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Self Sabotage: The Swiss History of Rigging Vital Infrastructure to Explode

209 points by ubac 7y ago

hirundo 7y ago
> vernacular architecture has also played a prominent role in Swiss defense. Across the countryside, many structures that look like quaint barns or traditional homes were designed to house everything from bunkers to anti-aircraft guns I'll now have to look suspiciously at every Swiss building I come across.
- analog31 7y ago
  Hint: The cows that can't be tipped over, might be harboring weapons. Just give them a good push.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Does that fall under destructive testing?
  - JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
    I mean, that's all cows. Cow tipping is a myth. ... Oh god, you mean, the entire swiss dairy industry is a front?
    - masonic 7y ago
      If cows were given fair wages, tipping wouldn't be necessary in the first place.
  - analog31 7y ago
    Well, I can't edit my post any more, so I'll fill in with a bit more detail for our international HN'ers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_tipping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_tipping I grew up in the Midwest. The version of cow tipping that I heard about was to get some naieve urbanites, typically college students, all geared up about cow tipping and the theory behind it. Then take them to a pasture in the middle of the night, typically with alcohol involved. The idea is that they will return to the dorm rather covered in mud or "mud," as it were, never quite sure if they were pranked or not. Of course I have no idea if anything like this has ever actually happened.
  - bayesian_horse 7y ago
    You can only tip it over if it has a perfectly spherical shape.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      Perfectly spherical cows will seek their own level in Switzerland.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Beware of the booby-trap Cuckoo Clock. https://books.google.nl/books?id=Fcm4JrX-F54C&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=booby+trapped+cuckoo+clock&source=bl&ots=s8pFmcx94E&sig=ACfU3U22mYlwILDgKu-vAKZ3oLwcTUs_8g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2wr32t9TlAhVSC-wKHcIZBg4Q6AEwAnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=booby%20trapped%20cuckoo%20clock&f=false https://books.google.nl/books?id=Fcm4JrX-F54C&pg=PA157&lpg=P...
  - exoque 7y ago
    Can't blame the swiss on those though.
- Rebelgecko 7y ago
  When I was in Switzerland a month or so ago, I played "spot the bunker/fallout shelter" with my friends. There's a lot, especially in the more mountainous areas.
  - schappim 7y ago
    >> "spot the bunker/fallout shelter" with my friends Shouldn't be too hard! When I was young they had a law that every apartment building had to have a bunker / cellar stocked with provisions.
- andai 7y ago
  Here’s a nice gallery of “houses” :) https://www.messynessychic.com/2015/06/26/fake-chalets-unmasking-the-bunkers-disguised-as-quaint-swiss-villas/ https://www.messynessychic.com/2015/06/26/fake-chalets-unmas...
  - lifeisstillgood 7y ago
    Wow. And it's not just the fake houses - the fake rocky outcropping are amazing - what a great way not to ruin the countryside.
    - hosteur 7y ago
      And hide from planes
nyolfen 7y ago
the author mentioned, john mcphee, is my favorite nonfiction author, and i couldn't recommend him more highly. i was disappointed to see that the now surely out of print place de la concorde suisse was not easily available on the usual ebook resources, but he's an author worth paying for. another excellent book of his that would likely line up well with hn-adjacent interests is the curve of binding energy, written in the early 90s about a physicist's concern with the risk of nuclear proliferation among nonstate actors: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/54968.The_Curve_of_Binding_Energy https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/54968.The_Curve_of_Bindi...
- microtherion 7y ago
  I enjoy McPhee's writing, but I couldn't help thinking that in Place de la Concorde Suisse, he was regurgitating the propaganda his sources fed him, rather than getting an accurate picture. While there are some people in Swiss society who enjoy military service, the majority of military age men dislike the army (and voted to abolish the army outright in 1989; it was the votes of the past-military age generation which preserved the army). As for fighting effectiveness, luckily it has never been tested. But having seen the workings of the army firsthand, from the me-too way in which weapons systems are purchased, to the hidebound mediocrities who permeate the officer corps and army leadership, to the sheer implausibility of an army that has not fought a war in 200+ years being any good at it, I have zero expectation that the army would be anything but an expensive joke in an actual war.
- stateofnounion 7y ago
  agreed, mcphee is excellent. encounters with the archdruid left an indelible impression on me.
