13 ms·

We received an apology email at the same time, well written, explaining what they did wrong, apologizing, promising to do a post-mortem, promising to not send t

by jbk 7y ago

We received an apology email at the same time, well written, explaining what they did wrong, apologizing, promising to do a post-mortem, promising to not send to 3rd party trackers, and saying they did a mistake and waiting for feedbacks on the issue tracker. And with very little BS in the mail. Such level of transparency, of apologizing and clarity, especially written at the first person "I am truly sorry." is very rare and should be praised.

stiray 7y ago
What should really be praised... Without further, congratulations to everyone protesting against this gitlab move. This is something that should be done years back when google started with its tracking, same with facebook. This was the behaviour that should be seen each and every time some company wants to take advantage of its users. But to my sadness it is rarely seen. So once again congratulations to each and every gitlab user that did anything against their move.
- brlewis 7y ago
  Yeah, people back then should have written angry replies to Google's and Facebook's advance warnings about the tracking they were planning on doing. /s
  - journalctl 7y ago
    Oh, so we only live in a surveillance-capitalist state because we didn’t send Facebook and Google enough emails? D’oh! Who knew it was that simple?
    - reactor4 7y ago
      read it again...
- tjoff 7y ago
  It was done. There even was those small banners that said something in the way of "if you have gmail I won't mail you" etc. Thing is, the broader public don't care. The difference between gitlab and gmail is primarily that developers care more about this stuff and value their code more than most people care about their email. They are also much more informed in the matter, most using gmail haven't got a clue.
  - z92 7y ago
    There's a difference between gitlab and gmail. People pay for gitlab while gmail is free. Google can easily declare "either you take it for what it is, or leave." Gitlab can't.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - derf_ 7y ago
      A lot of institutions used to run their own e-mail. Over the years I've watched as my e-mail addresses (both universities and my current employer) have been replaced by Gmail on the backend. All of them stopped being willing to manage e-mail themselves. None of them were willing to use a less surveillance-oriented provider. That choice wasn't made by consumers. It was made by the same kind of informed IT people. I suspect it wasn't free, either.
      - hunter2_ 7y ago
        For universities, it actually is free (as in beer), aside from the university staff's compensation toward the migration.
      - godzillabrennus 7y ago
        I remember when Dartmouth ran blitz mail... when google talk supported jabber... when people complained mostly about MAPI... It’s a shame that so many innovations are being squashed in communication because of the “free” price for cloud solutions. Google is learning so much about students thanks to this program.
- imglorp 7y ago
  It's a tiny SaaS that depends on customer good will. A few hundred pings did the job because we matter. If only this worked with giant corps. FB has around 2.4 billion MAU and a few nerd rants won't be noticed the next time they screw the user and a handful complain.
  - xxs 7y ago
    >'tiny' Goldman Sachs valued it close to $3b.
- matz1 7y ago
  If you want to ban tracking, I would totally oppose it. I think its great that google manage to make money out of my personal data, and in return I get to use their of free service. Fortunately, in the regards of google user, there are more people who are fine (or don't care) with tracking.
  - throwawayhhakdl 7y ago
    What google services do you think would not continue to be free if they couldn’t mine your personal data?
  - hunter2_ 7y ago
    The ability for people to have amazing technology and spend no currency on it is, in my opinion, a net positive for the world. But it would be nice if there were some provable toggle switch to choose between paying with data and paying with currency, for those who prefer the latter. Since proof is problematic, carefully selecting your vendor is the toggle switch, and that kind of switching unfortunately has switching costs including the massive inconvenience when, say, using an Android phone without a Google account.
- tomnipotent 7y ago
  > same with facebook There was a huge uproar when Facebook first launched "Beacon", and it was cancelled as a result. Unfortunately it just morphed into the Facebook Platform and eventually the Pixel. Same pig with different lipstick.
- piokoch 7y ago
  Frankly I can understand that ads selling company like Google wants to track its users. Their core business depends on that. Why Gitlab wanted to do this I have no idea, sounds like some marketing people came up with such idea "because everyone is doing this"? Tracking wasn't going to bring much revenue, if any, so they could just get rid of that, trying to turn it into some positive PR. The cynic in me tells me that if they smell any significant money from tracking they would tell HN and the rest to back off (or would added some convoluted way to opt-out from tracking).
truthwhisperer 7y ago
Sure we should be very glad that we are the chosen ones to use Gitlab Next iteration they will put in a voluntary option and the release after it has become mandatory for using "bullshit" reasons such as third parties plugins or to prevent terrorism
ageofwant 7y ago
