7 ms·

Veterans want answers as new data shows rise in cancers over two decades of war

130 points by spking 7y ago

grawprog 7y ago
I'm sure the thousands upon thousands of depleted uranium rounds they fired over those years had nothing to with it at all.
- rwcarlsen 7y ago
  The radiological hazard of depleted U is generally considered to by far eclipsed by its chemical toxicity. I just want people to understand that any carcinogenic affects depleted U exposure may have are far more likely to be caused by its general chemical/heavy-metal toxicity. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium#Radiological_hazards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium#Radiological_...
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    How do we know that both effects can't cause damage? Say you survive exposure to chemical poisoning, later in life you may experience cancer.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      We've got a pretty good idea of what cancer rates are for various levels and types of radiation. Toxic chemicals can cause cancer themselves - poisoning isn't the only option there. Coal tar, for example, has no (or minimal) radioactivity, but is still carcinogenic.
      - adrianN 7y ago
        We actually have a rather poor understanding of long term effects of radiation. We have decent models for amounts of radiation that kill you over weeks, but long term low dose exposure is poorly understood.
    - XorNot 7y ago
      Heavy metal toxicity is basically the same as radiation exposure. It's extremely hard to purge the body of heavy metals after you're exposed, and it's one of the reasons plutonium is as dangerous as it is - because it gets incorporated into your bones. It would be surprisingly safe if it just passed right through you (hence the reason it can be safely handled). You don't just "get over" heavy metal poisoning. It has long term effects exactly like radiation, and is more insidious because you can't just wave a geiger counter around to find it.
  - grawprog 7y ago
    https://www.globalresearch.ca/depleted-uranium-weapons-dead-babies-in-iraq-and-afghanistan-are-no-joke/15744 https://www.globalresearch.ca/depleted-uranium-weapons-dead-...
jalgos_eminator 7y ago
I'm not sure about the increase since 2000 (could be better detection methods), but the military is known to use a bunch of toxic chemicals. On the motorcycle forums I frequent I have heard more than a few times about how "The stuff we had when I was in the Army/Navy/AF would have cleaned this up in seconds." And they were only talking about the degreasers and lubricants, not the munitions or other chemicals that were hanging around the base. Read about Agent Orange if you want to be pissed off for the rest of the day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#U.S._veterans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#U.S._veterans
- dv_dt 7y ago
  Maybe they were referring to this. Great solvent, not so great for human health. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethylene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethylene
  - madengr 7y ago
    They used to use this shit at my employer, back in the 80’s, for cleaning circuit boards. Forbid the use of gloves due to electro static discharge. People often complained it would burn their hands. At least they now use d-limonene, which is a food addictive derived from orange skin oil.
  - tyingq 7y ago
    Can confirm this was used by enlisted electronic techs in the USAF in the 1980's. Similar for also questionable, but less lethal organic solvents like MEK. Gloves were specifically forbidden, and breathing gear wasn't present. I was young and didn't know better. Got several govt letters later asking me to opt out of lawsuits in exchange for free VA services.
- scruple 7y ago
  I could write a novel about this. My father was exposed to and handled Agent Orange in Vietnam. An uncle, as well. My uncle passed in 2007, riddled with cancers, fighting the VA every step of the way. That man served nearly 35 years before retiring. Their generation coined the phrase "Delay, deny, and hope that we die." due to their experiences with the VA. I decided not to be a helpless by-stander when it was my fathers time to contend with the VA. I took nearly 3 years off of my life and moved back home to help him. He was eventually able to successfully obtain a disability rating and was able to get prior/existing health issues linked to his exposure, which secured disability back pay to the 90s. All of this, his experience and the back pay, specifically, is something of an outlier, as we understand it. As we understand it, most folks don't have the resources to navigate the system successfully. It wasn't a massive financial windfall, but it meant that my parents future was financially secure (their finances were in ruins by the mid-00s) and once he was mobile again, with his health issues under control and with an effective management plan in place, I was able to get back on with my own life. There are also inter-generational effects with Agent Orange, but they're not very well understood (to my knowledge). That frightens me today, especially now that I've had my own children. There's a whole other dynamic there, too, in that I also served, and that I've been exposed to burn pits and a lot of diesel fumes and high RF environments and some solvents and etc... I feel like it's an inevitability in my own life's story that I'll eventually have to contend with the VA, as well.
rdlecler1 7y ago
Could this not be stress related?
- rdlecler1 7y ago
  Since this comment was down voted, this is a legitimate hypothesis..... https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/65342-chronic-stress-cancer.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/65342-c...
ActorNightly 7y ago
Not really surprising tbh. Military vehicles and generators run on diesel, the fumes of which has known links to cancer, especially without any emission controls. Lead in ammunition probably contributes somewhat. Tungsten in training ammo has links to cancer. Stress and lack of proper nutrition probably doesn't help.
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  I get most of those but I am confused by lack of proper nutrition? That is a new one to me. Sure it is calorie dense and processed but I thought they had all of the vitamins - although infamously insufficient fiber. Also I didn't know training ammo used it - I thought it was mostly used just as an armor piercing metal.
  - pazimzadeh 7y ago
    Well there you go: Dietary fiber intake and risk of colorectal cancer and incident and recurrent adenoma in the Prostate, Lung, Colorectal, and Ovarian Cancer Screening Trial https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4588743/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4588743/
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  Tungsten is not used in training ammo because there is no need of high penetration; it is used in live ammo.
  - madengr 7y ago
    It’s used in frangible bullets. If you are in a shoot house, safer to use frangible bullets, but probably not for the dust. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frangible_bullet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frangible_bullet
- Barrin92 7y ago
  there's also waste burn pits which have been investigated in particular in relation to pulmonary diseases, but it wouldn't surprise me if it exposes people to carcinogens.
m0zg 7y ago
Address the root cause: don't start any more of these idiotic, unnecessary wars.
mad_tortoise 7y ago
Maybe if they hadn't been killing women and children with depleted uranium then maybe, just maybe, they wouldn't be getting cancer today.
- ainiriand 7y ago
  It is more complex than that. I think that this simplification is hiding a lot of hatred, not really helpful.