  - greesil 7y ago
    I enjoyed The Curve of Binding Energy
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  He’s the one who wrote about the Atchafalaya too?
DoctorOetker 7y ago
I believe rigging bridges was widespread throughout europe
- kjetijor 7y ago
  Norway used to at least have bridges built to be easily rigged (they may have been rigged for all I know at some point as well). That fell out of favor "some time ago", and apparently there was recently(-ish) questions about resuming the practice again.
  - jacobush 7y ago
    Same in Sweden. Sweden basically was like how Switzerland is described here. But that ended when the end of History occurred. (1990-ish, and there would be peace forever.)
- jeanpierre2 7y ago
  The plan for West Germany in case of a sudden Soviet invasion was to destroy bridges and railways, render tunnels unusable by dropping huge concrete blocks on the entrances or – my favourite – filling them with foam so Diesel motors would suffocate while driving through; and destroying many roads. All just to buy a little time to be able to mount an actual defence against the invasion in France.
  - fatbird 7y ago
    The plan for West Germany was to use nuclear land mines in the Fulda Gap to both destroy whole divisions en route and to create massive geological barriers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_demolition_munition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_demolition_munition
  - baud147258 7y ago
    I think in Korea (not sure if the pictures I saw were taken in the North or South) there are the same type of preparations, with obstacles ready to be deployed on N-S roads, like concrete block above the road ready to be dropped.
77pt77 7y ago
Where does this paranoia come from?
- hprotagonist 7y ago
  1648. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia
- mopsi 7y ago
  https://i.imgur.com/HFmJJov.jpg https://i.imgur.com/HFmJJov.jpg See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Redoubt_%28Switzerland%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Redoubt_%28Switzerlan...
  - ThePadawan 7y ago
    I always find it weird that Switzerland as a neutral, but financially involved country would be considered neither part of the Axis nor the Allies. They did supply weaponry to both sides.
- blotter_paper 7y ago
  Setting aside the highly relevant particulars of history mentioned in other replies, it's odd to me that every city isn't designed this way; we'd probably have less wars if they were. The main incentives for invading countries are 1) taking resources/land 2) travelling through to take other countries' resources/land and 3) self defense. If you aren't attacking anyone, and attacking you is more trouble than it's worth, you'll most likely be left alone.
  - jhoechtl 7y ago
    Following your principle you mean the system of checking forces by fear was good? Like in the cold war aera?
    - brigandish 7y ago
      That's why it remained the Cold War and not the hot kind. Thomas Schelling can take a lot of the credit for formalising this kind of thinking.
ohazi 7y ago
I've heard rumors that Taiwan does something similar in preparation for an invasion by mainland China. Specifically that sensitive areas within TSMC facilities are lined with explosives. It makes for a great story, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were true, but I've never been able to find a reliable source for this.
pnako 7y ago
A few years ago they did a military exercise where France, in a state of civil war/secession following a government bankruptcy, used its military to try and loot Swiss wealth. French authorities were not amused.
- ripsawridge 7y ago
  Ha!
- ur-whale 7y ago
  > France, in a state of civil war/secession following a government bankruptcy, used its military to try and loot Swiss wealth. Not a particularly far-fetched scenario, if you ask me. Except for the last part, coz there ain't enough money left to run a military organization.
  - Bayart 7y ago
    It's more or less what happened when we invaded Switzerland in 1798.
  - baud147258 7y ago
    If I remember right, the scenario was about a group of secessionist who had commandeered military assets
- bhaak 7y ago
  Military exercises which result in such amusing news happen quite often. Like the regular invasions of Liechtenstein by "accident". But usually, the invading forces are color coded and not named with real life names. I remember doing one where from the west blue forces, from the north brown forces and from the east red forces were the enemies. It's hard to come up with realistic military scenarios that involve invasions of foreign forces if you are a small landlocked country which is completely surrounded by friendly, democratic countries. :-)
duxup 7y ago
How do explosives and their associated equipment do as far as long term exposure to the elements?
- londons_explore 7y ago
  Some types of explosives are effectively waterproof and element-proof. The igniters and wiring are probably most vulnerable, but they can be constantly tested with minimum effort, and replaced as they fail.
