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I really wish we'd see Google employees protesting AMP or abusive search practices... There's so much Google is doing to directly damage the technology ecosyst

I really wish we'd see Google employees protesting AMP or abusive search practices... There's so much Google is doing to directly damage the technology ecosystem. It seems silly to protest some customer's business when Google itself is generating a ton of protest worthy things. I don't care about Google employee's opinions on Big Oil or ICE but I absolutely care about their opinions on removing URLs from search results and hijacking link clicks. The latter is something they can and should fix as they created the problem in the first place.

jayd16 7y ago
They did shut down that China search engine Dragonfly so its not like its non-existent.
stiray 7y ago
I can only agree. It is like in our country where people are donating for "poor african children" by UNICEF while there are thousands of people living in 100 miles radious where they could help them much more efficiently by giving them food, shelter, even warm word, without half of their effort (money) sinking into endless pit of UNICEF organisation. Same thing here. Instead of fighting the fight where they could benefit whole internet by obstructing google, lets say it mildly, shady bussiness, they are fighting for some strange, far away couses with doubtfull results (or even - any results). Not saying it is worse than doing nothing but it is more like PR (company or personal) than anything else, somewhere close to: "let us talk, talking doesnt hurt and it doesnt change anything, so lets discuss some more".
- davidcbc 7y ago
  While I, as a Googler, don't approve of every decision the company makes, I don't think any of them are going to cause a mass extinction event, so climate change is a higher priority for me.
Yuval_Halevi 7y ago
>I don't care about Google employee's opinions on Big Oil or ICE but I absolutely care about their opinions on removing URLs from search results and hijacking link clicks. The latter is something they can and should fix as they created the problem in the first place. Such a contervetional saying, but I get what you mean. They have more authority in their niche so they should fight for rights in something they are expert at. But I do think that the fact Google employees are protesting against the company deal with Big Oild is good because it generates a lot of PR and awareness around the subject, Exactly like how Blizzard cause the situation in HK to be x10 more viral
tiborsaas 7y ago
Links were already removed a long time ago when they switch from URL strings to this format: https://www.thoughtco.com › ... › Science › Chemistry › Chemical Laws
- deelowe 7y ago
  I just went to google and searched ycombinator. This is copy/pasted from the first result (Copy Link Address): --> https://www.ycombinator.com/ https://www.ycombinator.com/ What am I missing?
  - teddyh 7y ago
    When you right-click and copy, Javascript code runs which replaces the link with the real URL. If you simply click on it, however, you get a tracking URL which then imperceptibly quickly redirects to the real URL.
  - tiborsaas 7y ago
    That they use it inconsistently ATM: few results lower, the green "URL": https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Y_Combinator
Voloskaya 7y ago
> There's so much Google is doing to directly damage the technology ecosystem. It seems silly to protest some customer's business when Google itself is generating a ton of protest worthy things. Probably because employees motivated enough to protest value the actual ecosystem more than the technological one, and care more about detention camps at the border than an url format? (just a wild guess)
- brokenkebab 7y ago
  Your comment is essentially "How can we care about A when someone's suffering from B in Kolechia?" which is a emotionally manipulative argument, actually. You still can, and should pay attention to issues one step away from you.
  - roenxi 7y ago
    That argument would be emotionally manipulative, but that isn't the major problem here. Society's use of oil and gas is a totally political question of how much pain we experience in the near term vs the long term and who pays for any trade-offs that get made. It is not kosher for employees of a company to use their corporate position to push what are private political goals. Particularly because Google's position in the world is to provide people with facts and evidence - if they are being pressured internally by political actors then that compromises their trustworthiness as a search provider. They aren't a traditional media organisation where a page full of propaganda and lies is par for the course and everyone knows it. People expect them to use a politically neutral algorithm. Are there people who believe that we need "urgent and decisive action" on political topics who have influence over the search index? How are they using that influence? What would happen if the next generation of employees have a radically different political view? These aren't new questions; Google's rankings are always going to be an interesting subject - and there is every chance that someone is running a smear campaign with stories of these intercompany issues. However, they are the important questions when Google employees do something political.
    - magicalist 7y ago
bcrosby95 7y ago
You seem to be assuming they think they're a problem. Not everyone finds AMP or Google's search practices problematic.
- baggy_trough 7y ago
  Certainly Google employees would not be highly incentivized to do so.
- icebraining 7y ago
  Exactly. It's kind of amazing how so many people can't conceive that others may have different moral codes than them. Or who think that recognizing those differences must mean one has to defend them all.
- matz1 7y ago
  This. As a user, I think AMP is great.
  - Angostura 7y ago
    As a user, I prefer to see the actual website, rather than Google's walled garden version. Hopefully Web browsers will begin to add an 'avoid AMP version' preference.
    - jayd16 7y ago
      Pretty sure there are browser extensions. I haven't tried them at all though.
      - gnicholas 7y ago
        What about options on mobile? I wish Firefox Focus could avoid them, as that’s what I use for search on mobile.
  - sergiotapia 7y ago
    As a user I think they're a blight on the internet as a whole and in danger of changing the internet for the worse if unchecked.
Kiro 7y ago
While I agree I don't think AMP is a good example since it's not unanimously considered a bad thing. I like it and so do many other people in countries with bad internet connections.
