3 ms·

Note: I see you're being downvoted. While your comment may sound harsh, I see it as well meant advice and take the candor of the message as something valuable.

Note: I see you're being downvoted. While your comment may sound harsh, I see it as well meant advice and take the candor of the message as something valuable. And now that I think of it, I can definitely see that I come across as submissive. I'm reflecting on myself on whether I am dismissive, which I find very tough to answer (on the one hand no because CRUD apps are valuable, on the other hand yes, because CRUD apps are simply not that complicated to other programming things? Such as concurrency, for example, I suppose making any normative statement as strongly as I do sounds dismissive and it probably is). I described one reason why I'd be fine with CRUD apps. There's another reason: at university I was always breaking my brain when I tried to learn programming. That intensified when I tried to learn security. I think it'd be nice to have a break and not break my brain that much. I'm not saying I wouldn't think at all when I'd do CRUD, or not face difficult situations, because I probably will. But compared to what I've experienced at uni, it's a pretty nice walk around the park and a lot less of a headache (from what I've experienced during my freelance gigs).

perl4ever 7y ago
Something it took me a long time to see clearly - People talk about all sorts of things they supposedly need to have satisfaction in their work, but they are mostly red herrings. People get obsessed with benefits and qualifications and pay and titles and status and all sorts of nebulous things when they know they are missing something, but don't know what. What matters is a sense that you are doing meaningful work. All the other stuff, like the technologies you work with, the quality of your co-workers and management, the free coffee and lunch or lack thereof, will not provide substitutes in the long run. And, by "meaningful", I don't mean glamorous, change-the-world stuff that appeals to vanity. Clearing out drains (or the IT equivalent) is useful and meaningful. By lack of meaning, I'm talking about anything that amounts to digging ditches to fill them in again. Unfortunately, most job ads and recruiters assume that who you work for and why don't matter much at all - they just are looking for someone with a list of tech skills to plug in to a machine. So, I would say what's worked to some extent for me is temping and volunteering and getting to know different people and organizations.
Aeolun 7y ago
From my perspective as interviewer: - No university student actually knows how to code until they prove otherwise, this is why a portfolio is so important. University assignments count too if they’re complex enough. - If I’m going to hire them they’d better be here for a few years because I’m going to spend months getting them up to speed, so someone that clearly doesn’t like working on my stuff is out (of course I’m aware we make boring software, but you need to at least show some enthusiasm for the process if not the result). - I don’t give more than a passing glance to academic qualifications. Especially in the Netherlands, if you finish uni I have a pretty good idea what you are capable off in general terms. A fast track would be nice if you otherwise know what to do, but that last is way more important. There are plenty of challenges in building CRUD apps, and none of them have to do with coding. In fact, I’d argue that most of the challenge of development of anything does not come from coding at all once you reach a certain degree of competence (expectation management, time management, etc.) Anyhow, most of the valuable software in the world is a CRUD app (think Facebook?), so it’s one of the most likely things you’ll work on.
unlinked_dll 7y ago
I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle. CRUD is to development what a hammer is to a carpenter or someone framing a house. It's just a tool you use to get the job done, not the part of the job you find rewarding (building the product). If you want some unsolicited advice, stop looking at CRUD jobs or jobs that mention it extensively. Go out and find an industry that interests you and look for engineering roles at companies in that industry you'd like to work at. It may involve CRUD, it may not. Regardless, it's weird to focus on that part of the gig exclusively. Personally, all my jobs have been independent of the tech stack or what they use to solve the problem. I've done backend stuff, embedded, a bit of GUI design, desktop apps... all of it was motivated by the industries that the companies were focused on and the products they made. Not the tech they used to build them.

perl4ever 7y ago

Something it took me a long time to see clearly - People talk about all sorts of things they supposedly need to have satisfaction in their work, but they are mostly red herrings. People get obsessed with benefits and qualifications and pay and titles and status and all sorts of nebulous things when they know they are missing something, but don't know what. What matters is a sense that you are doing meaningful work. All the other stuff, like the technologies you work with, the quality of your co-workers and management, the free coffee and lunch or lack thereof, will not provide substitutes in the long run. And, by "meaningful", I don't mean glamorous, change-the-world stuff that appeals to vanity. Clearing out drains (or the IT equivalent) is useful and meaningful. By lack of meaning, I'm talking about anything that amounts to digging ditches to fill them in again. Unfortunately, most job ads and recruiters assume that who you work for and why don't matter much at all - they just are looking for someone with a list of tech skills to plug in to a machine. So, I would say what's worked to some extent for me is temping and volunteering and getting to know different people and organizations.

Aeolun 7y ago

From my perspective as interviewer: - No university student actually knows how to code until they prove otherwise, this is why a portfolio is so important. University assignments count too if they’re complex enough. - If I’m going to hire them they’d better be here for a few years because I’m going to spend months getting them up to speed, so someone that clearly doesn’t like working on my stuff is out (of course I’m aware we make boring software, but you need to at least show some enthusiasm for the process if not the result). - I don’t give more than a passing glance to academic qualifications. Especially in the Netherlands, if you finish uni I have a pretty good idea what you are capable off in general terms. A fast track would be nice if you otherwise know what to do, but that last is way more important. There are plenty of challenges in building CRUD apps, and none of them have to do with coding. In fact, I’d argue that most of the challenge of development of anything does not come from coding at all once you reach a certain degree of competence (expectation management, time management, etc.) Anyhow, most of the valuable software in the world is a CRUD app (think Facebook?), so it’s one of the most likely things you’ll work on.

unlinked_dll 7y ago

I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle. CRUD is to development what a hammer is to a carpenter or someone framing a house. It's just a tool you use to get the job done, not the part of the job you find rewarding (building the product). If you want some unsolicited advice, stop looking at CRUD jobs or jobs that mention it extensively. Go out and find an industry that interests you and look for engineering roles at companies in that industry you'd like to work at. It may involve CRUD, it may not. Regardless, it's weird to focus on that part of the gig exclusively. Personally, all my jobs have been independent of the tech stack or what they use to solve the problem. I've done backend stuff, embedded, a bit of GUI design, desktop apps... all of it was motivated by the industries that the companies were focused on and the products they made. Not the tech they used to build them.