12 ms·

German government expands subsidies for electric cars

115 points by reddotX 7y ago

dna_polymerase 7y ago
> The German government and car industry have agreed to increase joint subsidies for the purchase of electric cars on the same day automobile giant Volkswagen began production of a new all-electric vehicle. The way that company fucks Germany over and over is truly remarkable. Paid no penalties for the whole Dieselgate in Germany, now after all that they let the taxpayer fund their infrastructure. I bet their solution won't be compatible with Tesla. Edit: Okay, charging system seems to be compatible, I got angry over the first part.
- benjaminsuch 7y ago
  What do you mean by "fucks over"? People want to reduce CO2, they want a greener Germany, a greener world and more importantly reach the climate agreement. Subsidizing electric cars is one step towards it.
  - Tade0 7y ago
    Yes, but that could have been done in this form earlier, and not suspiciously close to VW's EVs' release date.
    - pgeorgi 7y ago
      Since half of the money come from automotive, they were involved in making that arrangement, too. It's quite possible that some VW managers delayed the process for a few weeks to get it all lined up.
  - dna_polymerase 7y ago
    > People want to reduce CO2, they want a greener Germany, a greener world and more importantly reach the climate agreement. Subsidizing electric cars is one step towards it. They could have done that for years, but it happens the day Volkswagen decides to finally build them.
  - freeflight 7y ago
    No disagreement there, but this should have happened over a decade ago. Instead, we got DieselGate, not just one, but at this point, several of them [0] and the responsible parties, even government agencies who knew but tried to hide it, just shrug their shoulders and nothing changes. Now they can celebrate themselves for putting EV on their agenda when everybody else is already miles ahead. Which is a common theme with German politics and any kind of tech innovation [1] [0] https://www.rbb24.de/politik/beitrag/2019/10/abgase-dieselskandal-nox-messung-kraftfahrtbundesamt-autos-schmutzig.html https://www.rbb24.de/politik/beitrag/2019/10/abgase-dieselsk... [1] https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/merkel-neuland-gaff-elicits-ridicule-and-goes-viral-on-twitter-a-906859.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/merkel-neuland-...
    - pgeorgi 7y ago
      > German politics and any kind of tech innovation I came to believe that German politics still associates "high tech" with the cog wheel: more cog wheels, more tech. Since that doesn't apply to IT, it completely falls by the wayside. And since EVs have less of them than an ICE car, they're also lower tech than regular cars. So far that's the only way I could make sense of it all.
      - freeflight 7y ago
        That would also explain the tendency to still bet on "rare metals" aka copper as a transmission medium for the Internet.
        pgeorgi 7y ago
        I think that has more to do with Projekt Opal by the Bundespost (see https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Die-Glasfaser-in-ihrem-Lauf-haelt-DSL-im-Osten-auf-3443663.html https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Die-Glasfaser-in-ihrem-Lauf... from 2001): An early fiber network project that tanked and cut off entire villages from any newer technology than 33.6kbps modems for a decade or so.
        paganel 7y ago
  - UserIsUnused 7y ago
    The money put in subsidizing electric vehicles is more well spend in public transportation. An 30 electric cars are not as green as a single bus.
    - dna_polymerase 7y ago
      Subsidizing public transportation will never happen at scale in Germany, this piece should be proof enough for that.
  - Tepix 7y ago
    A better way is to put a big tax on CO2 making driving ICE cars less attractive. They can then use the money from this tax to build bike paths and give tax breaks for electric vehicles. Preferably bicycles and light vehicles which use less resources to produce and operate.
- gsich 7y ago
  Why not? There are standardized ways to charge your car.
- splitbrain 7y ago
  Or as someone else put it: "If you want to understand German politics, you have to know that the German government is the political arm of the German car industry"
  - cf141q5325 7y ago
    And here a reminder to the "Abwrackprämine" the scrappage program from 2009 to help the automotive industry through the last financial crisis. Different to the programs in other countries, the German scrappage program coincidentally didnt require the new car to meet any modern emission standards.
- pgeorgi 7y ago
  > I bet their solution won't be compatible with Tesla. It's a standard charger system that I've seen all kinds of cars (incl. Teslas) connected to. Also: Renaults, VWs, BMWs, Mitsubishis.
- pgeorgi 7y ago
