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Github will not be shutdown over any action they do or do not take in Spain. The worst that can happen to Github is that they are prevented from doing business

by mindB 7y ago

Github will not be shutdown over any action they do or do not take in Spain. The worst that can happen to Github is that they are prevented from doing business in Spain. Given how strongly Spain has come down against freedom of expression on the Catalonia issue, Github is making it very clear by taking this action that freedom of expression is not one of their values. Let me repeat, Spain has come down hard enough against freedom of expression that I do not believe it is ethical for Github to continue operating in the country. I highly value freedom of expression, and it is especially important to me that a code-hosting and (like it or not) a social media website holds to that value as well, and fights to preserve that freedom on their platform. This will definitely affect whether I choose Github or Microsoft in the future.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
derp_dee_derp 7y ago
> This will definitely affect whether I choose Github or Microsoft in the future. I see you've linked your Github in your profile. Why not put your money where your mouth is and delete your Github account now?
- mindB 7y ago
  I'm weighing doing just that. The problem is that the primary language I use (Julia) has most packages heavily centralized on Github and even specifically designed their central package repository to be simpler to use if your package is hosted on Github. Migrating repositories I maintain to another service is a slam-dunk, but being unable to easily contribute to Julia packages hosted on Github would hamper not just my work but others who may have benefited from my contribution.
reallydontask 7y ago
> I highly value freedom of expression, and to me it is especially important to me that a code-hosting and (like it or not) a social media website holds to that value as well. This will definitely affect whether I choose Github or Microsoft in the future. Would you rather choose a company that doesn't comply with local laws? Most governments ( no doubt, yours too), want companies operating under their jurisdiction to obey their laws (Things get complicated on the web but the basic premise holds), to say nothing of the fact that freedom of speech is not absolute (not condoning or condemning the current action)
- typenil 7y ago
  Gotta point out that the comment pretty clearly indicated that GitHub should cease to operate in Spain. Not operating somewhere doesn’t violate local laws.
- crawfordcomeaux 7y ago
  I would love to see civil disobedience at a corporate level. That level of bravery is so rare and so necessary.
  - sneak 7y ago
    "Corporate level" doesn't exist when you're talking about things termed criminal. Criminal charges are levied at individuals, not companies, because companies cannot act-only people can. It doesn't end well for the people, sadly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio
- mindB 7y ago
  >Would you rather choose a company that doesn't comply with local laws? Absolutely. Companies and the individuals who make up companies should not comply with unethical laws just as people at large should not comply with unethical laws. Ethics stands above the law.
  - reallydontask 7y ago
    >Ethics stands above the law This is pretty naive Who decides what is ethical? I might think it's unethical to finance my government given its record of military adventures around the world. Does that mean that I'm off the hook on income tax?
    - mindB 7y ago
      >This is pretty naive I think you may be misunderstanding me. Ethics stands above the law in that if ethics and law conflict, a person ought to do the ethical thing rather than the legal thing. It does not mean that people who disobey the law should be off the hook so long as they were obeying their own personal code of ethics. If this view is naive, then I believe most all work in moral philosophy is naive. I don't think there are any major viewpoints that would elevate obedience to the law as being a concern higher than ethical behavior. Do you think that the entire field of business ethics is bunk and can be reduced to the single maxim, "Follow the local law"? Is the code of ethics by which I would be required to abide[1] if I became a professional engineer an unnecessary restriction? [1] https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics
swebs 7y ago
>Github is making it very clear by taking this action that freedom of expression is not one of their values. Github has made that very clear when they took down the parody feminist programming language C+=. There were no legal notices or government threats or anything. They simply did not like the message. https://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/12/14/1618239/github-takes-down-satirical-c-plus-equality-language https://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/12/14/1618239/github-take...
- mindB 7y ago
  I'll admit I get a bit more worked up about companies colluding with governments to suppress speech; the potential harm is much higher. If Github had themselves taken a stance that the contents of the censored repository were unethical and independently chosen to take it down, I'd have much less of a problem with them.
hummel 7y ago