m463 7y ago
Then there's the (deliberate?) railway incompatibility between germany and moscow.
Iv 7y ago
The Swiss system is soooo interesting in many respects. Most citizens are army reserve and regularly go for training. Many own a war weapon at home (that is strictly forbidden to take out without orders) They also have underground air bases that allow plane to take off from national roads and that are designed to resist nuclear bombings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=296&v=vEOLonBfaD8&t=5m https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=296&v=vEOLonBfaD... The main idea behind Switzerland's defense is that it is doable to conquer it, but it is very costly for very little gains. It is said that banks vaults of gold are mounted on trains that are designed, in case of alert, to run into underground tunnels that collapse behind them. Taking months to recover. This is really an interesting system probably tied tightly with their democratic system.
- throwawaywrench 7y ago
  >Many own a war weapon at home Although its worth noting that since 2007 the vast majority aren't allowed to keep ammunition for their weapons at home. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/soldiers-can-keep-guns-at-home-but-not-ammo/970614 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/soldiers-can-keep-guns-at-home-...
  - masonic 7y ago
    aren't allowed to keep ammunition for their weapons at home They aren't issued take-home ammunition by the army, but they can buy for their own use.
  - noxer 7y ago
    Not true. You are not allowed to take military (free) ammo home. You can however legally buy amo if you are 18 years old and legally own the compatible firearm to the ammo you buy.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- bhaak 7y ago
  > Many own a war weapon at home (that is strictly forbidden to take out without orders) That's not entirely true. You can take your own military weapon and use it in your free time on a shooting range or event. You don't even need a special permission to do so.
itronitron 7y ago
And now I expect that Swiss schools have students learn secret underground base design in Minecraft.
weinzierl 7y ago
Bridges along the eastern border of West Germany were at least be built to be rigged with explosives too. What looked like drain covers were actually the lids of the explosive chambers. For pictures see [1] (article is in German). [1] http://www.sperranlagen.de/bruecken.htm http://www.sperranlagen.de/bruecken.htm
- mxfh 7y ago
  This was a general countermobility NATO policy, the field manual goes into great detail about it: https://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us-archive/fm5-102%2885%29.pdf https://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us-archive/fm5-102%288... Regarding Switzerland, there is this absurdly high production value propaganda Triptych-Cinerama-short produced for the 64 swiss national expo. Fortress of Peace (Wehrhafte Schweiz / La Suisse vigilante / La Svizzera vigilante) with countermobility action all over the place and prominently in this section: https://youtu.be/mXWUCmeUF9o?t=1230 https://youtu.be/mXWUCmeUF9o?t=1230 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_of_Peace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_of_Peace
abc03 7y ago
I served 25 years ago in a unit with civil engineers (I’m not one). At this time, it was already a project in one of the yearly training courses, which infrastructure should be disarmed because a destruction would have impact on other infrastructure (e.g. tape water supply).
TheMagicHorsey 7y ago
The history of Switzerland the country is also very interesting. Basically a bunch of high-altitude towns that were rivals got together and decided to fend off their common enemy: low land despots. Initially, it was just a few hundred merchants and peasants banding together and using home-made poles with sickles on the ends to fend off armored knights. But by the end of the rebellion thousands of people from dozens of hilltop villages had joined together. That kernel formed an informal alliance that grew into Switzerland over time. Even today, the various Cantons see themselves as kind of independent of each other. They copied the US constitution, but while the US became a more centralized and despotic state ... the Swiss kept the original federalist design of the US constitution. Individual cantons have their own public or private health systems. They have their own education budgets. There is a huge amount of variation between the cantons. And basically Switzerland refuses to join most European efforts to disolve national boundaries.
- monort 7y ago
  Switzerland is more federalized, than US, but there is still a clear trend of centralization. https://academic.oup.com/publius/article/49/1/138/4259427 https://academic.oup.com/publius/article/49/1/138/4259427
- rspoerri 7y ago
  > They copied the US constitution, .. How would switzerland (1291) copy the US constitution (1789)? Do you have any references on this?
  - lawl 7y ago