  >> on the same day automobile giant Volkswagen began production of a new all-electric vehicle. > The way that company fucks Germany over and over is truly remarkable. Their political reach certainly is remarkable. I quipped that there will be legal roadblocks for autonomous cars in Germany that "magically" disappear each time a German car maker solves the technical issues that prevents them from going to market with it now. > Paid no penalties for the whole Dieselgate in Germany Some of that is blatant protectionism (which applies even when banks defraud the federal government by scheming to recoup taxes they never paid: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/14/cum-ex-german-tax-case-could-ripple-through-the-finance-industry.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/14/cum-ex-german-tax-case-could...), but the other part of no-to-low penalties in Germany compared to certain other countries is due to differences in the legal systems. Germany first had to establish a process for something akin to class action lawsuits, because that didn't exist here. That was done in response to the Dieselgate thing. Even with that in place, you won't see the huge sums in Germany that you see in the US as punitive damages (doubling or tripling the value "because") don't exist, either (with no intent to change that): There's potentially a legal penalty and there's damages - for which actual damage needs to be proven.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  Short term, Tesla gets the largest benefit from this, as they are delivering the Model 3 in numbers already and the Model 3 would qualify (though not for the full amount, as this is only for cars less than 40000€). Behind that though, VW is to gain a lot from it too for certain.
- daddylonglegs 7y ago
  > Paid no penalties for the whole Dieselgate in Germany, German prosecutors have charged VW's former CEO and some other executives [1]. I think it's very rare for bigwigs to be held personally responsible for pollution anywhere in the world so I see this as a refreshing change. The company itself paid a fine in Germany (one billion, I think) and has paid fines in other countries, as well as recalling a lot of cars. As far as government support goes, well, Tesla made a ton of money from selling pollution permits and I think their car prices were also directly subsidised. I'm sure the big Chinese EV manufacturers were supported at crucial times as well. Industrial policy can be corrupt but it is a necessary part of a big, national or international level effort and I don't think there is any point in pretending otherwise. [1] https://apnews.com/faeff4b8855c4b0daf538599ae3f9db2 https://apnews.com/faeff4b8855c4b0daf538599ae3f9db2
  - dna_polymerase 7y ago
    VW penalties: - 5 million, the maximum for this misdemeanor "Ordnungswidrigkeit", - 995 million levy of infringer's profits. Given that they couldn't have sold their cars if the real emission values would have been known that number is ridiculously low (we are talking about 10 million cars sold between 2007 and 2015). Now the article mentions 3.5 billion will be invested in electric vehicle infrastructure subsidies.
aszantu 7y ago
:( They give u 4k on a 32k car, but they wont give it to a 4k car from china
- Jamwinner 7y ago
  That 4k chineese car is more of a burden than a gift. For once, I agree with the government subsidies.
  - mcny 7y ago
    I don't know anything about Germany but back in New York (the city), anything that has mass and occupies space is a burden. The rent is high and space is tight. I didn't even own a desktop computer because I couldn't justify the space a dedicated computer space takes. Thus, given the golf carts can't drive everywhere, you pretty much need a second car so I kind of agree with you. That being said, wasn't there some noise about free public transit? Maybe a small EV (not necessarily from China PR) is good enough in a pinch if the public transit is free of cost and reliable?
    - lm28469 7y ago
      You're assuming the majority of people are rational. Cars are basically a religion in germany (with beer and football). You can compare that to the 2nd amendment in the US.
- wil421 7y ago
  Are the Chinese EV golf carts I mean cars allowed in Germany? I thought their safety requirements were pretty tight. I can’t imagine some of them making it on the autobahn.
  - lumberjack 7y ago
    Cannot be more of a death trap than a Renault Twizzy which I see quite often around the city, or any motorcycle for that matter. As long as they don't market it as a normal car, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed.
sneak 7y ago
Reminder, for context: the German VAT (effectively, sales tax) rate is 19%.
gibolt 7y ago
It is pretty blatant that they are increasing it by 50% to support Volkswagen's conversion to electric. Most of the other comments seem quite negative. It is protectionism, but it applies to most electric cars and is a step in the right direction. It is late and selfish, but better than the alternative.
