

jamiegreen 7y ago
Well given we have a deal with the EU that has addressed the first two points, I think we do know how we want to leave. Having another vote just because politicians didn't like the way the first one went is not democratic. We can have another vote, but lets leave first.
- diffeomorphism 7y ago
  For some definition of "have". > Having another vote just because politicians didn't like the way the first one went is not democratic. Sure, which is why nobody is proposing that.
  - jamiegreen 7y ago
    > For some definition of "have The regular definition of two parties that have agreed something > Sure, which is why nobody is proposing that. Apart from the Labour party and the so called Peoples Vote campaign. But apart from them nobody is I suppose
    - diffeomorphism 7y ago
      > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit Parliament passed the second reading of the new agreement allowing it to move to the committee stage for further scrutiny, but they rejected plans to pass it into law before the 31 October deadline, and forced the government (through the 'Benn Act') to ask for a third Brexit delay. This was followed, on the last day of October, by an act providing for an early general election on 12 December. "Have", kinda but not quite. They are also not proposing that. If you have to misrepresent other groups instead of arguing against what they are actually saying then you are not discussing but just talking to yourself.