- privateSFacct 7y ago
  I have great internet and like it - sometimes I think I had a cache hit - but it’s just amp. For some reason it usually is also less bogged down w ads - any idea why?
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  AMP is a requirement to push your search ranking for Google searches. So it essentially can become a requirement and a mechanism to lock people into the eco system. I don't get why I shouldn't absolutely detest it.
  - bduerst 7y ago
    So is every other SEO practice, by definition. Why is AMP any different than other usability pushes?
    - maxhille 7y ago
      Exactly, I remember Google promoting tools to improve your website for years prior to AMP. Yet, we ended up with an insanely bloated web. AMP might not be the perfect solution but shows me as a user that mobile news sites can be comfortable. Also, I always had the feeling that the AMP team seemed pretty receptive to community input, I don't have any first hand experience, though.
- gowld 7y ago
  Name 1 thing people protest that is unanimously considered a bad thing.
quantummkv 7y ago
> The latter is something they can and should fix as they created the problem in the first place. That is whole point you see. Activists like these don't want to do anything. I would even say that they actually even don't want their own protests to succeed. They protest only for the sake of protesting.
asdfman123 7y ago
Yeah, it's pretty silly to protest indirect involvement in a commodity you use every day instead of your direct engineering decisions.
- andygates 7y ago
  That's the lazy old "and yet you participate in society," non-argument. Try harder. We can't get to "better" if we don't try.
frozenlettuce 7y ago
They prefer to point fingers at other industries and say that their money is dirty. What they forget is that tech is an enabler to other industries - not and end in itself.
- jayd16 7y ago
  But...They didn't forget. That's why they're protesting. So they don't enable that industry.
- wastedhours 7y ago
  ...exactly, they're protesting to stop the tech company being an enabler.
omnifischer 7y ago
Sorry HN-user from developing world (Bangladesh). All AMP pages are about 10 % size of standard pages - at least for the newspapers and blogs. Until you tell all your webdevs/managers to remove all tracking+loading 25 scripts from universe... Please keep AMP. From Guardian, BBC to Washpost or our national dailies - it is horribly slow. Our dailies also show 'notifications' even on desktop!
- input_sh 7y ago
  Firefox and Safari solve that same issue (with reader view) without the need to destroy open web in the process.
  - jm_l 7y ago
    I don't believe Firefox reader saves bandwidth, just alters the users view.
  - derivagral 7y ago
    I love reader view in Firefox, but is it possible to set it default in Android? Otherwise I still have to load most of the assets.
  - mattnewton 7y ago
    They don't download less bytes, they just throw them away. It's a solution to a different problem (that the site has become unusable, not that it loads unbearably slow) Disclaimer: I'm a googler, my options are my own, I am not connected to the AMP project.
    - pmoriarty 7y ago
      "Disclaimer: I'm a googler, my options are my own, I am not connected to the AMP project." Nice Freudian slip which points to one important reason why some Googlers won't criticize their own company's behavior.
      - mattnewton 7y ago
hos234 7y ago
Thats the ultimate destination. But it's also where they will meet the maximum resistance. They have to build momentum with easier victories before the assault on the main gates. That's how culture changes. Direct attacks on status quo culture will always fail cause Defenses are already in place to squash them.
jkingsbery 7y ago
Maybe employees of Big Oil companies should start protesting that their companies use Google products?
klyrs 7y ago
> I really wish we'd see Google employees protesting AMP or abusive search practices... I'd like to see oil company workers protesting the oil companies, or ICE employees freeing children from detention centers, but we all know why that isn't a thing -- folks don't apply to such work if they don't believe in the core mission. If you as a tech worker dislike Google's practices, you should attempt to dissuade your employer from financially supporting Google. If they persist, you can go public about your objections, organize a strike, or quit.
option_greek 7y ago
Going by the trend, googlers probably expect their plumbers, electricians, banks and other company employees that provide service to Google protest about AMP :)
samirillian 7y ago
I agree, but I think this is a step in the right direction. Gotta work your way up! Outlaw oil, then AMP, then Javascript.
sureaboutthis 7y ago
I wonder how many Googlers would lose their job if Google dropped those contracts.
mda 7y ago
Why do you think AMP is bad? Opinions of HN bubble hardly represent anything universal. Actually HN is the only place I see people thinks AMP is the most evil thing in Internet.
joshypants 7y ago
It's really not about broadcasting their opinions to you, it's about getting the company to make changes that help mitigate climate change, which threatens the safety of everyone on planet earth?
Bartweiss 7y ago
> something they can and should fix as they created the problem in the first place Isn't the other view that this is exactly why Google employees aren't objecting? Not just in a "biting the hand that feeds you" sense, either. There's a selection effect in place: anyone currently working at Google either developed those practices, supported their use, or wasn't upset enough to avoid working there. Working with oil and surveillance gets protested precisely because it's not central to what Google employees do; it makes those projects easier to stop, and means that there are people who both work at Google and reject those projects.
notatoad 7y ago
Believing cached webpages and the visibility of URLs on search results is somehow comprable to the effects of oil pollution has got to be right at the peak of HN absurdity.
Razengan 7y ago
> There's so much Google is doing to directly damage the technology ecosystem. The best way to counter that is to work on alternatives. I've always wondered why search couldn't be like DNS or server-side caches; every server could index all the content that passes through it, and clients would query all nearby servers. Other HNers have previously said that indexing is the easy part; it's providing relevant results and reducing spam that's hard. Well, when the indexing is freely available to everyone, maybe we could use on-device client apps to navigate that index, each with our own preferences.

