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>>Flash, you inspired the web. Now, there are web standards like HTML5 to continue your legacy. remember that time when Steve jobs kept out flash from iPhone /

>>Flash, you inspired the web. Now, there are web standards like HTML5 to continue your legacy. remember that time when Steve jobs kept out flash from iPhone /iPad vs Google's stance to go full on support for flash on mobile :)

willis936 7y ago
Remember when it was possible to have interactive animated vector graphics on the internet?
- jjtheblunt 7y ago
  I know you're making a joke, but thought SVG has been there and working since before Apple outlawed Flash for its battery draining behaviour.
  - willis936 7y ago
    On paper you’re right. The most interactive svg content I’ve seen are small demos and even those have to be hunted for. You don’t have to (or at least you didn’t in the past) have to look very hard to find large amounts of quality flash content. Good tools were ripped out of artists’ hands and the internet is worse for it. Where’s the replacement?
  - why-oh-why 7y ago
    Yeah have you tried authoring and animating SVG in 2008? Full of (browser support) holes and extremely poor performance, even on the "powerful" iPad in 2011. Flash by comparison would have been a breeze even on mobile.
  - irrational 7y ago
    It has been 10 years yet nobody has created a true replacement for Flash using SVG, Canvas, JS, etc. I wonder why?
    - jjtheblunt 7y ago
      I wonder if it's because, if one needs an expressive language, for vector graphics or whatever, then redundant things like XML and JSON are horribly non-concise choices, whereas Flash didn't suffer such problems, along with having excellent authoring tools.
entropicdrifter 7y ago
Yeah, and Steve Jobs' decision would have made sense in 2019, but in 2007 it was just a dick move.
- keymone 7y ago
  it was the right move. at that time flash was the biggest vector of attacks and the largest battery drain, why would you ever consider putting it in in the first place? apple was just bold, big and loved enough to survive the backlash from flash fanboys who, outraged, went buying android phones and proceeded to never use flash there either.
- inlined 7y ago
  Yet I’m not sure we would have reached that point now without the “dick move” then. Apple has always taken an aggressive stance to cut out things that reduce battery life. Blocking Flash and background processes were natural consequences
- moltensodium 7y ago
  Not really, by 2005 or so we all knew flash was terribly problematic and making the web much worse. Some people embraced it for sure, but in my experience most people involved with the web at this time had objections to Flash (and Adobe more widely).
  - djsumdog 7y ago
    Flash was fine for specific purposes .. animations and games mostly. Doing your whole site in Flash was dumb, but Homestar Runner and Newgrounds used it in really good ways.
- IshKebab 7y ago
  Rubbish. Flash on Android was always an awful experience. The best you could say about it was that it existed.
  - wutbrodo 7y ago
buboard 7y ago
Are we really sure it was Apple's fault? Their browser market share was always rather small and smaller outside the US. But Adobe seemed to reeeeeally abandon the thing after apple's decision. They could have at least open sourced it
- djsumdog 7y ago
  We'd be in a very different world of Adobe and Macromedia never merged. Adobe really killed flash, but maybe it was inevitable. From what I read, Flash's test suite was subpar to non-existent and people were afraid to touch anything in the codebase. It's so sad too because Flash is still amazing when it comes to animating vector graphics in a crossplatform way. Nothing in the HTML5 world remotely comes close. You can upscale Homestar Runner to 4k and it renders beautifully. Now that it's all YouTube videos, whatever resolution they rendered it at, there it will stay for forever (plus you lose all the clickable eastereggs in the Strong Bad e-mails!)
  - shadowgovt 7y ago
    > From what I read, Flash's test suite was subpar to non-existent and people were afraid to touch anything in the codebase. If that's the case, Flash should be held up as a case study for the utility of robust tests. Because the amount of refactoring needed to make it fit the mobile world was significant, and if the codebase was fragile because of lack of tests, that refactoring may have proved expensive enough to kill the whole technology stack.
scarface74 7y ago
Adobe claimed that it was Apple’s fault that Flash didn’t run on the original iPhone. But even if Apple has allowed it. Adobe still wouldn’t have been able to do it. When Adobe finally did make it to Android, it required a gig of RAM and a 1Ghz processor. The original iPhone had 256MB of RAM and a 400Mhz processor. An iPhone with those specs didn’t come out until 2011. One of the big selling points of the Motorola Xoom was that it would run Flash. Adobe was six months late leaving the Xoom in the embarrassing position that you couldn’t view its Flash enable home page from the device for at least the first six months.
- tinus_hn 7y ago
  Flash on mobile was always going to be shit because it was built without mobile in mind. It doesn’t support touch, it doesn’t make controls big enough to be usable by touch and it doesn’t implement the behavior people expect on a touch device. Just running the plugin on a phone isn’t the hard part.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Not even referring to the interface. Adobe couldn’t get Flash performance, memory footprint or energy usage acceptable for mobile.
    - tinus_hn 7y ago
      If the other problems would have been solved, the hardware has improved so much the performance issues wouldn’t have been much of an issue anymore. A modern phones performance can compete with a low end pc.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        It was five years before an iPhone met the minimum requirements that Adobe gave for Flash on mobile. Even then, a VM based runtime per app would be more memory intensive and more battery intensive. iOS devices just this year have start coming with 3GB of RAM across the board. iOS was able to get away with less RAM precisely because all code ran natively. Apple is able to optimize its OS, compiler chain, and processor in sync. Not to mention that an even more stripped down version of the core OS with tighter constraints is running on the watch. Not even mentioning that the average $250 Android device is much lower specced than the average iPhone. It wasn’t until last year that even high end Android phones were matching the performance of an iPhone 6s (released in 2015) in single core performance.

