6 ms·

There is no Catalonia issue and you have plenty of freedom to express yourself wherever you want. We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal ref

by hummel 7y ago

There is no Catalonia issue and you have plenty of freedom to express yourself wherever you want. We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal referendums, where the result has been a refusal of the Catalan people to leave Spain or Independence. Apart from not having any historical reason for independence, it is very funny how you talk about a lack of freedom of expression in a country that has suffered 40 years of dictatorship and where people like my own grandfather were shot for expressing their ideas. Take a walk through Qatar, Chechnya, Hong Kong, China, North Korea ...etc and value your freedom to express yourself on the Internet, your grandparents surely died for it. Respect the dead, read a little about the history of Spain and do not make the mistakes of generalizing.

braythwayt 7y ago
"There is no Catalonia issue" I beg your pardon, are you gaslighting Hacker News? I saw videos of protests. Were those fake? I have friends from Catalonia who tell me there is an issue. Are they lying to me? Whether you agree that Catalonia should leave Spain or not, whether you agree that Spain should jail the leaders of a movement to leave Spain or not, there clearly is an issue. There clearly is some dissent, some controversy, something going on. As for referendums... Seems to me there was a referendum a while back, and the vote was declared illegal. I saw video of law enforcement preventing people from voting. Was that fake? if not, do you count it amongst your evidence of the people of Catalonia refusing to leave Spain?
- hummel 7y ago
  The protests were violent riots not supported by any political party or entity, Catalan or not. As you can see violence stopped like one week ago, and everything back to normal. For example, you can see here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkgW7Bab1J8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkgW7Bab1J8) violence blocked the university, so other Catalan students cant go to classes that day. Catalan society is not related to the protest. It is like seeing an Antifa video from US and think there is a political revolution. Your friends probably didn't tell you, that ordinary justice condemns the political leaders, not because organizing a referendum, but for public funds misappropriation, corruption and refuse to follow the law. Something reasonable, since on other countries and 99% of history when you revolt, either you win or you will get your head off. The trial was public, documented and fair. Probably an exemplary for the future on how to deal when a corrupt government wants to take over. You also need to go back a few years and read what happened on the previous referendum, that they were legal because they were organized following the rules and because this is a democracy. If you don't like the rules you have a political parliament and elections to change the laws. Thats fine.
  - braythwayt 7y ago
    None of that suggests that there is no issue. I could say almost all the same things about whether the people of Québec want to leave Canada or not, and whether the tactics of those who want to leave are legitimate or not. But I would never say there is no separation issue in Québec.
    - vkou 7y ago
      There isn't a separation issue in Quebec... At this moment. The BQ has given up on secession, and instead doubled-down on islamophobia, to great success at the polls.
  - calgoo 7y ago
    As someone living in Barcelona I can tell you that the majority of violence was caused by the Police starting to go after protestors, police provoking protestors with Spanish flags, playing the Spanish national anthem. Its was caused be a few people who always cause violence, does not matter if its a soccer game or a peaceful protest. It was caused by the central government spending years changing the law, to the point where its illegal to protest the government, unless they authorize it. Its caused by police stopping and searching people daily on the streets, confiscating anything that can hide your face, and Catalan flags. There are even cases where Spanish police officers sent to catalunya from other parts of spain have been identified with swastika tattoos. There is a HUGE issue, where people on both sides have been abusing the system for their own gains. Both political sides know that as long as they can keep the people fighting and "hating" each other, they can continue with the corruption that exists here.
