4 ms·

I think it's instructive to realize that mainland Chinese people are being fed state propaganda about "rioters" destroying HK and demanding independence, thus t

I think it's instructive to realize that mainland Chinese people are being fed state propaganda about "rioters" destroying HK and demanding independence, thus their opinions should be weighted lesser on the issue accordingly. The sparse examples I've seen of Chinese people actually being exposed to the reality in HK and being surprised, tells me the state media is being effective in its Ministry of Truth role.

knzhou 7y ago
Honest question: have you personally seen the "propaganda" of the other side? If you've only seen one side, how are you so completely sure you know which one is right?
- FussyZeus 7y ago
  As a general rule, if millions of people are upset enough about something to take to the streets and risk being injured or killed by the police, it's a pretty safe bet that something in their government is fucked and in need of fixing.
  - knzhou 7y ago
    If you apply this consistently, you should also be sure that Brexiteers, the yellow vest protestors, and the Catalonian independent movement show that European government is fucked. (If you do, I respect that, but if you don't, consider why you think some mass anti-government protests are more sympathetic than others.)
    - FussyZeus 7y ago
      Are you asserting Brexit isn't a massive failure of the British Government? They punted a critical and complex problem to the citizenry, and then advertised outright lies as benefits, and even many British people now recognize they were in no position to make a meaningful judgement of that issue and vote on it. I don't know what the yellow vest protest is. Catalonian independence is something I agree with. They've been exploited extremely hard by Spain more or less since they lost their autonomy.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      >you should also be sure that Brexiteers, the yellow vest protestors, and the Catalonian independent movement show that European government is fucked. That's exactly what they show. Whether these groups favored solutions to the fuck-ness are the correct solutions totally tangential to that. When people take to the streets something ain't right.
      - FussyZeus 7y ago
        > Whether these groups favored solutions to the fuck-ness are the correct solutions totally tangential to that. When people take to the streets something ain't right. This, exactly. It takes a lot to get people to resort to civil unrest. I wish it was respected as being that, the last resort of a populace losing faith in it's leadership, and not derided as it is so often as just people who disagree with something. Protests should be a sign of not just disagreement but profound disgust not just for what is being done, but for the processes and the system that permitted it to happen in the first place.
    - celticmusic 7y ago
      Are you implying that brexit protesters were in being injured and/or killed by the police?
  - umanwizard 7y ago
    Zero people have been killed by the police in the current Hong Kong protests, as far as we know.
    - FussyZeus 7y ago
      Probably why I used the words risk and injured.
    - cwkoss 7y ago
      Many protestors have been disappeared by imprisonment, and presumably shipped off to the mainland. Quite plausible a number of them have died, and this fact is being hidden because it would cause global outrage. China has historically been secretive about their extensive use of political and ethnic prisons and their use of prisoners for organ harvesting. Body of a 15 year old female protestor was found floating naked in the sea. Many speculate she was raped and killed by police. We do have evidence of torture: HK police (or mainland military acting as such) posing with an individual in a 'tiger chair' and mocking their suffering.
  - vbezhenar 7y ago
    And how many millions of people are disturbed by those protests?
    - PavlovsCat 7y ago
      https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dpn9oy/man_gets_pepper_sprayed_in_the_face_for_asking_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dpn9oy/man_gets_p... I for one don't weigh issues like this by the number of people who are on side X, I weigh individual people by the positions they take on such issues.
    - skinnymuch 7y ago
      The one counter example by sibling commenter with the abuse protestors get is reprehensible. How do things like that not outweigh whatever minor inconveniences of disturbance are happening for the people you mention?
- zentiggr 7y ago
  I used the word sparse deliberately: I have only seen two news reports involving mainland Chinese citizens visting Hong Kong and commenting on their observations. Both were surprised, almost shocked, that the rioting, damage to public and private buildings, and constant street fighting, with deaths on both sides,that they had heard about was completely untrue. Both seemed to want to temper their comments but still were very surprised that the story they had been told was so different from the things they saw in person.
SkyBelow 7y ago
To get a even more generic, but to what extent is all of our social morals based on the information society provides us? In 200 years, what will modern society then look back on us and condemn us for buying into the propaganda on issues that, if they were mentioned right now, would be seen as clearly having a right/wrong choice that is not influenced by propaganda?
p3rls 7y ago
there's a ton of chicom types like carl_zha still on twitter that you can check out as it's obvious you haven't looked into this issue at all
- zentiggr 7y ago
  I will admit I haven't gone researching for attitudes of people from the rest of China, and I'm rarely on any social media sites, so I haven't seen much except whats been posted in a couple of channels from a very few people in Hong Kong. My two points of data involving Chinese residents visiting HK and commenting on the difference between the media stories they had heard, and what they experienced in HK personally, were the basis of my comment. I am certainly aware that there are about 7 billion different opinions about this topic.

knzhou 7y ago

Honest question: have you personally seen the "propaganda" of the other side? If you've only seen one side, how are you so completely sure you know which one is right?

