6 ms·

If filing for bankruptcy had no negative consequences I would agree, but that isn't the case. I agree that we shouldn't be bailing out banks, but we should have

• geggam 7y ago
  Disagree, You make the choices for life. Accept personal responsibility.
  • mikestew 7y ago
    I’m going to assume that you’re young with limited life experience, which allows you to think that life is that clear-cut. I’d argue, but experience tells me I’ll have to wait until life decides its your turn to stand in front of the steam roller. A much less charitable interpretation has you making convenient answers so that you can conveniently wash your hands of social responsibility. But, man, I hate think that about anyone, even anonymous internet commenters.
    • geggam 7y ago
      Wrong. 5 decades in, started in the trailer park and worked my way up. Had enough life challenges to understand how this stuff works.
      • mikestew 7y ago
        Then I guess option B is all I’m left with.
        • geggam 7y ago
          OK little story here Abusive drunk family, plenty of legal issues as a child, ran over by a drunk driver, ( flatlined 3 times in ICU for a month and disabled ), divorced 2 times, 2 kids, married again, adopted 2 kids, worked my way into silicon valley, now I do ok cliff notes of my life. Judge me all you want but what I have learned is life is a fight to the death. You can lay down and let it run over you complaining about how the deck is stacked against you or you can do the best you can. Your choice. I have and will continue to help those who I see fighting the good fight but I have no empathy for quitters.
          • Frondo 7y ago
            This is a bad way to run a society, that everyone is "in a fight to the death," especially for the wealthiest nation in history. We're sitting on enough resources to feed and house everyone, and the rich would still be fabulously rich. "I struggled, therefore struggle is okay" is not the answer.
            • geggam 7y ago
              I didn't quit and because of that succeeded in spite of the obstacles. There is your example. Trust me... being on disability was an option and quite tempting. I wanted more out of life than to sit around letting others take care of me.
              • Frondo 7y ago
                You know that statement, the plural of anecdote is not data? Lots of people struggle and what you're describing is just crab bucket. You struggled so you think it's okay if everyone does. It's not.
                • geggam 7y ago
                  Not struggling through life would be what I call privilege. Someone did struggle and gave you that privilege. No one coasts through life without someone struggling.
    • __blockcipher__ 7y ago
      What a horrifically uncharitable assumption to make. Why not just actually argue the point you want to make rather than resorting to not-so-subtle personal attacks?
      • toomuchtodo 7y ago
        It’s uncharitable to have a disdain for those without empathy when a large component of success is luck? If you think success is guaranteed with grit and hard work, you are woefully misinformed. You can do everything right and still fail hard. “Personal responsibility” is a dog whistle for the willful ignorance of the necessity of government regulation and social safety nets.
        • geggam 7y ago
          Granted I only have 5 decades of perspective but I have noticed people who get lucky tend to be the ones who dont quit. The ones who quit tend to call those who dont quit lucky.
          • toomuchtodo 7y ago
            And those who don’t quit and still die in the gutter? “Lack of hustle”? Your five decades is a drop in the bucket of human experience. I recommend more empathy and introspection on suffering of your fellow human.
            • geggam 7y ago
              I am not the only person with this perspective. Some very accomplished people agree with me. “Shallow men believe in luck or in circumstance. Strong men believe in cause and effect.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson You don't know that dying in a gutter was actually better than the other option for their life.
              • deleted 7y ago
                [deleted]
  • entropicdrifter 7y ago
    Financial abuse exists.
  • geggam 7y ago
    I understand the downvoters here want someone else to take care of them. Sorry. If you want a functioning society you have to contribute. Not mooch. In the words of JFK And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country.
    • ceejayoz 7y ago
      How does your "functioning society" handle the disabled? Into the Soylent Green factory with them?
      • geggam 7y ago
        Their family has that responsibility. I dont mind society creating allowances but the US has went too far and created barriers to small businesses with all of the disability requirements. I have many friends with small businesses that would like to start their own shop but the toilet requirement alone is almost 100k in up front cost. Ridiculous.