130 points by spking 7y ago

I'm sure the thousands upon thousands of depleted uranium rounds they fired over those years had nothing to with it at all.

rwcarlsen 7y ago
The radiological hazard of depleted U is generally considered to by far eclipsed by its chemical toxicity. I just want people to understand that any carcinogenic affects depleted U exposure may have are far more likely to be caused by its general chemical/heavy-metal toxicity. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium#Radiological_hazards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium#Radiological_...
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  How do we know that both effects can't cause damage? Say you survive exposure to chemical poisoning, later in life you may experience cancer.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    We've got a pretty good idea of what cancer rates are for various levels and types of radiation. Toxic chemicals can cause cancer themselves - poisoning isn't the only option there. Coal tar, for example, has no (or minimal) radioactivity, but is still carcinogenic.
    - adrianN 7y ago
      We actually have a rather poor understanding of long term effects of radiation. We have decent models for amounts of radiation that kill you over weeks, but long term low dose exposure is poorly understood.
  - XorNot 7y ago
    Heavy metal toxicity is basically the same as radiation exposure. It's extremely hard to purge the body of heavy metals after you're exposed, and it's one of the reasons plutonium is as dangerous as it is - because it gets incorporated into your bones. It would be surprisingly safe if it just passed right through you (hence the reason it can be safely handled). You don't just "get over" heavy metal poisoning. It has long term effects exactly like radiation, and is more insidious because you can't just wave a geiger counter around to find it.
- grawprog 7y ago
  https://www.globalresearch.ca/depleted-uranium-weapons-dead-babies-in-iraq-and-afghanistan-are-no-joke/15744 https://www.globalresearch.ca/depleted-uranium-weapons-dead-...