    The swiss constitution has been revised a few times. The Switzerland from 1291 is different from the Switzerland now. > The creation of a bicameral assembly was consciously inspired by the United States Constitution, the National Council and Council of States corresponding to the House of Representatives and Senate, respectively https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Federal_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Federal_Constitution Also, copy is probably a bit too strong of a wording. It's definitely not a 1:1 copy, but yeah, inspiration.
marcyb5st 7y ago
The article doesn't mention it, but the bunkers here in Switzerland are serious structures. From the WSJ: "A Swiss shelter must withstand an impact of a 12-megaton explosion at a distance of 700 meters (765 yards). ..." [1]. Also, a lot of town/cities have a fully redundant water distribution system. In Zurich, for instance, the water coming out of the 100s of fountains you see around town comes from either of these and they are swapped regularly [2]. [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304231204576405700994655570 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304231204576405... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGyHJ-xmcuc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGyHJ-xmcuc
- arethuza 7y ago
  A quick check on Nukemap suggests that a 12MT explosion at ground level produces a crater 210m deep and with a radius of 0.88km at the outer edge so that requirement seems a bit optimistic.... https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/ https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
  - lostlogin 7y ago
    Presumably the surface type matters. Deep soil or clay versus rock must change things?
  - wcoenen 7y ago
    Nuclear warheads are not designed to be detonated at ground level. The optimum burst height for maximum damage (presumably not to bunkers, but to other structures) goes up with the bomb yield. For megaton yields that altitude will be several km.
    - arethuza 7y ago
      For soft targets (e.g. cities) an air burst would be used - but for hard targets a ground burst (or even penetration) would be used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_burst https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_burst Some weapons even allowed for "laydown delivery" where weapons would be on the ground for a bit before detonating: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laydown_delivery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laydown_delivery From what I recall, the really large weapons (10MT-25MT) were mainly intended, at least in the latter stages of the Cold War, to be used against hard targets.
sadness2 7y ago
> many military structures above ground and below have been declassified and sold off for reuse as homes, data centers, even cheese factories Or have they? 8-)
folli 7y ago
It's important to note that these are days gone by. The majority of these bunkers and forts are dismantled, the size of the army has gone down to 100,000 people (from 600,000 in the 50s, while the population has almost doubled), tanks and artillery are outdated (infantry is kept quite modern, to be fair), the support of the army in the voting population has also decreased. Is this good or bad? I don't know. Is the threat of a war in the middle of Europe really down to zero? I don't know.
secfirstmd 7y ago
This subject has fascinated me for a long time. One of the best books about it is called "La Place De LA Concorde Suisse" it's actually in English and well worth a read.
ericol 7y ago
As a side note, this site has _very_ interesting podcast episodes. Just yesterday I listened to the one from last week [1] about stamps from the GBLA [2]. [1] https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/great-bitter-lake-association/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/great-bitter-lake-ass... [2] http://www.shipsonstamps.org/Topics/html/gbla.htm http://www.shipsonstamps.org/Topics/html/gbla.htm
YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
I've often wondered if we should follow the Swiss' example on a planetary scale. It's not that an alien invasion is particularly likely, but, just in case, we might want to plant a few nukes here and there, in strategic locations. That is, locations selected to make it very clear to any potential invader from the stars that sending an interstellar invasion armada to Earth would be all cost and no benefit. I mean, we already have all those nukes lying around, ready to blow the planet to smithereens. We might as well put them into use as actual "deterrents".
_nalply 7y ago
This is an old strategy, nowadays the army works differently. But still, these are interesting tidbits of history. Many old bunkers have been decomissioned and taken over by associations preserving them as museums. Others are opened for the public like the Great War's bunker just below the top of the Sigriswiler Rothorn (Schafloch). Instead of hiking over the top I just went through it with my son. It was very dark, labyrinthine and scary. My son loved it.