        • ceejayoz 7y ago
          > Their family has that responsibility. Orphans? Abused children? What happens to them?
        • SolaceQuantum 7y ago
          Ask not what the US can do for you, but what you can do for the US. Isn't this the exact same scenario you're claiming? Your friends should take personal responsibility instead of asking the government to bend to them. No? (I'm trying to understand your logic here and how it applies to multiple circumstances. I think they're incongruous here, but I don't understand why.)
          • geggam 7y ago
            You dont need to spend that sort of money to make it so a wheelchair person can use the pooper. Govt regulations require you spend that sort of money. Therein lies the problem.
  • chooseaname 7y ago
    > Disagree, You make the choices for life. Accept personal responsibility. Most people do accept responsibility. This is the problem: >In the decade through 2018, average household incomes for those with a high school diploma have risen about 15%, to roughly $46,000, according to the latest U.S. Census Bureau data available. >Not only is that less than the 20% increase registered on a broad basket of goods over the span, but key costs that play an outsize role in middle-class budgets have increased much more: home prices are up 26%, medical care 33%, and college costs a whopping 45%. >To keep up, Americans borrowed. A lot. Unsecured personal loans, as well as mortgage, auto, credit-card and student debt have all steadily climbed over the span. Companies don't give (adequate) raises. They return money to investors. So, every year, the middle class is losing ground. These people are desperate. You can mock them all you want, but they're out there building your home, making sure your utilities stay on, deliver your produce to your favorite store. They're trying, but the economy is taking advantage of them.
    • twh270 7y ago
      That is a problem. Also, personal responsibility (or the lack thereof) is a problem. Jebus. Seems like everyone wants one thing to blame. It ain't that simple.
    • geggam 7y ago
      > but the economy is taking advantage of them. Interested in hearing how you explain this. I dont disagree with you but I would like to know what you see as the root cause.
      • Djvacto 7y ago
        I'm pretty sure it's explained by the description of "Company gets money through directing employee labor, but an uneven portion of it is given back to shareholders instead of employees". aka being employed is a worse deal than being an investor, disproportionately.
        • geggam 7y ago
          I was hoping for more insight than "my employer doesnt pay enough" ... while true its not really a root cause of the situation IMO You can always start your own business or simply work for a different company. No one owes you employment.
  • theseadroid 7y ago
    Just like the rich didn't get rich entirely because of their own abilities, poor people didn't get poor because they chose to. Placing the poor people in an environment where there are better education, better healthcare and better career opportunities always results in better financial decision making. So the society bears most if not all responsibilities. How can we eliminate poverty if it's entirely personal responsibility? Let me quote Mandela on this: >Like slavery and apartheid, poverty is not natural. It is manmade, and it can be overcome and eradicated by the actions of human beings. And overcoming poverty is not a gesture of charity. It is an act of justice. It is the protection of a fundamental human right, the right to dignity and a decent life.
    • logicchains 7y ago
      >Like slavery and apartheid, poverty is not natural. This is absurd. Man in nature has no house, no car, no money, no tools, no storehouse, he can eat only what he can catch, kill or forage for. Everything we have in civilisation was built by people working hard to escape the poverty and brutality of nature.
      • theseadroid 7y ago
        Yes. But no one is poor if everyone is poor. Poverty is a relative term. It's basically inequality in disguise.
        • geggam 7y ago
          Man is created with equal rights but not equal talents or intelligence. If there is any luck in life its the genetic lottery.
          • theseadroid 7y ago
            We can go into the debate of how much inequality is healthy for a society to encourage innovation and hard work. However in many parts of the world and even U.S. I would say many talented and intelligent people didn't even get the chance to work hard to earn something because the society didn't provide them such a chance. Your personal experience is moving but the reality is many people are rich not because they worked hard and many poor not because they were lazy. Those (extreme) inequalities are a result of injustice. If a society is too unfair, that will surely discourage people to contribute to the society.