- cbmuser 7y ago
  Volkswagen isn't going to convert to electric anytime soon. Electric cars only make 1% of the annual car registrations in Germany and 0.18% of the total number of cars registered. In fact, Volkswagen is planning a new factory for cars with combustion engines in Turkey. It's just currently put on hold due to the conflict at the Syrian border.
  - wongarsu 7y ago
    Of course a giant company like Volkswagen won't turn around on a dime, it will be a slow transition; and probably never a complete one. But just from the fact that electric cars have a 5 times higher share of new registrations than of existing cars shows that it's a growing market, and adoption curves usually grow exponentially until you approach market saturation. Volkswagen is doing a lot to get a bigger piece of that pie.
    - blattimwind 7y ago
      > Of course a giant company like Volkswagen won't turn around on a dime, it will be a slow transition; and probably never a complete one. Yes, there is a long tail of applications where EVs are not a reasonable proposition. Emergency services (police, medical, fire fighting) come to mind immediately. There is pretty much no way you can built an all-electric fire truck with batteries that isn't much worse than ICE fire trucks today: Battery weight means you can carry less water, which directly reduces operational capability; limited battery charge means the truck's pumps don't last as long, and a battery is much harder to refuel in the field than a tank of diesel. Similar reasons apply to ambulances. Some L.E. vehicles can reasonably be made to work as EVs (patrol cars), others not so much. Whenever you need to maximize off-grid operational time or you continuously need a lot of power, EVs are just not a sane option. Additionally the small number of these vehicles make their emissions rather irrelevant.
sparkling 7y ago
I doubt this is going to do anything. About 50% of the population in Germany are renters, not owners. And for the other 50% owners, many just own a unit in a multi family building, not the whole property. For manyyyyy of these people there simply is no option to conveniently fast charge their electric vehicle at home. No renter will want to invest in a pricey wallbox at a property that they don't own - even if the landlord would allow such a wallbox to be installed (most don't want any modifications to their building). And for the apartment/unit owners, a German court has decided that all the other unit owners must agree to such a wallbox being installed, so that's another obstacle.
- mooktakim 7y ago
  Solution to these problems will come. Its a chicken & egg problem. I live in a flat in London and thinking of similar issues with electric cars. Maybe 20min supercharging every couple of weeks is enough for my weekend driving. I'm hoping soon every lamp post will have a charging plug.
  - lm28469 7y ago
    > I'm hoping soon every lamp post will have a charging plug. I don't see any major city doing that anytime soon. The grid is not ready, power plants are not ready, it would cost billions to rewire everything, especially in old European towns. And even more for germany since they're shutting down coal and nuclear right now. It's not a big issue though, we should focus on getting rid of personal cars and that's something Berlin is getting slightly better at by the day.
    - kwhitefoot 7y ago
      > grid is not ready, The UK National Grid says otherwise. See https://www.carbonbrief.org/rise-uk-electric-vehicles-national-grid-doubles-2040-forecast https://www.carbonbrief.org/rise-uk-electric-vehicles-nation... for instance.
    - mooktakim 7y ago
      Firstly, when they add these types of charging stations, they will make the grid ready. Secondly, grid has a lot of capacity. Its like motorways, most of the time its under utilised. Only during peak time that it is full capacity. Think of the grid in a similar way. Its mostly under utilised except for peak time. All we need to do is make use of it outside peak time (with batteries) and suddenly we have double or triple the capacity.
dillz 7y ago
Blatant and obvious lobbying by the extremely powerful German car industry. The subsidy includes premium brand plug-in hybrids such as BMW 330e and Mercedes C class - i.e. typical company cars that will very rarely use the electric engine. As gibolt mentioned, it also helps VW selling their new models. Why not subsidize public transport instead? Why has the German government been unable to make (useful) climate protection laws in the past years, but these odd subsidies are no problem?
- k__ 7y ago
  True. On the other hand, at least VW is partly owned by the state. Also, I think it's good to get into renewables for the climate and to cut the monarchs and autocrats off from their money in the long run.
  - arethuza 7y ago
