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If the current trend of technology is sweeping us in a direction of “everything is amazing, but nothing is ours”, Technology that’s Actually Yours could be the

If the current trend of technology is sweeping us in a direction of “everything is amazing, but nothing is ours”, Technology that’s Actually Yours could be the next great counter-trend So GNU or it’s predecessors, circa the birth of the personal computer. if “the cloud and apps” is cognate with “timeshare mainframes and thin clients”, and I think it is, then everything old is new again and i look forward to taking back what’s ours, again.

api 7y ago
Yes, absolutely. Cloud is the new mainframe and SaaS is the new closed-source even if the software it's running behind the scenes is nominally open.
- code_duck 7y ago
  The infrastructure might be open, mostly, but all of the important software the consumers interact with on a higher level is closed and secret.
- drskrzyk 7y ago
  I'm hoping that the AGPL has or will curb some of this lock in, though I suspect that the people with the funding to run SaaS at scale will route around AGPL.
  - brian-armstrong 7y ago
    It's even easier to avoid AGPL than that - there is approximately 0 software of any value licensed only in AGPL.
  - erikpukinskis 7y ago
    I’ve been ruminating on this problem for a decade or more and my belief is it’s not the licensing that’s the problem, it’s the infrastructure. In the old world of tarballs, you could throw a file on an ftp server and someone could take an afternoon, mess with the paths and the make and make install and all that, and have your thing up and running. And mostly keep using it without fuss. With web services you just can’t. You minimum need security patches applies, and in truth, you need the original author to be able to keep refactoring and updating the service architecture. We don’t have infrastructure that can facilitate that. That’s the real problem, not licensing. You can put a Heroku buildpack or whatever in your repo. That gets us pretty close to one-click deploy, and almost automatic security patching. But Heroku will penalize us with a 30 delay for being non-profit, when we access the service, which is pretty much a deal breaker. Even if I am paying them a hundred dollars a month (and I am) they will still pause for 30 seconds every time I access one of my cold “free” services. If there was a hosting solution, even if it involved users paying a monthly fee, but it solved this issue of shared maintenance of open source services, it would usher in a new golden age of free software. Ostensibly Ethereum solves this problem, but we’ll see if the ergonomics get where they need to be. It would be nice to be able to do this in a trustless way, although I don’t think that’s necessary for a MVP.
hanniabu 7y ago
> Technology that’s Actually Yours could be the next great counter-trend Or technology that's nobody's, aka decentralized networks
- huehehue 7y ago
  You mean "technology that's everybody's"
  - rabidrat 7y ago
    You know what they say, when everyone is responsible, no one is responsible.
- jarvuschris 7y ago
  The antidote to today's rampant centralization of technical infrastructure isn't rampant decentralization though The PC revolution happened when people become empowered to work together fluidly in a pyramid of specialization and cost sharing Where we need to focus is opportunistic clustering, both of development and operations
  - duncan-donuts 7y ago
    But how tho? I get what you’re saying but I don’t understand how to act on it.
    - hos234 7y ago
      You have to follow the 'network science' crowd. eg -https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1187331121777786883 https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1187331121777786883 https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1187331121777786883 https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1187331121777786883
      - jarvuschris 7y ago
        Good recommendation, thanks!
new_realist 7y ago
GNU is part of the problem. If you depend on GPL software, you depend on something which isn’t yours, in that your behavior is restricted.
- jdnenej 7y ago
  You are only restricted from restricting others. That sounds very fair to me.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    The core MIT/GPL licensed code is always going to be free. The license restricts people in what they can do with _their_ modification of that code. E.g. whether they can package _their_ modifications of it as closed. Sounds like a restriction to me.
    - tremon 7y ago
      As the recipient of an MIT-licensed binary, you have no rights. As the recipient of a GPL-licensed binary, you have the right to ask for the accompanying source code. Sounds like freedom to me.
      - coldtea 7y ago
        Nobody ever defined freedom as in "what somebody can additionally demand when given something for free".
        jdnenej 7y ago
        This debate comes up all the time. Does freedom refer to my freedom or everyone's freedom. My freedom to shoot you is limited by your freedom to not be harmed. My freedoms have been limited but this is very fair.
- naringas 7y ago
  but it's restricted such that you and whomever you depend on must collaborate on the shared code
booleandilemma 7y ago
We’ll need new buzzwords to lead the way. Let’s face it, “fat client” just isn’t sexy. I propose: “Geo-computing” - we’re computing on Earth again. “Serverful” - servers are back. “Clear sky solutions” - self-hosted, cloudless applications.
- Nition 7y ago
  When someone has their head in The Cloud(s), they're not thinking practically. The opposite of being grounded, down-to-earth. Get your data back on The Ground.
  - dTal 7y ago
    This is more than a buzzword - this a metaphoric tool of thought that could drive a whole marketing (anti-marketing?) campaign by itself. I love it.
    - SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
      It's also reminiscent of "boots on the ground" and the implication of honest, hard graft that comes along with it.
  - sdiupIGPWEfh 7y ago
    Take back your data and kiss latency goodbye. When you deploy Boots™ on The Ground, you're in command.
- marknadal 7y ago
  Currently it is being called the dWeb, Internet Archive helping push this along. Here is an NBC short documentary on it, with me and the Archive in it: https://www.nbcnews.com/video/building-a-new-internet-the-bold-plan-to-decentralize-the-web-63742021851 https://www.nbcnews.com/video/building-a-new-internet-the-bo... I think "community powered" or "community rooted" gets at the most important values of it.