What concerns me is how it got to the point of having to apologize in the first place. It implies a level of disconnect and and corporate group-think that is fundamentally misaligned with core customer expectation of what is in essence a community enabling system. How did Gitlab end up with a set of managers that ever thought this would fly ? They clearly were completely surprised by their customer's reaction - something that almost any of Gitlab' users would have understood viscerally. This level of management disconnect does not bode well for Gitlab, as a paying customer this worries me...
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Still, it's worth something that they reversed course and apologized, where so many companies wouldn't do either.
Madeindjs 7y ago
You can read email content on this issue https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5672 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5672
cryptonector 7y ago
Nice! An apology apology! Way to go GitLab!
scotth 7y ago
Yes. Wonderful. More like this!
saithir 7y ago
No, there's nothing to praise here. When I delete all my repositories by hand, one by one, I expect to not find a joke in that email about how "this email is sent to you because you have an active repository on Gitlab". When I delete an account on Gitlab I expect to be deleted from all further mailings (especially ones I never subscribed separately to), yet I got this email today. How many more places do I have to delete my information from to finally be rid of Gitlab? How many more third-party companies Gitlab shared my data with at this point? Because that they do have it, there's no question about it - after all I just got this email.
- emilycook 7y ago
  Hi GitLab employee, we used the same mailing list as the one we used for the first email, so that's why you still received it. If you deleted your account you won't get any future emails.
xxs 7y ago
Given that any default opt-out is a clear violation of GDPR when it comes to data gathering, I wonder how it ever passed compliance/legal. Given the size of the company (valued ~ $3b) they should have some 'data protection officer' position. I recall they setup some blog page with explanations, so obviously they expected push back. Part of my work is making sure policies, code, etc. are compliant. Notifying compliance for such changes should be a standard procedure as well. In this regard I can't understand how the entire process went through, as GDPR challenge should have been expected.
- red_admiral 7y ago
  There is a comment on the issue tracker alleging that the CFO overrode concerns by the Director of Global Risk and Compliance.
  - xxs 7y ago
    wow, do you have a link for? pushing through legal recommendation is quite reckless. GDPR is quite a hot topic and the regulation has real teeth (aside the public backlash)
    - red_admiral 7y ago
      It's a comment by @rfc1459 on https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5672 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5672 "The CFO trying to overrule issues raised by the Director of Global Risk and Compliance. \n\n Just... wow." relating to https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/merge_requests/14182#note_203849107 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/merge_requests/14182#no... - which on closer reading refers to snowplow, not Pendo. The original comment from Paul Machle is "I don’t understand. This should not be an opt in or an opt out. It is a condition of using our product. There is an acceptance of terms and the use of this data should be included in that." I am not a lawyer, but that does contradict pretty much everything I've been taught about GDPR.
red_admiral 7y ago
Saying "I'm sorry" when you don't have to is worth praise. Saying it when your back is to the wall and your job is on the line - even cowards can do that. I agree it's one of the best-written apologies I've heard in a while, and they deserve some praise for not letting the corporate ~bullshit~ PR department run loose all over it. But still. I suggest that whoever is responsible should resign as a result of this Pendogate business. I feel that he has betrayed users' trust in a way where an apology alone is not sufficient. I personally consider the original plan - we'll lock you out of your accounts and disable the API until you accept our new TOS, if you don't like it there's the door - far worse than anything Brendan Eich ever did, for example. I don't want people who ever think that could be an acceptable idea in charge of a company I rely on day-to-day. Replacing him would be a very strong signal from Gitlab's board that they are truly sorry and understand the severity of this scandal, and would also encourage future CFOs to take their users' views more seriously. It is pathetic in a way that while lots of people were worried that Microsoft would "corporatise" github, it's gitlab that decided it was ok to threaten to lock people out from their accounts until they "consented" to this. _EDIT: Paul Machle is CFO, Sid Sijbrandij is CEO and the person who sent the apology. I have removed names from the original post as I am not sure which of them signed off the original idea. I expect a CEO to take the attitude "the buck stops with me" though - they should be accountable even if they're not directly responsible._

by jbk 7y ago

stiray 7y ago

What should really be praised... Without further, congratulations to everyone protesting against this gitlab move. This is something that should be done years back when google started with its tracking, same with facebook. This was the behaviour that should be seen each and every time some company wants to take advantage of its users. But to my sadness it is rarely seen. So once again congratulations to each and every gitlab user that did anything against their move.