    Looks like VW is actually more owned by Qatar than any part of the German state: https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/InvestorRelations/shares/shareholder-structure.html# https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/InvestorRelations/shares/sha... Edit: Saxony does get more voting rights than Qatar.
    - b3orn 7y ago
      You mean Lower Saxony. Saxony is a different state on the other side of Germany, that has no voting rights in VW.
    - germanier 7y ago
      It should be noted that all the profit from state owned shares ends up in the independent Volkswagen Foundation (promoting science), not the state budget.
- thinkcontext 7y ago
  > typical company cars that will very rarely use the electric engine This is backwards, plugin hybrids rarely use their gas engines. BMW 330e 2020 has a 20 mile electric only range (about the same as Prius Prime). Average German car trip distance is 11 miles [0] Even if the trip is longer than 20 miles, it will only use the gas after the electric runs out. [0] Large PDF, average car trip distance on page 50 https://setis.ec.europa.eu/system/files/Driving_and_parking_patterns_of_European_car_drivers-a_mobility_survey.pdf https://setis.ec.europa.eu/system/files/Driving_and_parking_...
Vysero 7y ago
I would love to be able to buy an electric car here in Montana (US) but how would I charge it? Either way I couldn't afford it. Even at a conservative estimate of 20k that's still too much considering I can go out and buy a used car that gets 20mpg for 5k and keep it for the next 100k miles. I realize this is a bit off topic but I get so bitter when I heard about other countries converting to electric. I just wish someone would make and sell a reliable electric car in the states for around 10-15k and provide me with enough utility stations to make it practical to use.
- windsurfer 7y ago
  May I ask why you wouldn't be able to charge it at home? It is my understanding that most people simply charge their electric cars overnight, much like their phones.
  - vkou 7y ago
    My apartment building does not have, and by my best guess, will never have car chargers in its parking garage. And I'm lucky enough to have a parking garage. At least ~70% of the people living in my area park on the street, where there are... Also no chargers.
    - hannasanarion 7y ago
      Have you considered asking them if they would install one? They aren't that expensive, only about $1000 bucks, and I think there are some federal subsidies. With a service like Chargepoint, there is no cost to the landlord at all. They have a brochure you can print out on their website. Failing that you can park near a regular 120v outlet and use level 1 charging, which fills up most cars in about 8 hours.
      - close04 7y ago
        > a regular 120v outlet and use level 1 charging, which fills up most cars in about 8 hours A regular 120V outlet is 15A at best (usually 12A). That's barely enough to charge a PHEV in 8h, let alone a BEV. Practical example [0]: > connected to a 240V outlet, the onboard 7.7kW charger should take the battery from 0-100% SoC in 2 hours 25 min. (A 120V charge will take a bit longer at just over 16.5 hours.) [0] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/10/on-the-road-with-audis-new-q5-and-a8-tfsi-e-plug-in-hybrids/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/10/on-the-road-with-audis-...
GrayTextIsTruth 7y ago
Not electric motorcycles? They are electric AND require less energy to move from point A to B.
- gpm 7y ago
  They probably require a lot more doctor time to move from point A to point B though.
  - llampx 7y ago
    Cars make everyone require a lot more doctor time in the form of treatments for asthma, bronchitis and obesity. Not to mention in the form of making driving so boring that drivers fill the time with texting and cause accidents, killing cyclists in the process.
  - devmunchies 7y ago
    And? its an environmental initiative. I'm fine with more human risk. Its the greener option. This is Germany too, so there's already a lot more riders than in the US so drivers are accustomed to see them.
    - gpm 7y ago
      And the subsidized medical system is already subsidizing your bike. Call it an environmental subsidy for your bike if you wish. (I don't actually know how healthcare works in Germany, not being German, but I assume it's like other first world countries in that it's subsidized by taxpayers).
      - devmunchies 7y ago
        motorcycle accidents are overwhelmingly caused by car drivers who weren't paying attention. So why would any medical cost be blamed on the motorcyclists?
- Tepix 7y ago
  I'd like to see them subsidize ebikes (pedelecs) more. Currently you can get a tax break but that's it.
BLanen 7y ago
Terrible. Horribly ineffective for co2 reduction, but politically palatable by the upper class because they'll be the ones most benefiting from it.

