12 ms·

> killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility Ken White (famous-ish lawyer and notable internet personality) puts it this

• snagglegaggle 7y ago
  > The prison where Epstein died was understaffed, and the guards tasked with watching him had no training on suicide watches. This could have been intentional, fyi.
  • nkrisc 7y ago
    I would wager that those same conditions were true long before Epstein ever set foot in there as well.
    • snagglegaggle 7y ago
      Apparently as Epstein arrived or shortly before his death the guards were rotated and two with very little suicide watch experience were present. One was also caught sleeping?
      • ssully 7y ago
        Is a guard sleeping on duty during a night shift surprising to you? As 542458 said, the level of competency that people assume is hilarious. Prison staff are overworked, underpaid, and have miserable jobs.
        • belltaco 7y ago
          It was two guards that both fell asleep. Okay that might be coincidence. What about the two cameras that failed at the same time? They should publish failure rates of cameras at that facility. When was the last time two sets of electronics failed at the exact same time randomly? If there was a voltage spike or something that killed them both how come it didn't affect anything else at the facility? Maybe they were EMP'ed or something? Okay that sounds fantastical, but I hope they do answer questions. There is likely an innocent explanation to all this, but there should be a thorough investigation.
          • jjeaff 7y ago
            Do you think these low tech security cameras are hooked up to Pager Duty or something so their crack team of IT pros staffed 24x7 can jump into action and fix them? They were probably broken for years.
            • not2personal 7y ago
              Best case is that they are negligent as opposed to corrupt. Either way shouldn't everyone involved be on the way to jail?
            • booboolayla 7y ago
              Camera feeds are looked at hourly as a SOP in prisons. What a ridiculous attempt to "prove" no wrongdoing.
            • TheOperator 7y ago
              24x7 no but 9-5 staff fixing broken cameras in a matter of weeks is probably more typical. Especially considering how many cameras are in this one location and how straightforward it is to keep track of if any cells don't have working cameras. I'm not saying it's a movie where the moment a camera goes down a 250lb Russian goon comes down and investigates. However cameras not working for years? In the fucking suicide watch cell? You honestly think that's realistic? Honestly those would probably get replaced faster than most cameras... Maybe there's a few cameras people just forgot were broken and get forgotten about for years but it wouldn't be a typical case if the IT and maintenance team was even half-competent.
      • throwaway743 7y ago
        Also the cameras just so happened to not have been recording at the time of the incident... doesn't seem coincidental considering his profile and potential to bring down some big name elites
        • shadowgovt 7y ago
          This is the problem with conspiracy theories... Avoidable accidents and conspiracy theories have the same fact pattern, which is an overlap of failure modes that should have been preventable but weren't prevented. Was the Titanic disaster a tragic accident borne of negligence... or a conspiracy to assassinate John Jacob Astor and make it look like an accident? A lot had to go wrong to make an unsinkable ship sink. Who paid off the watchmen that evening? Why was the captain going so fast? And did one of Astor's rivals gain a contract to sell the steel that... etc., etc. Occam's razor is important to keep handy, and Occam's razor here should be factoring in that American prisons are designed-by-committee-and-cruelty shit that have needed a massive overhaul for decades.
          • belltaco 7y ago
            Good post. I hope they do release the statistics of how often cameras fail at that facility. Two cameras failing in the same time widow feels very unlikely to me unless they're using some really bad ones, which won't surprise me. Would still like to know how that happened.
            • jjeaff 7y ago
              Sure, two cameras failing at the same time right before he incident seems very suspicious. But is that the case? Seems more likely both cameras were broken and had been for a long time and were never fixed. How many other cameras in the facility were broken? If cameras are broken, how would you ever learn that they are broken? Perhaps it would require an important event like a suicide to occur so that you would need to review the tapes and discover the broken cameras.
              • 7y ago
      • nkrisc 7y ago
        How often do guards fall asleep on duty? How many guards have any reasonable amount of suicide watch experience? These don't sound like anomalies.
    • anigbrowl 7y ago
      So why would you put him there? Continual focus on the environment takes the attention of the exceptionally unusual identity of the prisoner.
      • lazyasciiart 7y ago
        Because that's where pre-trial prisoners are held. edit: or he could have gone to the Brooklyn facility, which has the same problems.
• octopoc 7y ago
  > Epstein had also been taken off suicide watch nine days earlier. That's a big reason why this is so suspicious.