jayd16 7y ago

They did shut down that China search engine Dragonfly so its not like its non-existent.

stiray 7y ago

I can only agree. It is like in our country where people are donating for "poor african children" by UNICEF while there are thousands of people living in 100 miles radious where they could help them much more efficiently by giving them food, shelter, even warm word, without half of their effort (money) sinking into endless pit of UNICEF organisation. Same thing here. Instead of fighting the fight where they could benefit whole internet by obstructing google, lets say it mildly, shady bussiness, they are fighting for some strange, far away couses with doubtfull results (or even - any results). Not saying it is worse than doing nothing but it is more like PR (company or personal) than anything else, somewhere close to: "let us talk, talking doesnt hurt and it doesnt change anything, so lets discuss some more".

davidcbc 7y ago
While I, as a Googler, don't approve of every decision the company makes, I don't think any of them are going to cause a mass extinction event, so climate change is a higher priority for me.

Yuval_Halevi 7y ago

>I don't care about Google employee's opinions on Big Oil or ICE but I absolutely care about their opinions on removing URLs from search results and hijacking link clicks. The latter is something they can and should fix as they created the problem in the first place. Such a contervetional saying, but I get what you mean. They have more authority in their niche so they should fight for rights in something they are expert at. But I do think that the fact Google employees are protesting against the company deal with Big Oild is good because it generates a lot of PR and awareness around the subject, Exactly like how Blizzard cause the situation in HK to be x10 more viral

tiborsaas 7y ago

Links were already removed a long time ago when they switch from URL strings to this format: https://www.thoughtco.com › ... › Science › Chemistry › Chemical Laws

deelowe 7y ago
I just went to google and searched ycombinator. This is copy/pasted from the first result (Copy Link Address): --> https://www.ycombinator.com/ https://www.ycombinator.com/ What am I missing?
- teddyh 7y ago
  When you right-click and copy, Javascript code runs which replaces the link with the real URL. If you simply click on it, however, you get a tracking URL which then imperceptibly quickly redirects to the real URL.
- tiborsaas 7y ago
  That they use it inconsistently ATM: few results lower, the green "URL": https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Y_Combinator