115 points by reddotX 7y ago

> The German government and car industry have agreed to increase joint subsidies for the purchase of electric cars on the same day automobile giant Volkswagen began production of a new all-electric vehicle. The way that company fucks Germany over and over is truly remarkable. Paid no penalties for the whole Dieselgate in Germany, now after all that they let the taxpayer fund their infrastructure. I bet their solution won't be compatible with Tesla. Edit: Okay, charging system seems to be compatible, I got angry over the first part.

benjaminsuch 7y ago
What do you mean by "fucks over"? People want to reduce CO2, they want a greener Germany, a greener world and more importantly reach the climate agreement. Subsidizing electric cars is one step towards it.
- Tade0 7y ago
  Yes, but that could have been done in this form earlier, and not suspiciously close to VW's EVs' release date.
  - pgeorgi 7y ago
    Since half of the money come from automotive, they were involved in making that arrangement, too. It's quite possible that some VW managers delayed the process for a few weeks to get it all lined up.
- dna_polymerase 7y ago
  > People want to reduce CO2, they want a greener Germany, a greener world and more importantly reach the climate agreement. Subsidizing electric cars is one step towards it. They could have done that for years, but it happens the day Volkswagen decides to finally build them.
- freeflight 7y ago
  No disagreement there, but this should have happened over a decade ago. Instead, we got DieselGate, not just one, but at this point, several of them [0] and the responsible parties, even government agencies who knew but tried to hide it, just shrug their shoulders and nothing changes. Now they can celebrate themselves for putting EV on their agenda when everybody else is already miles ahead. Which is a common theme with German politics and any kind of tech innovation [1] [0] https://www.rbb24.de/politik/beitrag/2019/10/abgase-dieselskandal-nox-messung-kraftfahrtbundesamt-autos-schmutzig.html https://www.rbb24.de/politik/beitrag/2019/10/abgase-dieselsk... [1] https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/merkel-neuland-gaff-elicits-ridicule-and-goes-viral-on-twitter-a-906859.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/merkel-neuland-...
  - pgeorgi 7y ago
    > German politics and any kind of tech innovation I came to believe that German politics still associates "high tech" with the cog wheel: more cog wheels, more tech. Since that doesn't apply to IT, it completely falls by the wayside. And since EVs have less of them than an ICE car, they're also lower tech than regular cars. So far that's the only way I could make sense of it all.
    - freeflight 7y ago
      That would also explain the tendency to still bet on "rare metals" aka copper as a transmission medium for the Internet.
      - pgeorgi 7y ago
        I think that has more to do with Projekt Opal by the Bundespost (see https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Die-Glasfaser-in-ihrem-Lauf-haelt-DSL-im-Osten-auf-3443663.html https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Die-Glasfaser-in-ihrem-Lauf... from 2001): An early fiber network project that tanked and cut off entire villages from any newer technology than 33.6kbps modems for a decade or so.
      - paganel 7y ago
- UserIsUnused 7y ago
  The money put in subsidizing electric vehicles is more well spend in public transportation. An 30 electric cars are not as green as a single bus.
  - dna_polymerase 7y ago
    Subsidizing public transportation will never happen at scale in Germany, this piece should be proof enough for that.
- Tepix 7y ago
  A better way is to put a big tax on CO2 making driving ICE cars less attractive. They can then use the money from this tax to build bike paths and give tax breaks for electric vehicles. Preferably bicycles and light vehicles which use less resources to produce and operate.
gsich 7y ago
Why not? There are standardized ways to charge your car.
splitbrain 7y ago
Or as someone else put it: "If you want to understand German politics, you have to know that the German government is the political arm of the German car industry"
- cf141q5325 7y ago
  And here a reminder to the "Abwrackprämine" the scrappage program from 2009 to help the automotive industry through the last financial crisis. Different to the programs in other countries, the German scrappage program coincidentally didnt require the new car to meet any modern emission standards.
pgeorgi 7y ago
> I bet their solution won't be compatible with Tesla. It's a standard charger system that I've seen all kinds of cars (incl. Teslas) connected to. Also: Renaults, VWs, BMWs, Mitsubishis.
pgeorgi 7y ago
>> on the same day automobile giant Volkswagen began production of a new all-electric vehicle. > The way that company fucks Germany over and over is truly remarkable. Their political reach certainly is remarkable. I quipped that there will be legal roadblocks for autonomous cars in Germany that "magically" disappear each time a German car maker solves the technical issues that prevents them from going to market with it now. > Paid no penalties for the whole Dieselgate in Germany Some of that is blatant protectionism (which applies even when banks defraud the federal government by scheming to recoup taxes they never paid: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/14/cum-ex-german-tax-case-could-ripple-through-the-finance-industry.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/14/cum-ex-german-tax-case-could...), but the other part of no-to-low penalties in Germany compared to certain other countries is due to differences in the legal systems. Germany first had to establish a process for something akin to class action lawsuits, because that didn't exist here. That was done in response to the Dieselgate thing. Even with that in place, you won't see the huge sums in Germany that you see in the US as punitive damages (doubling or tripling the value "because") don't exist, either (with no intent to change that): There's potentially a legal penalty and there's damages - for which actual damage needs to be proven.
_ph_ 7y ago
Short term, Tesla gets the largest benefit from this, as they are delivering the Model 3 in numbers already and the Model 3 would qualify (though not for the full amount, as this is only for cars less than 40000€). Behind that though, VW is to gain a lot from it too for certain.
daddylonglegs 7y ago
> Paid no penalties for the whole Dieselgate in Germany, German prosecutors have charged VW's former CEO and some other executives [1]. I think it's very rare for bigwigs to be held personally responsible for pollution anywhere in the world so I see this as a refreshing change. The company itself paid a fine in Germany (one billion, I think) and has paid fines in other countries, as well as recalling a lot of cars. As far as government support goes, well, Tesla made a ton of money from selling pollution permits and I think their car prices were also directly subsidised. I'm sure the big Chinese EV manufacturers were supported at crucial times as well. Industrial policy can be corrupt but it is a necessary part of a big, national or international level effort and I don't think there is any point in pretending otherwise. [1] https://apnews.com/faeff4b8855c4b0daf538599ae3f9db2 https://apnews.com/faeff4b8855c4b0daf538599ae3f9db2
- dna_polymerase 7y ago
  VW penalties: - 5 million, the maximum for this misdemeanor "Ordnungswidrigkeit", - 995 million levy of infringer's profits. Given that they couldn't have sold their cars if the real emission values would have been known that number is ridiculously low (we are talking about 10 million cars sold between 2007 and 2015). Now the article mentions 3.5 billion will be invested in electric vehicle infrastructure subsidies.