209 points by ubac 7y ago

> vernacular architecture has also played a prominent role in Swiss defense. Across the countryside, many structures that look like quaint barns or traditional homes were designed to house everything from bunkers to anti-aircraft guns I'll now have to look suspiciously at every Swiss building I come across.

analog31 7y ago
Hint: The cows that can't be tipped over, might be harboring weapons. Just give them a good push.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Does that fall under destructive testing?
- JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
  I mean, that's all cows. Cow tipping is a myth. ... Oh god, you mean, the entire swiss dairy industry is a front?
  - masonic 7y ago
    If cows were given fair wages, tipping wouldn't be necessary in the first place.
- analog31 7y ago
  Well, I can't edit my post any more, so I'll fill in with a bit more detail for our international HN'ers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_tipping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_tipping I grew up in the Midwest. The version of cow tipping that I heard about was to get some naieve urbanites, typically college students, all geared up about cow tipping and the theory behind it. Then take them to a pasture in the middle of the night, typically with alcohol involved. The idea is that they will return to the dorm rather covered in mud or "mud," as it were, never quite sure if they were pranked or not. Of course I have no idea if anything like this has ever actually happened.
- bayesian_horse 7y ago
  You can only tip it over if it has a perfectly spherical shape.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Perfectly spherical cows will seek their own level in Switzerland.
jacquesm 7y ago
Beware of the booby-trap Cuckoo Clock. https://books.google.nl/books?id=Fcm4JrX-F54C&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=booby+trapped+cuckoo+clock&source=bl&ots=s8pFmcx94E&sig=ACfU3U22mYlwILDgKu-vAKZ3oLwcTUs_8g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2wr32t9TlAhVSC-wKHcIZBg4Q6AEwAnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=booby%20trapped%20cuckoo%20clock&f=false https://books.google.nl/books?id=Fcm4JrX-F54C&pg=PA157&lpg=P...
- exoque 7y ago
  Can't blame the swiss on those though.
Rebelgecko 7y ago
When I was in Switzerland a month or so ago, I played "spot the bunker/fallout shelter" with my friends. There's a lot, especially in the more mountainous areas.
- schappim 7y ago
  >> "spot the bunker/fallout shelter" with my friends Shouldn't be too hard! When I was young they had a law that every apartment building had to have a bunker / cellar stocked with provisions.
andai 7y ago
Here’s a nice gallery of “houses” :) https://www.messynessychic.com/2015/06/26/fake-chalets-unmasking-the-bunkers-disguised-as-quaint-swiss-villas/ https://www.messynessychic.com/2015/06/26/fake-chalets-unmas...
- lifeisstillgood 7y ago
  Wow. And it's not just the fake houses - the fake rocky outcropping are amazing - what a great way not to ruin the countryside.
  - hosteur 7y ago
    And hide from planes

nyolfen 7y ago

the author mentioned, john mcphee, is my favorite nonfiction author, and i couldn't recommend him more highly. i was disappointed to see that the now surely out of print place de la concorde suisse was not easily available on the usual ebook resources, but he's an author worth paying for. another excellent book of his that would likely line up well with hn-adjacent interests is the curve of binding energy, written in the early 90s about a physicist's concern with the risk of nuclear proliferation among nonstate actors: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/54968.The_Curve_of_Binding_Energy https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/54968.The_Curve_of_Bindi...

microtherion 7y ago
I enjoy McPhee's writing, but I couldn't help thinking that in Place de la Concorde Suisse, he was regurgitating the propaganda his sources fed him, rather than getting an accurate picture. While there are some people in Swiss society who enjoy military service, the majority of military age men dislike the army (and voted to abolish the army outright in 1989; it was the votes of the past-military age generation which preserved the army). As for fighting effectiveness, luckily it has never been tested. But having seen the workings of the army firsthand, from the me-too way in which weapons systems are purchased, to the hidebound mediocrities who permeate the officer corps and army leadership, to the sheer implausibility of an army that has not fought a war in 200+ years being any good at it, I have zero expectation that the army would be anything but an expensive joke in an actual war.
stateofnounion 7y ago
agreed, mcphee is excellent. encounters with the archdruid left an indelible impression on me.
- greesil 7y ago
  I enjoyed The Curve of Binding Energy
selimthegrim 7y ago
He’s the one who wrote about the Atchafalaya too?