There is no Catalonia issue and you have plenty of freedom to express yourself wherever you want. We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal referendums, where the result has been a refusal of the Catalan people to leave Spain or Independence. Apart from not having any historical reason for independence, it is very funny how you talk about a lack of freedom of expression in a country that has suffered 40 years of dictatorship and where people like my own grandfather were shot for expressing their ideas. Take a walk through Qatar, Chechnya, Hong Kong, China, North Korea ...etc and value your freedom to express yourself on the Internet, your grandparents surely died for it. Respect the dead, read a little about the history of Spain and do not make the mistakes of generalizing.
- braythwayt 7y ago
  "There is no Catalonia issue" I beg your pardon, are you gaslighting Hacker News? I saw videos of protests. Were those fake? I have friends from Catalonia who tell me there is an issue. Are they lying to me? Whether you agree that Catalonia should leave Spain or not, whether you agree that Spain should jail the leaders of a movement to leave Spain or not, there clearly is an issue. There clearly is some dissent, some controversy, something going on. As for referendums... Seems to me there was a referendum a while back, and the vote was declared illegal. I saw video of law enforcement preventing people from voting. Was that fake? if not, do you count it amongst your evidence of the people of Catalonia refusing to leave Spain?
  - hummel 7y ago
    The protests were violent riots not supported by any political party or entity, Catalan or not. As you can see violence stopped like one week ago, and everything back to normal. For example, you can see here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkgW7Bab1J8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkgW7Bab1J8) violence blocked the university, so other Catalan students cant go to classes that day. Catalan society is not related to the protest. It is like seeing an Antifa video from US and think there is a political revolution. Your friends probably didn't tell you, that ordinary justice condemns the political leaders, not because organizing a referendum, but for public funds misappropriation, corruption and refuse to follow the law. Something reasonable, since on other countries and 99% of history when you revolt, either you win or you will get your head off. The trial was public, documented and fair. Probably an exemplary for the future on how to deal when a corrupt government wants to take over. You also need to go back a few years and read what happened on the previous referendum, that they were legal because they were organized following the rules and because this is a democracy. If you don't like the rules you have a political parliament and elections to change the laws. Thats fine.
hummel 7y ago
Watching your Github profile I see you are from the US, time to get back to history classes and time to fight for the freedom of expression on your own country, which is ranked on 49 on Press Freedom Index 2019 https://rsf.org/en/ranking https://rsf.org/en/ranking next to Senegal and Romania.
- pojntfx 7y ago
  If someone will ever ask me what a "whataboutism" is, I will point it them to your comment right here.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
  Pretty meaningless index when American citizens are free to promote a separatist agenda and the higher ranked Spaniards can't.
  - gjulianm 7y ago
    Yes we can. There are independentists in parliament. The president of Catalonia is an independentist. Pro-independence demonstrations happen and there are no arrests just by going there (except in riots, but that's because the police force is way too uncontrolled, not because of a general freedom of expression issue). This takedown was to an app that was used to organize a blockage of a major airport. I do not agree with the takedown, but I do not think it's such a clear cut that it's 'freedom of expression'.
    - pjc50 7y ago
      The treatment of Carles Puigdemont and others is hardly consistent with free expression.
      - FullMetalBitch 7y ago
        Puigdemoont is free and has been free to say whatever he wants but embezzlment is a crime.
Unai 7y ago
What a tremendously uneducated comment. Freedom of expression has not being limited in Spain in any way or form, not at all. The apk was removed because a judge (not politics, not the police) confirmed that the app was used to organize violent manifestations. And GitHub had to legally comply with the warrant. No action is being taken to stop manifestations, only to stop the organization of violence. In case you want to also made the uneducated point that the violence is necessary, I want to remind you that the fact that people manifest doesn't automatically mean there exist oppression from the state, as in this case, there is none.
- manuelflara 7y ago
  > What a tremendously uneducated comment. Freedom of expression has not being limited in Spain in any way or form, not at all. What an ironic couple of sentences tied together... In Spain we have rappers who have been sentenced to jail time for having lyrics criticizing the King. If that isn't limiting freedom of expression, I don't know what is. Reference: https://www.elperiodico.com/es/ocio-y-cultura/20180221/valtonyc-letras-6640601 https://www.elperiodico.com/es/ocio-y-cultura/20180221/valto...
  - lentil_soup 7y ago
    I think he's talking about the Github takedown notice, not about Spain in general
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - tbatchelli 7y ago
      I believe the OP is talking about Spain in general when she/he writes "Freedom of expression has not being limited in Spain in any way or form, not at all.", wouldn't you agree?
- gerardvivancos 7y ago
  What’s the name of the judge?