aszantu 7y ago

:( They give u 4k on a 32k car, but they wont give it to a 4k car from china

Jamwinner 7y ago
That 4k chineese car is more of a burden than a gift. For once, I agree with the government subsidies.
- mcny 7y ago
  I don't know anything about Germany but back in New York (the city), anything that has mass and occupies space is a burden. The rent is high and space is tight. I didn't even own a desktop computer because I couldn't justify the space a dedicated computer space takes. Thus, given the golf carts can't drive everywhere, you pretty much need a second car so I kind of agree with you. That being said, wasn't there some noise about free public transit? Maybe a small EV (not necessarily from China PR) is good enough in a pinch if the public transit is free of cost and reliable?
  - lm28469 7y ago
    You're assuming the majority of people are rational. Cars are basically a religion in germany (with beer and football). You can compare that to the 2nd amendment in the US.
wil421 7y ago
Are the Chinese EV golf carts I mean cars allowed in Germany? I thought their safety requirements were pretty tight. I can’t imagine some of them making it on the autobahn.
- lumberjack 7y ago
  Cannot be more of a death trap than a Renault Twizzy which I see quite often around the city, or any motorcycle for that matter. As long as they don't market it as a normal car, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed.

sneak 7y ago

Reminder, for context: the German VAT (effectively, sales tax) rate is 19%.

gibolt 7y ago

It is pretty blatant that they are increasing it by 50% to support Volkswagen's conversion to electric. Most of the other comments seem quite negative. It is protectionism, but it applies to most electric cars and is a step in the right direction. It is late and selfish, but better than the alternative.