  • 542458 7y ago
    It's actually fairly normal to not keep people on suicide watch for very long. Full-blown suicide watch is expensive, but furthermore can stress a patient to the point of actually encouraging suicide. Being unable to sleep because your cell lights are kept on 24/7 and you're constantly getting checked on, the humiliation of having to wear a suicide smock, not having sheets on your bed, etc. You can argue that this is a crappy system, and I'd agree - but it is the dominant system in US prisons.
    • loceng 7y ago
      I understand your point, however I want to rhetorically ask: expensive relative to what? What's a life worth? What's it worth to keep someone alive where there's very high probability that they alone could be linchpin to bring down a network of bad actors?
      • 542458 7y ago
        > expensive relative to what? What's a life worth? I absolutely agree - it was stupid and shortsighted to take him off of suicide watch, and better suicide watch programs are needed in general. My point is more that nothing that much out of the ordinary for American jails happened here. Things happen in US jails every day that, to most people, would seem insane - incompetence and indifference to life are the norm. See my comment above - US jails are run on shoestring budgets with no accountability. People die in jail all the time for causes that were trivially preventable.
        • lostlogin 7y ago
          >it was stupid and shortsighted to take him off of suicide watch Or was it clever, manipulative and a powerful demonstration of knowledge on how events would pan out?
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• shadowgovt 7y ago
  Yep. The hard conspiracy theory - that some rich agent with something to lose took determined action to subvert the prison's protections and assassinate him - doesn't hold water for me. I am, however, willing to entertain the softer conspiracy theory - that people in prison (prisoners and staff) hate pedophiles and people who enable pedophilia, and the guy was, perhaps, given more opportunity than average to "fix his own problem" by a staff that wasn't going to shed a tear over a dead pedo.
  • apetresc 7y ago
    Maybe in some more run-of-the-mill cases, sure. But even the dimmest staff member must have been well aware that this particular pedophile was on the verge of testifying against an entire network of other pedophiles. If you hate pedophiles so much you're willing to risk your life/career just to let one of them commit suicide, surely you also hate them enough to wait just a little bit longer to prevent a bunch more of them from getting away with it.
    • im3w1l 7y ago
      Assuming they are rational. But it's evident to me that in a lot of cases pedophilia flips a switch in peoples brains and rage completely crowds out reason.
    • shadowgovt 7y ago
      Unless you have no reason to believe the testimony will matter.
      • tim58 7y ago
        It would tarnish reputations at the minimum. Legacy matters to the ultra rich.
        • kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
          Epstein maintained a nice lifestyle with a tarnished reputation.
• raxxorrax 7y ago
  The two broken cameras must have been incompetent as well then. Not suggesting a conspiracy, but I wouldn't call it that anyway. Maybe it was just a crime.
  • tootie 7y ago
    From what I've read, the two broken cameras story is just that "two of the many cameras in the area" were broken. At least one camera was actively recording the area outside his cell and they have the footage and it doesn't show anything interesting.
    • dnate 7y ago
      any sources on that?
      • adamredwoods 7y ago
        http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/jeffrey-epstein-dies-by-suicide-report.html http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/jeffrey-epstein-dies-...
        • AndrewBissell 7y ago
          All I see is this: "The Washington Post reported that 'at least one camera in the hallway outside the cell where authorities say registered sex offender Jeffrey Epstein hanged himself earlier this month had footage that is unusable' and that it is 'unclear whether the flaw in the taping affected a limited duration of the footage or whether it was a chronic problem in the beleaguered Manhattan facility.' "
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    • emsy 7y ago
      Yeah but faking footage of nobody entering the cell is waaaay easier than faking footage of a suicide.
• jdoliner 7y ago
  The jail that Epstein died in has had one other suicide in the past 40 years. They haven't actually lost someone to suicide 21 years, despite several attempts. They're not incompetent at all at preventing their inmates from committing suicide. So no, the statement that suicide is made practically impossible there isn't based on wrong assumptions, it's very well supported by statistics. Source: https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides
  • Matticus_Rex 7y ago
    Ehhh, sample size and base rate issues make me question "very well supported by statistics," but it's certainly an argument to the contrary.
    • robocat 7y ago
      "sample size and base rate issues" are only an argument to the contrary if you know the values - otherwise you are just muddying the issue.
      • Matticus_Rex 7y ago
        I didn't say that was the argument to the contrary.
  • topkai22 7y ago
    "1 suicide and 3 attempted suicides"- that's actually both an insanely low attempt rate and an insanely high completion rate/attempt.
    • romwell 7y ago
      That means that most people didn't even figure out how to attempt one, because the means were taken away. You should compare with suicides/suicide attempt rates in general population (or general prison population) to make this statement.
