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> In America, we understand that there is absolutely nothing more dangerous than an entity that feels entitled to control what is true. It might make things eas

> In America, we understand that there is absolutely nothing more dangerous than an entity that feels entitled to control what is true. It might make things easier, and it might actually produce better results so long as the entity doing so is competent and benevolent, but nearly every structure in America is meant to serve as a bulwark for the cases in which the entity in power is precisely the sort that you do not want to be making those decisions. And to be frank, Europe should probably be more wary of that. I'm not trying to be snarky, but in all honesty, how do you feel this is working out for the US at this very moment?

ralusek 7y ago
There is obviously an upside and a downside. The platitude that "freedom isn't free" is something that seems to be lost on critics of the effects of liberty. I don't think the free speech absolutism present in the US was ever meant to suggest that there isn't such thing as undesirable speech, but rather that the potential for tyranny under regulated speech is a danger well worth avoiding at any cost. In addition to that, America is a country that works forwards from principles much more often than European nations, which very often work backwards from objectives. To frame the right to free speech in regards to whether or not it is "working out" is not a particularly American frame of reference. The principle that individuals should express themselves as they see fit, and that this is the foundation for a free and open society, is essentially square one.
- Matty1992 7y ago
  >In addition to that, America is a country that works forwards from principles much more often than European nations, which very often work backwards from objectives. Have any examples to back this up? I dont even necessarily disagree with your original argument, but can we get away from the Europe vs America debate that always pops up on this board as if they can be compared in a reasonable way? Europe is made up of a bunch of independent countries alot of which have objectives and principles that conflict with other entities within Europe, let alone outside of it
  - krageon 7y ago
    The "America vs Europe debate" only ever pops up when an American comes into a thread telling everyone how wrong they are. As you say it is ironic because the position that there is one "Europe" to compare the US to is one that can only be formed in an environment of ignorance. Asking why was at some point useful, but given the pernicious nature of these discussions and the vehemence with which they are repeated we have to assume they are not going to go away (unless perhaps we ignore them).
    - vonmoltke 7y ago
      > The "America vs Europe debate" only ever pops up when an American comes into a thread telling everyone how wrong they are. European posters do this all the time in health care discussions.
      - asjw 7y ago
        Because US healthcare suck. It's a fact.
        mensetmanusman 7y ago
        It sucks for most, it is amazing for the rich.
  - samdoidge 7y ago
    Free speech.
    - asjw 7y ago
      It should go together with respect
      - samdoidge 7y ago
        Ideally, yes.. but it shouldn't be a condition for it.
- silvester23 7y ago
  > To frame the right to free speech in regards to whether or not it is "working out" is not a particularly American frame of reference. The principle that individuals should express themselves as they see fit, and that this is the foundation for a free and open society, is essentially square one. When I said "working out", I wasn't talking so much about which effects free speech is having (although that is a question well worth asking) but more about whether speech in the US really is as free as it was ~4 years go. Could being attacked on twitter by the president for something you say not be construed as a very real retaliation by the administration and thus a curtailment of free speech?
  - codegrappler 7y ago
    You aren’t being thrown in prison or “disappearing” for saying something counter to the president’s point of view. Even with free speech rights there are still limits though. I can’t go around making violent threats to people without some repercussions.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    > Could being attacked on twitter by the president for something you say not be construed as a very real retaliation by the administration and thus a curtailment of free speech? No, someone talking to you in a public forum, even in a hostile fashion, is not a curtailment of free speech. It’s just free speech. Free speech isn’t the right to not have your feelings hurt. If Trump attacking people worked on Twitter, there wouldn’t be any democrats left in office at this point.
  - jpindar 7y ago
    Being attacked on Twitter by the president would be the best thing that ever happened to me, or to any blogger or news site.
linuxftw 7y ago
> I'm not trying to be snarky, but in all honesty, how do you feel this is working out for the US at this very moment? Great. We still have many of the rights others have been stripped of. We haven't faced any invasions or domestic warfare in over a century, we have the worlds strongest economy, etc etc. Best of all, we can say pretty much whatever we want and not go to jail for it.

ralusek 7y ago

There is obviously an upside and a downside. The platitude that "freedom isn't free" is something that seems to be lost on critics of the effects of liberty. I don't think the free speech absolutism present in the US was ever meant to suggest that there isn't such thing as undesirable speech, but rather that the potential for tyranny under regulated speech is a danger well worth avoiding at any cost. In addition to that, America is a country that works forwards from principles much more often than European nations, which very often work backwards from objectives. To frame the right to free speech in regards to whether or not it is "working out" is not a particularly American frame of reference. The principle that individuals should express themselves as they see fit, and that this is the foundation for a free and open society, is essentially square one.

Matty1992 7y ago
>In addition to that, America is a country that works forwards from principles much more often than European nations, which very often work backwards from objectives. Have any examples to back this up? I dont even necessarily disagree with your original argument, but can we get away from the Europe vs America debate that always pops up on this board as if they can be compared in a reasonable way? Europe is made up of a bunch of independent countries alot of which have objectives and principles that conflict with other entities within Europe, let alone outside of it
- krageon 7y ago
  The "America vs Europe debate" only ever pops up when an American comes into a thread telling everyone how wrong they are. As you say it is ironic because the position that there is one "Europe" to compare the US to is one that can only be formed in an environment of ignorance. Asking why was at some point useful, but given the pernicious nature of these discussions and the vehemence with which they are repeated we have to assume they are not going to go away (unless perhaps we ignore them).
  - vonmoltke 7y ago
    > The "America vs Europe debate" only ever pops up when an American comes into a thread telling everyone how wrong they are. European posters do this all the time in health care discussions.
    - asjw 7y ago
      Because US healthcare suck. It's a fact.
      - mensetmanusman 7y ago
        It sucks for most, it is amazing for the rich.
- samdoidge 7y ago
  Free speech.
  - asjw 7y ago
    It should go together with respect
    - samdoidge 7y ago
      Ideally, yes.. but it shouldn't be a condition for it.
silvester23 7y ago
> To frame the right to free speech in regards to whether or not it is "working out" is not a particularly American frame of reference. The principle that individuals should express themselves as they see fit, and that this is the foundation for a free and open society, is essentially square one. When I said "working out", I wasn't talking so much about which effects free speech is having (although that is a question well worth asking) but more about whether speech in the US really is as free as it was ~4 years go. Could being attacked on twitter by the president for something you say not be construed as a very real retaliation by the administration and thus a curtailment of free speech?
- codegrappler 7y ago
  You aren’t being thrown in prison or “disappearing” for saying something counter to the president’s point of view. Even with free speech rights there are still limits though. I can’t go around making violent threats to people without some repercussions.
- kortilla 7y ago
  > Could being attacked on twitter by the president for something you say not be construed as a very real retaliation by the administration and thus a curtailment of free speech? No, someone talking to you in a public forum, even in a hostile fashion, is not a curtailment of free speech. It’s just free speech. Free speech isn’t the right to not have your feelings hurt. If Trump attacking people worked on Twitter, there wouldn’t be any democrats left in office at this point.
- jpindar 7y ago
  Being attacked on Twitter by the president would be the best thing that ever happened to me, or to any blogger or news site.

linuxftw 7y ago

> I'm not trying to be snarky, but in all honesty, how do you feel this is working out for the US at this very moment? Great. We still have many of the rights others have been stripped of. We haven't faced any invasions or domestic warfare in over a century, we have the worlds strongest economy, etc etc. Best of all, we can say pretty much whatever we want and not go to jail for it.