cbmuser 7y ago
Volkswagen isn't going to convert to electric anytime soon. Electric cars only make 1% of the annual car registrations in Germany and 0.18% of the total number of cars registered. In fact, Volkswagen is planning a new factory for cars with combustion engines in Turkey. It's just currently put on hold due to the conflict at the Syrian border.
- wongarsu 7y ago
  Of course a giant company like Volkswagen won't turn around on a dime, it will be a slow transition; and probably never a complete one. But just from the fact that electric cars have a 5 times higher share of new registrations than of existing cars shows that it's a growing market, and adoption curves usually grow exponentially until you approach market saturation. Volkswagen is doing a lot to get a bigger piece of that pie.
  - blattimwind 7y ago
    > Of course a giant company like Volkswagen won't turn around on a dime, it will be a slow transition; and probably never a complete one. Yes, there is a long tail of applications where EVs are not a reasonable proposition. Emergency services (police, medical, fire fighting) come to mind immediately. There is pretty much no way you can built an all-electric fire truck with batteries that isn't much worse than ICE fire trucks today: Battery weight means you can carry less water, which directly reduces operational capability; limited battery charge means the truck's pumps don't last as long, and a battery is much harder to refuel in the field than a tank of diesel. Similar reasons apply to ambulances. Some L.E. vehicles can reasonably be made to work as EVs (patrol cars), others not so much. Whenever you need to maximize off-grid operational time or you continuously need a lot of power, EVs are just not a sane option. Additionally the small number of these vehicles make their emissions rather irrelevant.

sparkling 7y ago

I doubt this is going to do anything. About 50% of the population in Germany are renters, not owners. And for the other 50% owners, many just own a unit in a multi family building, not the whole property. For manyyyyy of these people there simply is no option to conveniently fast charge their electric vehicle at home. No renter will want to invest in a pricey wallbox at a property that they don't own - even if the landlord would allow such a wallbox to be installed (most don't want any modifications to their building). And for the apartment/unit owners, a German court has decided that all the other unit owners must agree to such a wallbox being installed, so that's another obstacle.

mooktakim 7y ago
Solution to these problems will come. Its a chicken & egg problem. I live in a flat in London and thinking of similar issues with electric cars. Maybe 20min supercharging every couple of weeks is enough for my weekend driving. I'm hoping soon every lamp post will have a charging plug.
- lm28469 7y ago
  > I'm hoping soon every lamp post will have a charging plug. I don't see any major city doing that anytime soon. The grid is not ready, power plants are not ready, it would cost billions to rewire everything, especially in old European towns. And even more for germany since they're shutting down coal and nuclear right now. It's not a big issue though, we should focus on getting rid of personal cars and that's something Berlin is getting slightly better at by the day.
  - kwhitefoot 7y ago
    > grid is not ready, The UK National Grid says otherwise. See https://www.carbonbrief.org/rise-uk-electric-vehicles-national-grid-doubles-2040-forecast https://www.carbonbrief.org/rise-uk-electric-vehicles-nation... for instance.
  - mooktakim 7y ago
    Firstly, when they add these types of charging stations, they will make the grid ready. Secondly, grid has a lot of capacity. Its like motorways, most of the time its under utilised. Only during peak time that it is full capacity. Think of the grid in a similar way. Its mostly under utilised except for peak time. All we need to do is make use of it outside peak time (with batteries) and suddenly we have double or triple the capacity.

dillz 7y ago

Blatant and obvious lobbying by the extremely powerful German car industry. The subsidy includes premium brand plug-in hybrids such as BMW 330e and Mercedes C class - i.e. typical company cars that will very rarely use the electric engine. As gibolt mentioned, it also helps VW selling their new models. Why not subsidize public transport instead? Why has the German government been unable to make (useful) climate protection laws in the past years, but these odd subsidies are no problem?