FussyZeus 7y ago
As a general rule, if millions of people are upset enough about something to take to the streets and risk being injured or killed by the police, it's a pretty safe bet that something in their government is fucked and in need of fixing.
- knzhou 7y ago
  If you apply this consistently, you should also be sure that Brexiteers, the yellow vest protestors, and the Catalonian independent movement show that European government is fucked. (If you do, I respect that, but if you don't, consider why you think some mass anti-government protests are more sympathetic than others.)
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    Are you asserting Brexit isn't a massive failure of the British Government? They punted a critical and complex problem to the citizenry, and then advertised outright lies as benefits, and even many British people now recognize they were in no position to make a meaningful judgement of that issue and vote on it. I don't know what the yellow vest protest is. Catalonian independence is something I agree with. They've been exploited extremely hard by Spain more or less since they lost their autonomy.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    >you should also be sure that Brexiteers, the yellow vest protestors, and the Catalonian independent movement show that European government is fucked. That's exactly what they show. Whether these groups favored solutions to the fuck-ness are the correct solutions totally tangential to that. When people take to the streets something ain't right.
    - FussyZeus 7y ago
      > Whether these groups favored solutions to the fuck-ness are the correct solutions totally tangential to that. When people take to the streets something ain't right. This, exactly. It takes a lot to get people to resort to civil unrest. I wish it was respected as being that, the last resort of a populace losing faith in it's leadership, and not derided as it is so often as just people who disagree with something. Protests should be a sign of not just disagreement but profound disgust not just for what is being done, but for the processes and the system that permitted it to happen in the first place.
  - celticmusic 7y ago
    Are you implying that brexit protesters were in being injured and/or killed by the police?
- umanwizard 7y ago
  Zero people have been killed by the police in the current Hong Kong protests, as far as we know.
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    Probably why I used the words risk and injured.
  - cwkoss 7y ago
    Many protestors have been disappeared by imprisonment, and presumably shipped off to the mainland. Quite plausible a number of them have died, and this fact is being hidden because it would cause global outrage. China has historically been secretive about their extensive use of political and ethnic prisons and their use of prisoners for organ harvesting. Body of a 15 year old female protestor was found floating naked in the sea. Many speculate she was raped and killed by police. We do have evidence of torture: HK police (or mainland military acting as such) posing with an individual in a 'tiger chair' and mocking their suffering.
- vbezhenar 7y ago
  And how many millions of people are disturbed by those protests?
  - PavlovsCat 7y ago
    https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dpn9oy/man_gets_pepper_sprayed_in_the_face_for_asking_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dpn9oy/man_gets_p... I for one don't weigh issues like this by the number of people who are on side X, I weigh individual people by the positions they take on such issues.
  - skinnymuch 7y ago
    The one counter example by sibling commenter with the abuse protestors get is reprehensible. How do things like that not outweigh whatever minor inconveniences of disturbance are happening for the people you mention?
zentiggr 7y ago
I used the word sparse deliberately: I have only seen two news reports involving mainland Chinese citizens visting Hong Kong and commenting on their observations. Both were surprised, almost shocked, that the rioting, damage to public and private buildings, and constant street fighting, with deaths on both sides,that they had heard about was completely untrue. Both seemed to want to temper their comments but still were very surprised that the story they had been told was so different from the things they saw in person.

SkyBelow 7y ago

To get a even more generic, but to what extent is all of our social morals based on the information society provides us? In 200 years, what will modern society then look back on us and condemn us for buying into the propaganda on issues that, if they were mentioned right now, would be seen as clearly having a right/wrong choice that is not influenced by propaganda?

p3rls 7y ago

there's a ton of chicom types like carl_zha still on twitter that you can check out as it's obvious you haven't looked into this issue at all

zentiggr 7y ago
I will admit I haven't gone researching for attitudes of people from the rest of China, and I'm rarely on any social media sites, so I haven't seen much except whats been posted in a couple of channels from a very few people in Hong Kong. My two points of data involving Chinese residents visiting HK and commenting on the difference between the media stories they had heard, and what they experienced in HK personally, were the basis of my comment. I am certainly aware that there are about 7 billion different opinions about this topic.