• messick 7y ago
  Yeah the shorter version of Ken "Popehat" White's thoughts are: middle class white people have no fucking idea how shitty the justice system is. And it's true, based on the replies to this post. No one who says Epstein's suicide was a "practical impossibility" has been anywhere near the justice system. They definitely don't know anyone who has been on the prisoner side of it.
  • slimed 7y ago
    You're acting like Epstein was just another prisoner. People who know a thing or two about the justice system will explain to you how differently high profile prisoners like Epstein are treated. But what could I, a middle class white person, know about the subject? Are you aware that some of us are former prisoners as well?
    • lazyasciiart 7y ago
      Convicted terrorists have said that Gitmo and warzones are better than this place. It's also very used to "high profile" prisoners, like El Chapo and accused terrorists picked up in Somalia and transferred back here.
      • slimed 7y ago
        You're right. They are used to it. They're also used to preventing suicides. There has only been one other successful suicide in that facility in the four decades it has existed. Why now? Coincidence?
        • lazyasciiart 7y ago
          Because he is the 20th prisoner in federal custody to commit suicide in a year? Because people routinely kill themselves even in supermax jails? Because 4-5 people attempt suicide in that prison every year and it'd be even more surprising if they were perfect at preventing it? Because they weren't allowed to hire new staff since Sessions froze hiring in 2017, until April, and their staffing levels went well down over that time? Here's the story of a death, not suicide, in an equivalent facility in Chicago - Solebo. He wasn't taking his meds, and nobody knew because the blood samples they'd taken from him were contaminated. Coincidence? And although a judge had ordered twice, six months apart, that he be transferred for proper medical examinations, he wasn't. Coincidence? And every staff member with a medical license was on leave or away the day he was found dead. Coincidence? Does the federal DoC just actually fail that much in that many ways? Yes. All the time.
• remarkEon 7y ago
  While I get what you’re trying to say ... the incompetence also makes them especially susceptible to corruption and nefarious influence. So, while accidents happen at a higher rate with incompetent staff ... so do “accidents”.
• logfromblammo 7y ago
  Ken White == Popehat.
• KevinEldon 7y ago
  The pathologist from the article claims "Epstein suffered multiple fractures in his neck that are more consistent with strangulation than suicide by hanging". This is a forensic claim first, but one that also raises questions about the quality of the system. Mr. White's perspective is interesting, but doesn't speak to the forensics. Mr. White might raise questions about the argument "Epstein couldn't have committed suicide because of the system", but by highlighting the incompetence in the system he lends plausibility to the idea that someone could gain access to Epstein in order to murder him.
  • shadowgovt 7y ago
    The pathologist from the article, it is important to remember, contradicts the NY ME's report, and has been hired by Epstein's family, who have a wrongful death suit brewing. He's hardly an unbiased source, and unlike the NY ME, he's retired and (while he has a reputation to protect as a human being who cares about such things) he has no career to protect by not screwing up the details on this one.
    • magduf 7y ago
      >he has no career to protect by not screwing up the details on this one. Sure he does: he has a career as an expert witness apparently.
    • KevinEldon 7y ago
      Bias, reputation, and motive are irrelevant to the claim that "Epstein suffered multiple fractures in his neck that are more consistent with strangulation than suicide by hanging". 1) Did Epstein suffer these fractures? 2) Does established forensic science support that these fractures are more consistent with strangulation? 3) How much more? 4) Is there other evidence that supports the conclusion this was suicide? The pathologists uses facts and established scientific knowledge to draw a conclusion. Legitimate responses to that conclusion should be factual and scientific. Counter arguments along the lines of the "middle class people don't understand the justice system" or "this guy was paid", however true they may be, don't have any bearing on the neck fractures and if those fractures are consistent with strangulation or suicide.
• smsm42 7y ago
  It is true that prisons are not exactly healthy environments, prison guards are not exactly loving companions, obsessed with inmate's wellbeing, and that many of them are careless and/or incompetent. And sometimes deliberately cruel and criminal. However, the case of Epstein is one of the major scandals of the century. He's not a random stoner police picked up. He's somebody whose name has been on the front pages of every newspaper for months. In this condition, either everybody in the prison system are blithering idiots, or somebody took care that Epstein would be surrounded by specific idiots at specific time. And then plausibly denied all involvement - we have idiots, what can you do. If you start counting how many times government officials used this excuse - we're just idiots, you know, can't blame us - to successfully escape responsibility for corruption, fraud and blatant criminal behavior. True, murder requires special hutzpah - but that also doesn't happen every day. Now it happened.