k__ 7y ago
True. On the other hand, at least VW is partly owned by the state. Also, I think it's good to get into renewables for the climate and to cut the monarchs and autocrats off from their money in the long run.
- arethuza 7y ago
  Looks like VW is actually more owned by Qatar than any part of the German state: https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/InvestorRelations/shares/shareholder-structure.html# https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/InvestorRelations/shares/sha... Edit: Saxony does get more voting rights than Qatar.
  - b3orn 7y ago
    You mean Lower Saxony. Saxony is a different state on the other side of Germany, that has no voting rights in VW.
  - germanier 7y ago
    It should be noted that all the profit from state owned shares ends up in the independent Volkswagen Foundation (promoting science), not the state budget.
thinkcontext 7y ago
> typical company cars that will very rarely use the electric engine This is backwards, plugin hybrids rarely use their gas engines. BMW 330e 2020 has a 20 mile electric only range (about the same as Prius Prime). Average German car trip distance is 11 miles [0] Even if the trip is longer than 20 miles, it will only use the gas after the electric runs out. [0] Large PDF, average car trip distance on page 50 https://setis.ec.europa.eu/system/files/Driving_and_parking_patterns_of_European_car_drivers-a_mobility_survey.pdf https://setis.ec.europa.eu/system/files/Driving_and_parking_...

Vysero 7y ago

I would love to be able to buy an electric car here in Montana (US) but how would I charge it? Either way I couldn't afford it. Even at a conservative estimate of 20k that's still too much considering I can go out and buy a used car that gets 20mpg for 5k and keep it for the next 100k miles. I realize this is a bit off topic but I get so bitter when I heard about other countries converting to electric. I just wish someone would make and sell a reliable electric car in the states for around 10-15k and provide me with enough utility stations to make it practical to use.

windsurfer 7y ago
May I ask why you wouldn't be able to charge it at home? It is my understanding that most people simply charge their electric cars overnight, much like their phones.
- vkou 7y ago
  My apartment building does not have, and by my best guess, will never have car chargers in its parking garage. And I'm lucky enough to have a parking garage. At least ~70% of the people living in my area park on the street, where there are... Also no chargers.
  - hannasanarion 7y ago
    Have you considered asking them if they would install one? They aren't that expensive, only about $1000 bucks, and I think there are some federal subsidies. With a service like Chargepoint, there is no cost to the landlord at all. They have a brochure you can print out on their website. Failing that you can park near a regular 120v outlet and use level 1 charging, which fills up most cars in about 8 hours.
    - close04 7y ago
      > a regular 120v outlet and use level 1 charging, which fills up most cars in about 8 hours A regular 120V outlet is 15A at best (usually 12A). That's barely enough to charge a PHEV in 8h, let alone a BEV. Practical example [0]: > connected to a 240V outlet, the onboard 7.7kW charger should take the battery from 0-100% SoC in 2 hours 25 min. (A 120V charge will take a bit longer at just over 16.5 hours.) [0] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/10/on-the-road-with-audis-new-q5-and-a8-tfsi-e-plug-in-hybrids/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/10/on-the-road-with-audis-...

GrayTextIsTruth 7y ago

Not electric motorcycles? They are electric AND require less energy to move from point A to B.

gpm 7y ago
They probably require a lot more doctor time to move from point A to point B though.
- llampx 7y ago
  Cars make everyone require a lot more doctor time in the form of treatments for asthma, bronchitis and obesity. Not to mention in the form of making driving so boring that drivers fill the time with texting and cause accidents, killing cyclists in the process.
- devmunchies 7y ago
  And? its an environmental initiative. I'm fine with more human risk. Its the greener option. This is Germany too, so there's already a lot more riders than in the US so drivers are accustomed to see them.
  - gpm 7y ago
    And the subsidized medical system is already subsidizing your bike. Call it an environmental subsidy for your bike if you wish. (I don't actually know how healthcare works in Germany, not being German, but I assume it's like other first world countries in that it's subsidized by taxpayers).
    - devmunchies 7y ago
      motorcycle accidents are overwhelmingly caused by car drivers who weren't paying attention. So why would any medical cost be blamed on the motorcyclists?
Tepix 7y ago
I'd like to see them subsidize ebikes (pedelecs) more. Currently you can get a tax break but that's it.

BLanen 7y ago

Terrible. Horribly ineffective for co2 reduction, but politically palatable by the upper class because they'll be the ones most benefiting from it.