DoctorOetker 7y ago

I believe rigging bridges was widespread throughout europe

kjetijor 7y ago
Norway used to at least have bridges built to be easily rigged (they may have been rigged for all I know at some point as well). That fell out of favor "some time ago", and apparently there was recently(-ish) questions about resuming the practice again.
- jacobush 7y ago
  Same in Sweden. Sweden basically was like how Switzerland is described here. But that ended when the end of History occurred. (1990-ish, and there would be peace forever.)
jeanpierre2 7y ago
The plan for West Germany in case of a sudden Soviet invasion was to destroy bridges and railways, render tunnels unusable by dropping huge concrete blocks on the entrances or – my favourite – filling them with foam so Diesel motors would suffocate while driving through; and destroying many roads. All just to buy a little time to be able to mount an actual defence against the invasion in France.
- fatbird 7y ago
  The plan for West Germany was to use nuclear land mines in the Fulda Gap to both destroy whole divisions en route and to create massive geological barriers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_demolition_munition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_demolition_munition
- baud147258 7y ago
  I think in Korea (not sure if the pictures I saw were taken in the North or South) there are the same type of preparations, with obstacles ready to be deployed on N-S roads, like concrete block above the road ready to be dropped.

77pt77 7y ago

Where does this paranoia come from?

hprotagonist 7y ago
1648. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia
mopsi 7y ago
https://i.imgur.com/HFmJJov.jpg https://i.imgur.com/HFmJJov.jpg See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Redoubt_%28Switzerland%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Redoubt_%28Switzerlan...
- ThePadawan 7y ago
  I always find it weird that Switzerland as a neutral, but financially involved country would be considered neither part of the Axis nor the Allies. They did supply weaponry to both sides.
blotter_paper 7y ago
Setting aside the highly relevant particulars of history mentioned in other replies, it's odd to me that every city isn't designed this way; we'd probably have less wars if they were. The main incentives for invading countries are 1) taking resources/land 2) travelling through to take other countries' resources/land and 3) self defense. If you aren't attacking anyone, and attacking you is more trouble than it's worth, you'll most likely be left alone.
- jhoechtl 7y ago
  Following your principle you mean the system of checking forces by fear was good? Like in the cold war aera?
  - brigandish 7y ago
    That's why it remained the Cold War and not the hot kind. Thomas Schelling can take a lot of the credit for formalising this kind of thinking.

ohazi 7y ago

I've heard rumors that Taiwan does something similar in preparation for an invasion by mainland China. Specifically that sensitive areas within TSMC facilities are lined with explosives. It makes for a great story, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were true, but I've never been able to find a reliable source for this.

pnako 7y ago

A few years ago they did a military exercise where France, in a state of civil war/secession following a government bankruptcy, used its military to try and loot Swiss wealth. French authorities were not amused.

ripsawridge 7y ago
Ha!
ur-whale 7y ago
> France, in a state of civil war/secession following a government bankruptcy, used its military to try and loot Swiss wealth. Not a particularly far-fetched scenario, if you ask me. Except for the last part, coz there ain't enough money left to run a military organization.
- Bayart 7y ago
  It's more or less what happened when we invaded Switzerland in 1798.
- baud147258 7y ago
  If I remember right, the scenario was about a group of secessionist who had commandeered military assets
bhaak 7y ago
Military exercises which result in such amusing news happen quite often. Like the regular invasions of Liechtenstein by "accident". But usually, the invading forces are color coded and not named with real life names. I remember doing one where from the west blue forces, from the north brown forces and from the east red forces were the enemies. It's hard to come up with realistic military scenarios that involve invasions of foreign forces if you are a small landlocked country which is completely surrounded by friendly, democratic countries. :-)

duxup 7y ago

How do explosives and their associated equipment do as far as long term exposure to the elements?

londons_explore 7y ago
Some types of explosives are effectively waterproof and element-proof. The igniters and wiring are probably most vulnerable, but they can be constantly tested with minimum effort, and replaced as they fail.

m463 7y ago

Then there's the (deliberate?) railway incompatibility between germany and moscow.