brlewis 7y ago
Yeah, people back then should have written angry replies to Google's and Facebook's advance warnings about the tracking they were planning on doing. /s
- journalctl 7y ago
  Oh, so we only live in a surveillance-capitalist state because we didn’t send Facebook and Google enough emails? D’oh! Who knew it was that simple?
  - reactor4 7y ago
    read it again...
tjoff 7y ago
It was done. There even was those small banners that said something in the way of "if you have gmail I won't mail you" etc. Thing is, the broader public don't care. The difference between gitlab and gmail is primarily that developers care more about this stuff and value their code more than most people care about their email. They are also much more informed in the matter, most using gmail haven't got a clue.
- z92 7y ago
  There's a difference between gitlab and gmail. People pay for gitlab while gmail is free. Google can easily declare "either you take it for what it is, or leave." Gitlab can't.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - derf_ 7y ago
    A lot of institutions used to run their own e-mail. Over the years I've watched as my e-mail addresses (both universities and my current employer) have been replaced by Gmail on the backend. All of them stopped being willing to manage e-mail themselves. None of them were willing to use a less surveillance-oriented provider. That choice wasn't made by consumers. It was made by the same kind of informed IT people. I suspect it wasn't free, either.
    - hunter2_ 7y ago
      For universities, it actually is free (as in beer), aside from the university staff's compensation toward the migration.
    - godzillabrennus 7y ago
      I remember when Dartmouth ran blitz mail... when google talk supported jabber... when people complained mostly about MAPI... It’s a shame that so many innovations are being squashed in communication because of the “free” price for cloud solutions. Google is learning so much about students thanks to this program.
imglorp 7y ago
It's a tiny SaaS that depends on customer good will. A few hundred pings did the job because we matter. If only this worked with giant corps. FB has around 2.4 billion MAU and a few nerd rants won't be noticed the next time they screw the user and a handful complain.
- xxs 7y ago
  >'tiny' Goldman Sachs valued it close to $3b.
matz1 7y ago
If you want to ban tracking, I would totally oppose it. I think its great that google manage to make money out of my personal data, and in return I get to use their of free service. Fortunately, in the regards of google user, there are more people who are fine (or don't care) with tracking.
- throwawayhhakdl 7y ago
  What google services do you think would not continue to be free if they couldn’t mine your personal data?
- hunter2_ 7y ago
  The ability for people to have amazing technology and spend no currency on it is, in my opinion, a net positive for the world. But it would be nice if there were some provable toggle switch to choose between paying with data and paying with currency, for those who prefer the latter. Since proof is problematic, carefully selecting your vendor is the toggle switch, and that kind of switching unfortunately has switching costs including the massive inconvenience when, say, using an Android phone without a Google account.
tomnipotent 7y ago
> same with facebook There was a huge uproar when Facebook first launched "Beacon", and it was cancelled as a result. Unfortunately it just morphed into the Facebook Platform and eventually the Pixel. Same pig with different lipstick.
piokoch 7y ago
Frankly I can understand that ads selling company like Google wants to track its users. Their core business depends on that. Why Gitlab wanted to do this I have no idea, sounds like some marketing people came up with such idea "because everyone is doing this"? Tracking wasn't going to bring much revenue, if any, so they could just get rid of that, trying to turn it into some positive PR. The cynic in me tells me that if they smell any significant money from tracking they would tell HN and the rest to back off (or would added some convoluted way to opt-out from tracking).

truthwhisperer 7y ago

Sure we should be very glad that we are the chosen ones to use Gitlab Next iteration they will put in a voluntary option and the release after it has become mandatory for using "bullshit" reasons such as third parties plugins or to prevent terrorism

ageofwant 7y ago

What concerns me is how it got to the point of having to apologize in the first place. It implies a level of disconnect and and corporate group-think that is fundamentally misaligned with core customer expectation of what is in essence a community enabling system. How did Gitlab end up with a set of managers that ever thought this would fly ? They clearly were completely surprised by their customer's reaction - something that almost any of Gitlab' users would have understood viscerally. This level of management disconnect does not bode well for Gitlab, as a paying customer this worries me...

