4 ms·

I must have missed something. What are those two legal referendums that you speak of? Also, wouldn't the reasons for independence be up to the citizens? You say

I must have missed something. What are those two legal referendums that you speak of? Also, wouldn't the reasons for independence be up to the citizens? You say there have none...

Arkhaine_kupo 7y ago
I think he means no historically justifiable reasons. Most countries demanding self determination due so in religious, political or historical basis. Catalan identitarianism is very very recent. Culturally they are as Spanish as any other region (spain is relatively federal more so than a single monolithic culture like France). Some of the main reasons for claimed independence are "Spain steals from us". Now this is insulting to many Spaniards as the implication is that they pay taxes so everyone else can be lazy and fuck about. Essentially its based on them wanting a similar tax treaty to the basque country, another rich area who pays much less in tax than other areas with similar average salaries. In other words, rich not wanting to pay their fair share. Slogans like that have alienated the discussion massively in Spain. Then they elected a local government that made their own campaign about leaving Spain. So kinda like the Brexit party in the UK they had to deliver, so they took crazy drastic measures, government escalated the problem massively and now we are here in no mans land.
- tbatchelli 7y ago
  I think you might not know much about Spanish history. The Catalan movement has existed for at least over a century. We had revolts quashed, we had our language forbidden, we had forced economic depression, presidents executed, all since early 19th century. When do we get your approval, at 150 years? 200?
  - Arkhaine_kupo 7y ago
    the catalan movement from 100 years ago and now is not the same. The revolutions of the late 19th century where far left, considering the absolute barbaric infighting between anarchists, communists and republicans in BCN which heavily hindered the efforts against rising fascism. The Catalan movement now is not comunist and anarchist, is heavily favoured by Catalan elites. The Puyol family being a clear example. The same rancid spanish right wing bullshit with some catalan paint cover. Puigdemont is Rajoy with a senyera
    - tbatchelli 7y ago
      Just saying, you said this is new therefore invalid. Now you talk about it being different therefore invalid. I think you are a holding a political position but trying to mask it with random requests for legitimacy. Back to your original statement, when do you give legitimacy to a movement?
      - Arkhaine_kupo 7y ago
        On the basis of cultural, religious or ethnic differences. Palestine, taiwan, kurdistan, the division of middle east in ethnic groups instead of ww1 borders, The divisons we have seen in Congo in the last 30 years, even the indigenous people of Peru probably with their recent protests againt Lenin Moreno all have claims to needing due to incapability to form an understanding with the central goverment to be allowed to have their own country. Catalunya has no historical, political, religious or ethnic divide with Spain. Literally 0. Their tripartit is gonna be mimic now by Cuidadanos, PP and PSOE. Their elites are just as corrupts as madrid. They are as religious as anywhere else in Spain. Catalunya has never been a historical region unless you concede Aragorns crown to be fundamentally Catalan but even then it is ages ago. Basque country has a much better claim to indepdence in my opinion, and I still do not think they deserve the right of self determination. Not only in part because a great claim of their ethnic difference is still based in anti Spanish racism.
hummel 7y ago
Check referendum on the dates: 9N-2014, 25N-2015, and many others Wikipedia have an extense article about the times they go to vote freely: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proceso_soberanista_de_Catalu%C3%B1a_de_2012-2019 https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proceso_soberanista_de_Catalu%...
- tbatchelli 7y ago
  Those weren't referendums. The Spanish law doesn't allow independence referendums, that's why the Spanish courts handed a 100 year sentence on the Catalan politicians that allowed one. They were consultations with no tied outcomes. Again, the Spanish law today does not allow a referendum about independence. It could if the Spanish government allowed it, but they won't, after many years of asking. A large majority a catalans supports having a referendum, many wanting to vote against independence. The 9N consultation came out with what, 80% support for independence?
  - ErneX 7y ago
    You have to keep in mind that those referendums were basically pro-independence acts, not an official vote by any measure. So it's obvious the results are wins of the pro-independence side.
    - tbatchelli 7y ago
      Absolutely. Those are not referendums, and the results are not more valid than a survey, if not worse. I was responding to the OP's statement: > We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal referendums, where the result has been a refusal of the Catalan people to leave Spain or Independence.