Iv 7y ago

The Swiss system is soooo interesting in many respects. Most citizens are army reserve and regularly go for training. Many own a war weapon at home (that is strictly forbidden to take out without orders) They also have underground air bases that allow plane to take off from national roads and that are designed to resist nuclear bombings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=296&v=vEOLonBfaD8&t=5m https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=296&v=vEOLonBfaD... The main idea behind Switzerland's defense is that it is doable to conquer it, but it is very costly for very little gains. It is said that banks vaults of gold are mounted on trains that are designed, in case of alert, to run into underground tunnels that collapse behind them. Taking months to recover. This is really an interesting system probably tied tightly with their democratic system.

throwawaywrench 7y ago
>Many own a war weapon at home Although its worth noting that since 2007 the vast majority aren't allowed to keep ammunition for their weapons at home. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/soldiers-can-keep-guns-at-home-but-not-ammo/970614 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/soldiers-can-keep-guns-at-home-...
- masonic 7y ago
  aren't allowed to keep ammunition for their weapons at home They aren't issued take-home ammunition by the army, but they can buy for their own use.
- noxer 7y ago
  Not true. You are not allowed to take military (free) ammo home. You can however legally buy amo if you are 18 years old and legally own the compatible firearm to the ammo you buy.
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bhaak 7y ago
> Many own a war weapon at home (that is strictly forbidden to take out without orders) That's not entirely true. You can take your own military weapon and use it in your free time on a shooting range or event. You don't even need a special permission to do so.

itronitron 7y ago

And now I expect that Swiss schools have students learn secret underground base design in Minecraft.

weinzierl 7y ago

Bridges along the eastern border of West Germany were at least be built to be rigged with explosives too. What looked like drain covers were actually the lids of the explosive chambers. For pictures see [1] (article is in German). [1] http://www.sperranlagen.de/bruecken.htm http://www.sperranlagen.de/bruecken.htm

mxfh 7y ago
This was a general countermobility NATO policy, the field manual goes into great detail about it: https://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us-archive/fm5-102%2885%29.pdf https://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us-archive/fm5-102%288... Regarding Switzerland, there is this absurdly high production value propaganda Triptych-Cinerama-short produced for the 64 swiss national expo. Fortress of Peace (Wehrhafte Schweiz / La Suisse vigilante / La Svizzera vigilante) with countermobility action all over the place and prominently in this section: https://youtu.be/mXWUCmeUF9o?t=1230 https://youtu.be/mXWUCmeUF9o?t=1230 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_of_Peace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_of_Peace

abc03 7y ago

I served 25 years ago in a unit with civil engineers (I’m not one). At this time, it was already a project in one of the yearly training courses, which infrastructure should be disarmed because a destruction would have impact on other infrastructure (e.g. tape water supply).

TheMagicHorsey 7y ago

The history of Switzerland the country is also very interesting. Basically a bunch of high-altitude towns that were rivals got together and decided to fend off their common enemy: low land despots. Initially, it was just a few hundred merchants and peasants banding together and using home-made poles with sickles on the ends to fend off armored knights. But by the end of the rebellion thousands of people from dozens of hilltop villages had joined together. That kernel formed an informal alliance that grew into Switzerland over time. Even today, the various Cantons see themselves as kind of independent of each other. They copied the US constitution, but while the US became a more centralized and despotic state ... the Swiss kept the original federalist design of the US constitution. Individual cantons have their own public or private health systems. They have their own education budgets. There is a huge amount of variation between the cantons. And basically Switzerland refuses to join most European efforts to disolve national boundaries.