by mindB 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

derp_dee_derp 7y ago

> This will definitely affect whether I choose Github or Microsoft in the future. I see you've linked your Github in your profile. Why not put your money where your mouth is and delete your Github account now?

mindB 7y ago
I'm weighing doing just that. The problem is that the primary language I use (Julia) has most packages heavily centralized on Github and even specifically designed their central package repository to be simpler to use if your package is hosted on Github. Migrating repositories I maintain to another service is a slam-dunk, but being unable to easily contribute to Julia packages hosted on Github would hamper not just my work but others who may have benefited from my contribution.

reallydontask 7y ago

> I highly value freedom of expression, and to me it is especially important to me that a code-hosting and (like it or not) a social media website holds to that value as well. This will definitely affect whether I choose Github or Microsoft in the future. Would you rather choose a company that doesn't comply with local laws? Most governments ( no doubt, yours too), want companies operating under their jurisdiction to obey their laws (Things get complicated on the web but the basic premise holds), to say nothing of the fact that freedom of speech is not absolute (not condoning or condemning the current action)

typenil 7y ago
Gotta point out that the comment pretty clearly indicated that GitHub should cease to operate in Spain. Not operating somewhere doesn’t violate local laws.
crawfordcomeaux 7y ago
I would love to see civil disobedience at a corporate level. That level of bravery is so rare and so necessary.
- sneak 7y ago
  "Corporate level" doesn't exist when you're talking about things termed criminal. Criminal charges are levied at individuals, not companies, because companies cannot act-only people can. It doesn't end well for the people, sadly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio
mindB 7y ago
>Would you rather choose a company that doesn't comply with local laws? Absolutely. Companies and the individuals who make up companies should not comply with unethical laws just as people at large should not comply with unethical laws. Ethics stands above the law.
- reallydontask 7y ago
  >Ethics stands above the law This is pretty naive Who decides what is ethical? I might think it's unethical to finance my government given its record of military adventures around the world. Does that mean that I'm off the hook on income tax?
  - mindB 7y ago
    >This is pretty naive I think you may be misunderstanding me. Ethics stands above the law in that if ethics and law conflict, a person ought to do the ethical thing rather than the legal thing. It does not mean that people who disobey the law should be off the hook so long as they were obeying their own personal code of ethics. If this view is naive, then I believe most all work in moral philosophy is naive. I don't think there are any major viewpoints that would elevate obedience to the law as being a concern higher than ethical behavior. Do you think that the entire field of business ethics is bunk and can be reduced to the single maxim, "Follow the local law"? Is the code of ethics by which I would be required to abide[1] if I became a professional engineer an unnecessary restriction? [1] https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics

swebs 7y ago

>Github is making it very clear by taking this action that freedom of expression is not one of their values. Github has made that very clear when they took down the parody feminist programming language C+=. There were no legal notices or government threats or anything. They simply did not like the message. https://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/12/14/1618239/github-takes-down-satirical-c-plus-equality-language https://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/12/14/1618239/github-take...

mindB 7y ago
I'll admit I get a bit more worked up about companies colluding with governments to suppress speech; the potential harm is much higher. If Github had themselves taken a stance that the contents of the censored repository were unethical and independently chosen to take it down, I'd have much less of a problem with them.

hummel 7y ago

There is no Catalonia issue and you have plenty of freedom to express yourself wherever you want. We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal referendums, where the result has been a refusal of the Catalan people to leave Spain or Independence. Apart from not having any historical reason for independence, it is very funny how you talk about a lack of freedom of expression in a country that has suffered 40 years of dictatorship and where people like my own grandfather were shot for expressing their ideas. Take a walk through Qatar, Chechnya, Hong Kong, China, North Korea ...etc and value your freedom to express yourself on the Internet, your grandparents surely died for it. Respect the dead, read a little about the history of Spain and do not make the mistakes of generalizing.