Voloskaya 7y ago

> There's so much Google is doing to directly damage the technology ecosystem. It seems silly to protest some customer's business when Google itself is generating a ton of protest worthy things. Probably because employees motivated enough to protest value the actual ecosystem more than the technological one, and care more about detention camps at the border than an url format? (just a wild guess)

brokenkebab 7y ago
Your comment is essentially "How can we care about A when someone's suffering from B in Kolechia?" which is a emotionally manipulative argument, actually. You still can, and should pay attention to issues one step away from you.
- roenxi 7y ago
  That argument would be emotionally manipulative, but that isn't the major problem here. Society's use of oil and gas is a totally political question of how much pain we experience in the near term vs the long term and who pays for any trade-offs that get made. It is not kosher for employees of a company to use their corporate position to push what are private political goals. Particularly because Google's position in the world is to provide people with facts and evidence - if they are being pressured internally by political actors then that compromises their trustworthiness as a search provider. They aren't a traditional media organisation where a page full of propaganda and lies is par for the course and everyone knows it. People expect them to use a politically neutral algorithm. Are there people who believe that we need "urgent and decisive action" on political topics who have influence over the search index? How are they using that influence? What would happen if the next generation of employees have a radically different political view? These aren't new questions; Google's rankings are always going to be an interesting subject - and there is every chance that someone is running a smear campaign with stories of these intercompany issues. However, they are the important questions when Google employees do something political.
  - magicalist 7y ago

bcrosby95 7y ago

You seem to be assuming they think they're a problem. Not everyone finds AMP or Google's search practices problematic.

baggy_trough 7y ago
Certainly Google employees would not be highly incentivized to do so.
icebraining 7y ago
Exactly. It's kind of amazing how so many people can't conceive that others may have different moral codes than them. Or who think that recognizing those differences must mean one has to defend them all.
matz1 7y ago
This. As a user, I think AMP is great.
- Angostura 7y ago
  As a user, I prefer to see the actual website, rather than Google's walled garden version. Hopefully Web browsers will begin to add an 'avoid AMP version' preference.
  - jayd16 7y ago
    Pretty sure there are browser extensions. I haven't tried them at all though.
    - gnicholas 7y ago
      What about options on mobile? I wish Firefox Focus could avoid them, as that’s what I use for search on mobile.
- sergiotapia 7y ago
  As a user I think they're a blight on the internet as a whole and in danger of changing the internet for the worse if unchecked.

Kiro 7y ago

While I agree I don't think AMP is a good example since it's not unanimously considered a bad thing. I like it and so do many other people in countries with bad internet connections.

privateSFacct 7y ago
I have great internet and like it - sometimes I think I had a cache hit - but it’s just amp. For some reason it usually is also less bogged down w ads - any idea why?
raxxorrax 7y ago
AMP is a requirement to push your search ranking for Google searches. So it essentially can become a requirement and a mechanism to lock people into the eco system. I don't get why I shouldn't absolutely detest it.
- bduerst 7y ago
  So is every other SEO practice, by definition. Why is AMP any different than other usability pushes?
  - maxhille 7y ago
    Exactly, I remember Google promoting tools to improve your website for years prior to AMP. Yet, we ended up with an insanely bloated web. AMP might not be the perfect solution but shows me as a user that mobile news sites can be comfortable. Also, I always had the feeling that the AMP team seemed pretty receptive to community input, I don't have any first hand experience, though.
gowld 7y ago
Name 1 thing people protest that is unanimously considered a bad thing.

quantummkv 7y ago

> The latter is something they can and should fix as they created the problem in the first place. That is whole point you see. Activists like these don't want to do anything. I would even say that they actually even don't want their own protests to succeed. They protest only for the sake of protesting.

asdfman123 7y ago

Yeah, it's pretty silly to protest indirect involvement in a commodity you use every day instead of your direct engineering decisions.