I must have missed something. What are those two legal referendums that you speak of? Also, wouldn't the reasons for independence be up to the citizens? You say there have none...

Arkhaine_kupo 7y ago

I think he means no historically justifiable reasons. Most countries demanding self determination due so in religious, political or historical basis. Catalan identitarianism is very very recent. Culturally they are as Spanish as any other region (spain is relatively federal more so than a single monolithic culture like France). Some of the main reasons for claimed independence are "Spain steals from us". Now this is insulting to many Spaniards as the implication is that they pay taxes so everyone else can be lazy and fuck about. Essentially its based on them wanting a similar tax treaty to the basque country, another rich area who pays much less in tax than other areas with similar average salaries. In other words, rich not wanting to pay their fair share. Slogans like that have alienated the discussion massively in Spain. Then they elected a local government that made their own campaign about leaving Spain. So kinda like the Brexit party in the UK they had to deliver, so they took crazy drastic measures, government escalated the problem massively and now we are here in no mans land.

tbatchelli 7y ago
I think you might not know much about Spanish history. The Catalan movement has existed for at least over a century. We had revolts quashed, we had our language forbidden, we had forced economic depression, presidents executed, all since early 19th century. When do we get your approval, at 150 years? 200?
- Arkhaine_kupo 7y ago
  the catalan movement from 100 years ago and now is not the same. The revolutions of the late 19th century where far left, considering the absolute barbaric infighting between anarchists, communists and republicans in BCN which heavily hindered the efforts against rising fascism. The Catalan movement now is not comunist and anarchist, is heavily favoured by Catalan elites. The Puyol family being a clear example. The same rancid spanish right wing bullshit with some catalan paint cover. Puigdemont is Rajoy with a senyera
  - tbatchelli 7y ago
    Just saying, you said this is new therefore invalid. Now you talk about it being different therefore invalid. I think you are a holding a political position but trying to mask it with random requests for legitimacy. Back to your original statement, when do you give legitimacy to a movement?
    - Arkhaine_kupo 7y ago
      On the basis of cultural, religious or ethnic differences. Palestine, taiwan, kurdistan, the division of middle east in ethnic groups instead of ww1 borders, The divisons we have seen in Congo in the last 30 years, even the indigenous people of Peru probably with their recent protests againt Lenin Moreno all have claims to needing due to incapability to form an understanding with the central goverment to be allowed to have their own country. Catalunya has no historical, political, religious or ethnic divide with Spain. Literally 0. Their tripartit is gonna be mimic now by Cuidadanos, PP and PSOE. Their elites are just as corrupts as madrid. They are as religious as anywhere else in Spain. Catalunya has never been a historical region unless you concede Aragorns crown to be fundamentally Catalan but even then it is ages ago. Basque country has a much better claim to indepdence in my opinion, and I still do not think they deserve the right of self determination. Not only in part because a great claim of their ethnic difference is still based in anti Spanish racism.

hummel 7y ago

Check referendum on the dates: 9N-2014, 25N-2015, and many others Wikipedia have an extense article about the times they go to vote freely: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proceso_soberanista_de_Catalu%C3%B1a_de_2012-2019 https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proceso_soberanista_de_Catalu%...

tbatchelli 7y ago
Those weren't referendums. The Spanish law doesn't allow independence referendums, that's why the Spanish courts handed a 100 year sentence on the Catalan politicians that allowed one. They were consultations with no tied outcomes. Again, the Spanish law today does not allow a referendum about independence. It could if the Spanish government allowed it, but they won't, after many years of asking. A large majority a catalans supports having a referendum, many wanting to vote against independence. The 9N consultation came out with what, 80% support for independence?
- ErneX 7y ago
  You have to keep in mind that those referendums were basically pro-independence acts, not an official vote by any measure. So it's obvious the results are wins of the pro-independence side.
  - tbatchelli 7y ago
    Absolutely. Those are not referendums, and the results are not more valid than a survey, if not worse. I was responding to the OP's statement: > We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal referendums, where the result has been a refusal of the Catalan people to leave Spain or Independence.