api 7y ago

Yes, absolutely. Cloud is the new mainframe and SaaS is the new closed-source even if the software it's running behind the scenes is nominally open.

code_duck 7y ago
The infrastructure might be open, mostly, but all of the important software the consumers interact with on a higher level is closed and secret.
drskrzyk 7y ago
I'm hoping that the AGPL has or will curb some of this lock in, though I suspect that the people with the funding to run SaaS at scale will route around AGPL.
- brian-armstrong 7y ago
  It's even easier to avoid AGPL than that - there is approximately 0 software of any value licensed only in AGPL.
- erikpukinskis 7y ago
  I’ve been ruminating on this problem for a decade or more and my belief is it’s not the licensing that’s the problem, it’s the infrastructure. In the old world of tarballs, you could throw a file on an ftp server and someone could take an afternoon, mess with the paths and the make and make install and all that, and have your thing up and running. And mostly keep using it without fuss. With web services you just can’t. You minimum need security patches applies, and in truth, you need the original author to be able to keep refactoring and updating the service architecture. We don’t have infrastructure that can facilitate that. That’s the real problem, not licensing. You can put a Heroku buildpack or whatever in your repo. That gets us pretty close to one-click deploy, and almost automatic security patching. But Heroku will penalize us with a 30 delay for being non-profit, when we access the service, which is pretty much a deal breaker. Even if I am paying them a hundred dollars a month (and I am) they will still pause for 30 seconds every time I access one of my cold “free” services. If there was a hosting solution, even if it involved users paying a monthly fee, but it solved this issue of shared maintenance of open source services, it would usher in a new golden age of free software. Ostensibly Ethereum solves this problem, but we’ll see if the ergonomics get where they need to be. It would be nice to be able to do this in a trustless way, although I don’t think that’s necessary for a MVP.

hanniabu 7y ago

> Technology that’s Actually Yours could be the next great counter-trend Or technology that's nobody's, aka decentralized networks

huehehue 7y ago
You mean "technology that's everybody's"
- rabidrat 7y ago
  You know what they say, when everyone is responsible, no one is responsible.
jarvuschris 7y ago
The antidote to today's rampant centralization of technical infrastructure isn't rampant decentralization though The PC revolution happened when people become empowered to work together fluidly in a pyramid of specialization and cost sharing Where we need to focus is opportunistic clustering, both of development and operations
- duncan-donuts 7y ago
  But how tho? I get what you’re saying but I don’t understand how to act on it.
  - hos234 7y ago
    You have to follow the 'network science' crowd. eg -https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1187331121777786883 https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1187331121777786883 https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1187331121777786883 https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1187331121777786883
    - jarvuschris 7y ago
      Good recommendation, thanks!

new_realist 7y ago

GNU is part of the problem. If you depend on GPL software, you depend on something which isn’t yours, in that your behavior is restricted.

jdnenej 7y ago
You are only restricted from restricting others. That sounds very fair to me.
- coldtea 7y ago
  The core MIT/GPL licensed code is always going to be free. The license restricts people in what they can do with _their_ modification of that code. E.g. whether they can package _their_ modifications of it as closed. Sounds like a restriction to me.
  - tremon 7y ago
    As the recipient of an MIT-licensed binary, you have no rights. As the recipient of a GPL-licensed binary, you have the right to ask for the accompanying source code. Sounds like freedom to me.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      Nobody ever defined freedom as in "what somebody can additionally demand when given something for free".
      - jdnenej 7y ago
        This debate comes up all the time. Does freedom refer to my freedom or everyone's freedom. My freedom to shoot you is limited by your freedom to not be harmed. My freedoms have been limited but this is very fair.
naringas 7y ago
but it's restricted such that you and whomever you depend on must collaborate on the shared code

booleandilemma 7y ago

We’ll need new buzzwords to lead the way. Let’s face it, “fat client” just isn’t sexy. I propose: “Geo-computing” - we’re computing on Earth again. “Serverful” - servers are back. “Clear sky solutions” - self-hosted, cloudless applications.

Nition 7y ago
When someone has their head in The Cloud(s), they're not thinking practically. The opposite of being grounded, down-to-earth. Get your data back on The Ground.
- dTal 7y ago
  This is more than a buzzword - this a metaphoric tool of thought that could drive a whole marketing (anti-marketing?) campaign by itself. I love it.
  - SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
    It's also reminiscent of "boots on the ground" and the implication of honest, hard graft that comes along with it.
- sdiupIGPWEfh 7y ago
  Take back your data and kiss latency goodbye. When you deploy Boots™ on The Ground, you're in command.
marknadal 7y ago
Currently it is being called the dWeb, Internet Archive helping push this along. Here is an NBC short documentary on it, with me and the Archive in it: https://www.nbcnews.com/video/building-a-new-internet-the-bold-plan-to-decentralize-the-web-63742021851 https://www.nbcnews.com/video/building-a-new-internet-the-bo... I think "community powered" or "community rooted" gets at the most important values of it.