  • fzeroracer 7y ago
    Why does this seem to only apply to the poor and not the rich and wealthy? When a company takes illegal action to pollute streams and gets a slap on the wrist, or investor kickbacks result in worse and worse wildfires in California, where's the personal responsibility? When it comes to loans and bankruptcy we're expecting people to suck it up and live under the thumb of debt for the rest of their lives for the fall of needing money to pay rent, go to college or deal with medical bills. I've been through enough shit myself that I have plenty of empathy for people with no choice. Calling them 'quitters' (in reference to your other comment') is absolute nonsense and simply a way of rationalizing FGYM.
• specialp 7y ago
  Conversely if overextending yourself for whatever reason had no consequences, it would be to your disadvantage not to overextend yourself. How do we determine who should be "bailed out"? Seems the issues that are unavoidable that could cause ruin (illness/disability) should be addressed at a higher level than borrowing money with no recourse.
  • geggam 7y ago
    I have no issues with socialized medicine. In fact the fact remains medicare is actually the one functioning health insurance we have because the govt sets the rates that can be charged. Unregulated healthcare is silly since people dont have a choice about their health ( not discussing the food choices ) People do have a choice about borrowing money.
    • heavenlyblue 7y ago
      Health is going to become a bigger problem once we reach a point in the development of our medicine when we could literally heal anyone. Right now government-subsidised healtcare works because keeping yourself healthy simply can not be externalised to the government. But what if I could spend the beat of my years being a coke-snorting socialite hoping to meet someone at one of those parties who would make my life? 20-year alcoholic? Let us grow you a liver for the total of $2M of taxpayer’s money.
• kirykl 7y ago
  What are the negative consequences of filing for bankruptcy for the individual? If you're at the point where bankruptcy is recommended, it's only up from there. They are either discharged of their debt or able to protect a house thru a payment plan.
  • ceejayoz 7y ago
    Might have trouble finding an apartment. The lowered credit score will probably cause increased costs for things like car insurance. Life insurance may be a no-go. Employers in some industries do credit checks, too. It's a good option in crushing debt, but it's not without significant mid-term downsides.
    • kirykl 7y ago
      If they are in the ballpark of bankruptcy, their credit score will already be destroyed. Bankruptcy will actually improve a credit score
      • ceejayoz 7y ago
        Bankruptcy will eventually improve the score. It's not instant, and may substantially worsen it in the short term. Some organizations that do credit checks may also have a "no recent bankruptcy" policy despite accepting lower credit scores. Not everyone's way behind at the time they declare bankruptcy, either. We did it because six figures worth of medical debt was ceasing to be juggleable, and disability approval (and back pay) looked to be years out still. Credit score was largely fine at the time we filed.
        • kirykl 7y ago
          I agree, bankruptcy is an unfortunate solution for unexpected medical debt, as it impacts ones consumer credit score. FWIW the GP comment was referring to "banks who loan money to folks who cannot afford it" which implies baling out consumer debt instead of filing for bankruptcy
• twh270 7y ago
  Yes, people go bankrupt for various reasons. Some reasons are more-or-less outside your control (medical costs being number one), many are at least partially within your control. When you say the government should bail out individuals, you're saying that I should pay for someone's gambling addiction, someone's lack of effort in finding a job after graduating from university with $150K in loans, someone's inability to manage their credit cards. It's one thing to help people who are in need, something else entirely to help people who are in a bad place because of their own poor decisions.
• SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  Bankruptcy is the safety net to bail out individuals. If you find yourself with too much debt to ever escape, regardless of how much it is and (mostly) regardless of how you got it, you get a reset button to wipe out all the debt you can't pay. The only negative consequences of bankruptcy (beyond the fact that it's not free to file) are the ones caused by the fact that it's the safety net; it's embarrassing to be forced to take it and lenders will judge you for needing it.