tbatchelli 7y ago
I must have missed something. What are those two legal referendums that you speak of? Also, wouldn't the reasons for independence be up to the citizens? You say there have none...
- Arkhaine_kupo 7y ago
  I think he means no historically justifiable reasons. Most countries demanding self determination due so in religious, political or historical basis. Catalan identitarianism is very very recent. Culturally they are as Spanish as any other region (spain is relatively federal more so than a single monolithic culture like France). Some of the main reasons for claimed independence are "Spain steals from us". Now this is insulting to many Spaniards as the implication is that they pay taxes so everyone else can be lazy and fuck about. Essentially its based on them wanting a similar tax treaty to the basque country, another rich area who pays much less in tax than other areas with similar average salaries. In other words, rich not wanting to pay their fair share. Slogans like that have alienated the discussion massively in Spain. Then they elected a local government that made their own campaign about leaving Spain. So kinda like the Brexit party in the UK they had to deliver, so they took crazy drastic measures, government escalated the problem massively and now we are here in no mans land.
  - tbatchelli 7y ago
    I think you might not know much about Spanish history. The Catalan movement has existed for at least over a century. We had revolts quashed, we had our language forbidden, we had forced economic depression, presidents executed, all since early 19th century. When do we get your approval, at 150 years? 200?
    - Arkhaine_kupo 7y ago
      the catalan movement from 100 years ago and now is not the same. The revolutions of the late 19th century where far left, considering the absolute barbaric infighting between anarchists, communists and republicans in BCN which heavily hindered the efforts against rising fascism. The Catalan movement now is not comunist and anarchist, is heavily favoured by Catalan elites. The Puyol family being a clear example. The same rancid spanish right wing bullshit with some catalan paint cover. Puigdemont is Rajoy with a senyera
xiker 7y ago
> We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal referendums, where the result has been a refusal of the Catalan people to leave Spain or Independence That's not true, I think you are confusing Catalonia with Scotland. Preciselly one of the main issues is that a part o Catalonian society (I would say a big one, from both sides, independentist and non independentists) wants a referndum, but Spain refuses to do it.
- hummel 7y ago
  Catalonia society already voted many times, and the results were very clear, with no support to independence. You can translate from here all the times they did: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proceso_soberanista_de_Catalu%C3%B1a_de_2012-2019 https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proceso_soberanista_de_Catalu%...
  - xiker 7y ago
    Those weren't "referendums", those where "enquirys" which is not the same. The result of an "enquiry" has no legal obligations, for example, in the first enquiry, independentist won by far (81%), but there was no independence. It some way of knowing what people/society thinks about an issue. As I said in my previous comment, there haven`t been any referendums about independence in Spain (I live in Spain so I think I know about what I'm talking), basically because the spanish goverment doesn't want to, and on the other hand, the so called "rigth to choose or decide" with a referendum is one of the things Catalonians (and also Basks) want.
  - tassl 7y ago
    Wait, both referendums (November 9th and October 1st) had +80% independence support. I am not sure why you would use them to make the opposite point?