andygates 7y ago
That's the lazy old "and yet you participate in society," non-argument. Try harder. We can't get to "better" if we don't try.

frozenlettuce 7y ago

They prefer to point fingers at other industries and say that their money is dirty. What they forget is that tech is an enabler to other industries - not and end in itself.

jayd16 7y ago
But...They didn't forget. That's why they're protesting. So they don't enable that industry.
wastedhours 7y ago
...exactly, they're protesting to stop the tech company being an enabler.

omnifischer 7y ago

Sorry HN-user from developing world (Bangladesh). All AMP pages are about 10 % size of standard pages - at least for the newspapers and blogs. Until you tell all your webdevs/managers to remove all tracking+loading 25 scripts from universe... Please keep AMP. From Guardian, BBC to Washpost or our national dailies - it is horribly slow. Our dailies also show 'notifications' even on desktop!

input_sh 7y ago
Firefox and Safari solve that same issue (with reader view) without the need to destroy open web in the process.
- jm_l 7y ago
  I don't believe Firefox reader saves bandwidth, just alters the users view.
- derivagral 7y ago
  I love reader view in Firefox, but is it possible to set it default in Android? Otherwise I still have to load most of the assets.
- mattnewton 7y ago
  They don't download less bytes, they just throw them away. It's a solution to a different problem (that the site has become unusable, not that it loads unbearably slow) Disclaimer: I'm a googler, my options are my own, I am not connected to the AMP project.
  - pmoriarty 7y ago
    "Disclaimer: I'm a googler, my options are my own, I am not connected to the AMP project." Nice Freudian slip which points to one important reason why some Googlers won't criticize their own company's behavior.
    - mattnewton 7y ago

hos234 7y ago

Thats the ultimate destination. But it's also where they will meet the maximum resistance. They have to build momentum with easier victories before the assault on the main gates. That's how culture changes. Direct attacks on status quo culture will always fail cause Defenses are already in place to squash them.

jkingsbery 7y ago

Maybe employees of Big Oil companies should start protesting that their companies use Google products?

klyrs 7y ago

> I really wish we'd see Google employees protesting AMP or abusive search practices... I'd like to see oil company workers protesting the oil companies, or ICE employees freeing children from detention centers, but we all know why that isn't a thing -- folks don't apply to such work if they don't believe in the core mission. If you as a tech worker dislike Google's practices, you should attempt to dissuade your employer from financially supporting Google. If they persist, you can go public about your objections, organize a strike, or quit.

option_greek 7y ago

Going by the trend, googlers probably expect their plumbers, electricians, banks and other company employees that provide service to Google protest about AMP :)

samirillian 7y ago

I agree, but I think this is a step in the right direction. Gotta work your way up! Outlaw oil, then AMP, then Javascript.

sureaboutthis 7y ago

I wonder how many Googlers would lose their job if Google dropped those contracts.

mda 7y ago

Why do you think AMP is bad? Opinions of HN bubble hardly represent anything universal. Actually HN is the only place I see people thinks AMP is the most evil thing in Internet.

joshypants 7y ago

It's really not about broadcasting their opinions to you, it's about getting the company to make changes that help mitigate climate change, which threatens the safety of everyone on planet earth?

Bartweiss 7y ago

> something they can and should fix as they created the problem in the first place Isn't the other view that this is exactly why Google employees aren't objecting? Not just in a "biting the hand that feeds you" sense, either. There's a selection effect in place: anyone currently working at Google either developed those practices, supported their use, or wasn't upset enough to avoid working there. Working with oil and surveillance gets protested precisely because it's not central to what Google employees do; it makes those projects easier to stop, and means that there are people who both work at Google and reject those projects.

notatoad 7y ago

Believing cached webpages and the visibility of URLs on search results is somehow comprable to the effects of oil pollution has got to be right at the peak of HN absurdity.

Razengan 7y ago

> There's so much Google is doing to directly damage the technology ecosystem. The best way to counter that is to work on alternatives. I've always wondered why search couldn't be like DNS or server-side caches; every server could index all the content that passes through it, and clients would query all nearby servers. Other HNers have previously said that indexing is the easy part; it's providing relevant results and reducing spam that's hard. Well, when the indexing is freely available to everyone, maybe we could use on-device client apps to navigate that index, each with our own preferences.