TeMPOraL 7y ago
Still, it's worth something that they reversed course and apologized, where so many companies wouldn't do either.

Madeindjs 7y ago

You can read email content on this issue https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5672 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5672

cryptonector 7y ago

Nice! An apology apology! Way to go GitLab!

scotth 7y ago

Yes. Wonderful. More like this!

saithir 7y ago

No, there's nothing to praise here. When I delete all my repositories by hand, one by one, I expect to not find a joke in that email about how "this email is sent to you because you have an active repository on Gitlab". When I delete an account on Gitlab I expect to be deleted from all further mailings (especially ones I never subscribed separately to), yet I got this email today. How many more places do I have to delete my information from to finally be rid of Gitlab? How many more third-party companies Gitlab shared my data with at this point? Because that they do have it, there's no question about it - after all I just got this email.

emilycook 7y ago
Hi GitLab employee, we used the same mailing list as the one we used for the first email, so that's why you still received it. If you deleted your account you won't get any future emails.

xxs 7y ago

Given that any default opt-out is a clear violation of GDPR when it comes to data gathering, I wonder how it ever passed compliance/legal. Given the size of the company (valued ~ $3b) they should have some 'data protection officer' position. I recall they setup some blog page with explanations, so obviously they expected push back. Part of my work is making sure policies, code, etc. are compliant. Notifying compliance for such changes should be a standard procedure as well. In this regard I can't understand how the entire process went through, as GDPR challenge should have been expected.

red_admiral 7y ago
There is a comment on the issue tracker alleging that the CFO overrode concerns by the Director of Global Risk and Compliance.
- xxs 7y ago
  wow, do you have a link for? pushing through legal recommendation is quite reckless. GDPR is quite a hot topic and the regulation has real teeth (aside the public backlash)
  - red_admiral 7y ago
    It's a comment by @rfc1459 on https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5672 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5672 "The CFO trying to overrule issues raised by the Director of Global Risk and Compliance. \n\n Just... wow." relating to https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/merge_requests/14182#note_203849107 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/merge_requests/14182#no... - which on closer reading refers to snowplow, not Pendo. The original comment from Paul Machle is "I don’t understand. This should not be an opt in or an opt out. It is a condition of using our product. There is an acceptance of terms and the use of this data should be included in that." I am not a lawyer, but that does contradict pretty much everything I've been taught about GDPR.

red_admiral 7y ago

Saying "I'm sorry" when you don't have to is worth praise. Saying it when your back is to the wall and your job is on the line - even cowards can do that. I agree it's one of the best-written apologies I've heard in a while, and they deserve some praise for not letting the corporate ~bullshit~ PR department run loose all over it. But still. I suggest that whoever is responsible should resign as a result of this Pendogate business. I feel that he has betrayed users' trust in a way where an apology alone is not sufficient. I personally consider the original plan - we'll lock you out of your accounts and disable the API until you accept our new TOS, if you don't like it there's the door - far worse than anything Brendan Eich ever did, for example. I don't want people who ever think that could be an acceptable idea in charge of a company I rely on day-to-day. Replacing him would be a very strong signal from Gitlab's board that they are truly sorry and understand the severity of this scandal, and would also encourage future CFOs to take their users' views more seriously. It is pathetic in a way that while lots of people were worried that Microsoft would "corporatise" github, it's gitlab that decided it was ok to threaten to lock people out from their accounts until they "consented" to this. _EDIT: Paul Machle is CFO, Sid Sijbrandij is CEO and the person who sent the apology. I have removed names from the original post as I am not sure which of them signed off the original idea. I expect a CEO to take the attitude "the buck stops with me" though - they should be accountable even if they're not directly responsible._