by hummel 7y ago

braythwayt 7y ago

"There is no Catalonia issue" I beg your pardon, are you gaslighting Hacker News? I saw videos of protests. Were those fake? I have friends from Catalonia who tell me there is an issue. Are they lying to me? Whether you agree that Catalonia should leave Spain or not, whether you agree that Spain should jail the leaders of a movement to leave Spain or not, there clearly is an issue. There clearly is some dissent, some controversy, something going on. As for referendums... Seems to me there was a referendum a while back, and the vote was declared illegal. I saw video of law enforcement preventing people from voting. Was that fake? if not, do you count it amongst your evidence of the people of Catalonia refusing to leave Spain?

hummel 7y ago
The protests were violent riots not supported by any political party or entity, Catalan or not. As you can see violence stopped like one week ago, and everything back to normal. For example, you can see here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkgW7Bab1J8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkgW7Bab1J8) violence blocked the university, so other Catalan students cant go to classes that day. Catalan society is not related to the protest. It is like seeing an Antifa video from US and think there is a political revolution. Your friends probably didn't tell you, that ordinary justice condemns the political leaders, not because organizing a referendum, but for public funds misappropriation, corruption and refuse to follow the law. Something reasonable, since on other countries and 99% of history when you revolt, either you win or you will get your head off. The trial was public, documented and fair. Probably an exemplary for the future on how to deal when a corrupt government wants to take over. You also need to go back a few years and read what happened on the previous referendum, that they were legal because they were organized following the rules and because this is a democracy. If you don't like the rules you have a political parliament and elections to change the laws. Thats fine.
- braythwayt 7y ago
  None of that suggests that there is no issue. I could say almost all the same things about whether the people of Québec want to leave Canada or not, and whether the tactics of those who want to leave are legitimate or not. But I would never say there is no separation issue in Québec.
  - vkou 7y ago
    There isn't a separation issue in Quebec... At this moment. The BQ has given up on secession, and instead doubled-down on islamophobia, to great success at the polls.
- calgoo 7y ago
  As someone living in Barcelona I can tell you that the majority of violence was caused by the Police starting to go after protestors, police provoking protestors with Spanish flags, playing the Spanish national anthem. Its was caused be a few people who always cause violence, does not matter if its a soccer game or a peaceful protest. It was caused by the central government spending years changing the law, to the point where its illegal to protest the government, unless they authorize it. Its caused by police stopping and searching people daily on the streets, confiscating anything that can hide your face, and Catalan flags. There are even cases where Spanish police officers sent to catalunya from other parts of spain have been identified with swastika tattoos. There is a HUGE issue, where people on both sides have been abusing the system for their own gains. Both political sides know that as long as they can keep the people fighting and "hating" each other, they can continue with the corruption that exists here.

tbatchelli 7y ago

I must have missed something. What are those two legal referendums that you speak of? Also, wouldn't the reasons for independence be up to the citizens? You say there have none...

Arkhaine_kupo 7y ago
I think he means no historically justifiable reasons. Most countries demanding self determination due so in religious, political or historical basis. Catalan identitarianism is very very recent. Culturally they are as Spanish as any other region (spain is relatively federal more so than a single monolithic culture like France). Some of the main reasons for claimed independence are "Spain steals from us". Now this is insulting to many Spaniards as the implication is that they pay taxes so everyone else can be lazy and fuck about. Essentially its based on them wanting a similar tax treaty to the basque country, another rich area who pays much less in tax than other areas with similar average salaries. In other words, rich not wanting to pay their fair share. Slogans like that have alienated the discussion massively in Spain. Then they elected a local government that made their own campaign about leaving Spain. So kinda like the Brexit party in the UK they had to deliver, so they took crazy drastic measures, government escalated the problem massively and now we are here in no mans land.
- tbatchelli 7y ago
  I think you might not know much about Spanish history. The Catalan movement has existed for at least over a century. We had revolts quashed, we had our language forbidden, we had forced economic depression, presidents executed, all since early 19th century. When do we get your approval, at 150 years? 200?
  - Arkhaine_kupo 7y ago
    the catalan movement from 100 years ago and now is not the same. The revolutions of the late 19th century where far left, considering the absolute barbaric infighting between anarchists, communists and republicans in BCN which heavily hindered the efforts against rising fascism. The Catalan movement now is not comunist and anarchist, is heavily favoured by Catalan elites. The Puyol family being a clear example. The same rancid spanish right wing bullshit with some catalan paint cover. Puigdemont is Rajoy with a senyera

xiker 7y ago

> We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal referendums, where the result has been a refusal of the Catalan people to leave Spain or Independence That's not true, I think you are confusing Catalonia with Scotland. Preciselly one of the main issues is that a part o Catalonian society (I would say a big one, from both sides, independentist and non independentists) wants a referndum, but Spain refuses to do it.

hummel 7y ago
Catalonia society already voted many times, and the results were very clear, with no support to independence. You can translate from here all the times they did: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proceso_soberanista_de_Catalu%C3%B1a_de_2012-2019 https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proceso_soberanista_de_Catalu%...
- xiker 7y ago
  Those weren't "referendums", those where "enquirys" which is not the same. The result of an "enquiry" has no legal obligations, for example, in the first enquiry, independentist won by far (81%), but there was no independence. It some way of knowing what people/society thinks about an issue. As I said in my previous comment, there haven`t been any referendums about independence in Spain (I live in Spain so I think I know about what I'm talking), basically because the spanish goverment doesn't want to, and on the other hand, the so called "rigth to choose or decide" with a referendum is one of the things Catalonians (and also Basks) want.
- tassl 7y ago
  Wait, both referendums (November 9th and October 1st) had +80% independence support. I am not sure why you would use them to make the opposite point?