monort 7y ago
Switzerland is more federalized, than US, but there is still a clear trend of centralization. https://academic.oup.com/publius/article/49/1/138/4259427 https://academic.oup.com/publius/article/49/1/138/4259427
rspoerri 7y ago
> They copied the US constitution, .. How would switzerland (1291) copy the US constitution (1789)? Do you have any references on this?
- lawl 7y ago
  The swiss constitution has been revised a few times. The Switzerland from 1291 is different from the Switzerland now. > The creation of a bicameral assembly was consciously inspired by the United States Constitution, the National Council and Council of States corresponding to the House of Representatives and Senate, respectively https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Federal_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Federal_Constitution Also, copy is probably a bit too strong of a wording. It's definitely not a 1:1 copy, but yeah, inspiration.

marcyb5st 7y ago

The article doesn't mention it, but the bunkers here in Switzerland are serious structures. From the WSJ: "A Swiss shelter must withstand an impact of a 12-megaton explosion at a distance of 700 meters (765 yards). ..." [1]. Also, a lot of town/cities have a fully redundant water distribution system. In Zurich, for instance, the water coming out of the 100s of fountains you see around town comes from either of these and they are swapped regularly [2]. [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304231204576405700994655570 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304231204576405... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGyHJ-xmcuc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGyHJ-xmcuc

arethuza 7y ago
A quick check on Nukemap suggests that a 12MT explosion at ground level produces a crater 210m deep and with a radius of 0.88km at the outer edge so that requirement seems a bit optimistic.... https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/ https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
- lostlogin 7y ago
  Presumably the surface type matters. Deep soil or clay versus rock must change things?
- wcoenen 7y ago
  Nuclear warheads are not designed to be detonated at ground level. The optimum burst height for maximum damage (presumably not to bunkers, but to other structures) goes up with the bomb yield. For megaton yields that altitude will be several km.
  - arethuza 7y ago
    For soft targets (e.g. cities) an air burst would be used - but for hard targets a ground burst (or even penetration) would be used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_burst https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_burst Some weapons even allowed for "laydown delivery" where weapons would be on the ground for a bit before detonating: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laydown_delivery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laydown_delivery From what I recall, the really large weapons (10MT-25MT) were mainly intended, at least in the latter stages of the Cold War, to be used against hard targets.

sadness2 7y ago

> many military structures above ground and below have been declassified and sold off for reuse as homes, data centers, even cheese factories Or have they? 8-)

folli 7y ago

It's important to note that these are days gone by. The majority of these bunkers and forts are dismantled, the size of the army has gone down to 100,000 people (from 600,000 in the 50s, while the population has almost doubled), tanks and artillery are outdated (infantry is kept quite modern, to be fair), the support of the army in the voting population has also decreased. Is this good or bad? I don't know. Is the threat of a war in the middle of Europe really down to zero? I don't know.

secfirstmd 7y ago

This subject has fascinated me for a long time. One of the best books about it is called "La Place De LA Concorde Suisse" it's actually in English and well worth a read.

ericol 7y ago

As a side note, this site has _very_ interesting podcast episodes. Just yesterday I listened to the one from last week [1] about stamps from the GBLA [2]. [1] https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/great-bitter-lake-association/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/great-bitter-lake-ass... [2] http://www.shipsonstamps.org/Topics/html/gbla.htm http://www.shipsonstamps.org/Topics/html/gbla.htm

YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago

I've often wondered if we should follow the Swiss' example on a planetary scale. It's not that an alien invasion is particularly likely, but, just in case, we might want to plant a few nukes here and there, in strategic locations. That is, locations selected to make it very clear to any potential invader from the stars that sending an interstellar invasion armada to Earth would be all cost and no benefit. I mean, we already have all those nukes lying around, ready to blow the planet to smithereens. We might as well put them into use as actual "deterrents".

_nalply 7y ago

This is an old strategy, nowadays the army works differently. But still, these are interesting tidbits of history. Many old bunkers have been decomissioned and taken over by associations preserving them as museums. Others are opened for the public like the Great War's bunker just below the top of the Sigriswiler Rothorn (Schafloch). Instead of hiking over the top I just went through it with my son. It was very dark, labyrinthine and scary. My son loved it.