braythwayt 7y ago
"There is no Catalonia issue" I beg your pardon, are you gaslighting Hacker News? I saw videos of protests. Were those fake? I have friends from Catalonia who tell me there is an issue. Are they lying to me? Whether you agree that Catalonia should leave Spain or not, whether you agree that Spain should jail the leaders of a movement to leave Spain or not, there clearly is an issue. There clearly is some dissent, some controversy, something going on. As for referendums... Seems to me there was a referendum a while back, and the vote was declared illegal. I saw video of law enforcement preventing people from voting. Was that fake? if not, do you count it amongst your evidence of the people of Catalonia refusing to leave Spain?
- hummel 7y ago
  The protests were violent riots not supported by any political party or entity, Catalan or not. As you can see violence stopped like one week ago, and everything back to normal. For example, you can see here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkgW7Bab1J8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkgW7Bab1J8) violence blocked the university, so other Catalan students cant go to classes that day. Catalan society is not related to the protest. It is like seeing an Antifa video from US and think there is a political revolution. Your friends probably didn't tell you, that ordinary justice condemns the political leaders, not because organizing a referendum, but for public funds misappropriation, corruption and refuse to follow the law. Something reasonable, since on other countries and 99% of history when you revolt, either you win or you will get your head off. The trial was public, documented and fair. Probably an exemplary for the future on how to deal when a corrupt government wants to take over. You also need to go back a few years and read what happened on the previous referendum, that they were legal because they were organized following the rules and because this is a democracy. If you don't like the rules you have a political parliament and elections to change the laws. Thats fine.

hummel 7y ago

Watching your Github profile I see you are from the US, time to get back to history classes and time to fight for the freedom of expression on your own country, which is ranked on 49 on Press Freedom Index 2019 https://rsf.org/en/ranking https://rsf.org/en/ranking next to Senegal and Romania.

pojntfx 7y ago
If someone will ever ask me what a "whataboutism" is, I will point it them to your comment right here.
kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
Pretty meaningless index when American citizens are free to promote a separatist agenda and the higher ranked Spaniards can't.
- gjulianm 7y ago
  Yes we can. There are independentists in parliament. The president of Catalonia is an independentist. Pro-independence demonstrations happen and there are no arrests just by going there (except in riots, but that's because the police force is way too uncontrolled, not because of a general freedom of expression issue). This takedown was to an app that was used to organize a blockage of a major airport. I do not agree with the takedown, but I do not think it's such a clear cut that it's 'freedom of expression'.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    The treatment of Carles Puigdemont and others is hardly consistent with free expression.
    - FullMetalBitch 7y ago
      Puigdemoont is free and has been free to say whatever he wants but embezzlment is a crime.

Unai 7y ago

What a tremendously uneducated comment. Freedom of expression has not being limited in Spain in any way or form, not at all. The apk was removed because a judge (not politics, not the police) confirmed that the app was used to organize violent manifestations. And GitHub had to legally comply with the warrant. No action is being taken to stop manifestations, only to stop the organization of violence. In case you want to also made the uneducated point that the violence is necessary, I want to remind you that the fact that people manifest doesn't automatically mean there exist oppression from the state, as in this case, there is none.

manuelflara 7y ago
> What a tremendously uneducated comment. Freedom of expression has not being limited in Spain in any way or form, not at all. What an ironic couple of sentences tied together... In Spain we have rappers who have been sentenced to jail time for having lyrics criticizing the King. If that isn't limiting freedom of expression, I don't know what is. Reference: https://www.elperiodico.com/es/ocio-y-cultura/20180221/valtonyc-letras-6640601 https://www.elperiodico.com/es/ocio-y-cultura/20180221/valto...
- lentil_soup 7y ago
  I think he's talking about the Github takedown notice, not about Spain in general
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - tbatchelli 7y ago
    I believe the OP is talking about Spain in general when she/he writes "Freedom of expression has not being limited in Spain in any way or form, not at all.", wouldn't you agree?
gerardvivancos 7y ago
What’s the name of the judge?