jalgos_eminator 7y ago

I'm not sure about the increase since 2000 (could be better detection methods), but the military is known to use a bunch of toxic chemicals. On the motorcycle forums I frequent I have heard more than a few times about how "The stuff we had when I was in the Army/Navy/AF would have cleaned this up in seconds." And they were only talking about the degreasers and lubricants, not the munitions or other chemicals that were hanging around the base. Read about Agent Orange if you want to be pissed off for the rest of the day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#U.S._veterans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#U.S._veterans

dv_dt 7y ago
Maybe they were referring to this. Great solvent, not so great for human health. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethylene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethylene
- madengr 7y ago
  They used to use this shit at my employer, back in the 80’s, for cleaning circuit boards. Forbid the use of gloves due to electro static discharge. People often complained it would burn their hands. At least they now use d-limonene, which is a food addictive derived from orange skin oil.
- tyingq 7y ago
  Can confirm this was used by enlisted electronic techs in the USAF in the 1980's. Similar for also questionable, but less lethal organic solvents like MEK. Gloves were specifically forbidden, and breathing gear wasn't present. I was young and didn't know better. Got several govt letters later asking me to opt out of lawsuits in exchange for free VA services.
scruple 7y ago
I could write a novel about this. My father was exposed to and handled Agent Orange in Vietnam. An uncle, as well. My uncle passed in 2007, riddled with cancers, fighting the VA every step of the way. That man served nearly 35 years before retiring. Their generation coined the phrase "Delay, deny, and hope that we die." due to their experiences with the VA. I decided not to be a helpless by-stander when it was my fathers time to contend with the VA. I took nearly 3 years off of my life and moved back home to help him. He was eventually able to successfully obtain a disability rating and was able to get prior/existing health issues linked to his exposure, which secured disability back pay to the 90s. All of this, his experience and the back pay, specifically, is something of an outlier, as we understand it. As we understand it, most folks don't have the resources to navigate the system successfully. It wasn't a massive financial windfall, but it meant that my parents future was financially secure (their finances were in ruins by the mid-00s) and once he was mobile again, with his health issues under control and with an effective management plan in place, I was able to get back on with my own life. There are also inter-generational effects with Agent Orange, but they're not very well understood (to my knowledge). That frightens me today, especially now that I've had my own children. There's a whole other dynamic there, too, in that I also served, and that I've been exposed to burn pits and a lot of diesel fumes and high RF environments and some solvents and etc... I feel like it's an inevitability in my own life's story that I'll eventually have to contend with the VA, as well.

rdlecler1 7y ago

Could this not be stress related?

rdlecler1 7y ago
Since this comment was down voted, this is a legitimate hypothesis..... https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/65342-chronic-stress-cancer.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/65342-c...

ActorNightly 7y ago

Not really surprising tbh. Military vehicles and generators run on diesel, the fumes of which has known links to cancer, especially without any emission controls. Lead in ammunition probably contributes somewhat. Tungsten in training ammo has links to cancer. Stress and lack of proper nutrition probably doesn't help.

Nasrudith 7y ago
I get most of those but I am confused by lack of proper nutrition? That is a new one to me. Sure it is calorie dense and processed but I thought they had all of the vitamins - although infamously insufficient fiber. Also I didn't know training ammo used it - I thought it was mostly used just as an armor piercing metal.
- pazimzadeh 7y ago
  Well there you go: Dietary fiber intake and risk of colorectal cancer and incident and recurrent adenoma in the Prostate, Lung, Colorectal, and Ovarian Cancer Screening Trial https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4588743/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4588743/
AdrianB1 7y ago
Tungsten is not used in training ammo because there is no need of high penetration; it is used in live ammo.
- madengr 7y ago
  It’s used in frangible bullets. If you are in a shoot house, safer to use frangible bullets, but probably not for the dust. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frangible_bullet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frangible_bullet
Barrin92 7y ago
there's also waste burn pits which have been investigated in particular in relation to pulmonary diseases, but it wouldn't surprise me if it exposes people to carcinogens.

m0zg 7y ago

Address the root cause: don't start any more of these idiotic, unnecessary wars.

mad_tortoise 7y ago

Maybe if they hadn't been killing women and children with depleted uranium then maybe, just maybe, they wouldn't be getting cancer today.

ainiriand 7y ago
It is more complex than that. I think that this simplification is hiding a lot of hatred, not really helpful.