willis936 7y ago

Remember when it was possible to have interactive animated vector graphics on the internet?

jjtheblunt 7y ago
I know you're making a joke, but thought SVG has been there and working since before Apple outlawed Flash for its battery draining behaviour.
- willis936 7y ago
  On paper you’re right. The most interactive svg content I’ve seen are small demos and even those have to be hunted for. You don’t have to (or at least you didn’t in the past) have to look very hard to find large amounts of quality flash content. Good tools were ripped out of artists’ hands and the internet is worse for it. Where’s the replacement?
- why-oh-why 7y ago
  Yeah have you tried authoring and animating SVG in 2008? Full of (browser support) holes and extremely poor performance, even on the "powerful" iPad in 2011. Flash by comparison would have been a breeze even on mobile.
- irrational 7y ago
  It has been 10 years yet nobody has created a true replacement for Flash using SVG, Canvas, JS, etc. I wonder why?
  - jjtheblunt 7y ago
    I wonder if it's because, if one needs an expressive language, for vector graphics or whatever, then redundant things like XML and JSON are horribly non-concise choices, whereas Flash didn't suffer such problems, along with having excellent authoring tools.

entropicdrifter 7y ago

Yeah, and Steve Jobs' decision would have made sense in 2019, but in 2007 it was just a dick move.

keymone 7y ago
it was the right move. at that time flash was the biggest vector of attacks and the largest battery drain, why would you ever consider putting it in in the first place? apple was just bold, big and loved enough to survive the backlash from flash fanboys who, outraged, went buying android phones and proceeded to never use flash there either.
inlined 7y ago
Yet I’m not sure we would have reached that point now without the “dick move” then. Apple has always taken an aggressive stance to cut out things that reduce battery life. Blocking Flash and background processes were natural consequences
moltensodium 7y ago
Not really, by 2005 or so we all knew flash was terribly problematic and making the web much worse. Some people embraced it for sure, but in my experience most people involved with the web at this time had objections to Flash (and Adobe more widely).
- djsumdog 7y ago
  Flash was fine for specific purposes .. animations and games mostly. Doing your whole site in Flash was dumb, but Homestar Runner and Newgrounds used it in really good ways.
IshKebab 7y ago
Rubbish. Flash on Android was always an awful experience. The best you could say about it was that it existed.
- wutbrodo 7y ago

buboard 7y ago

Are we really sure it was Apple's fault? Their browser market share was always rather small and smaller outside the US. But Adobe seemed to reeeeeally abandon the thing after apple's decision. They could have at least open sourced it

djsumdog 7y ago
We'd be in a very different world of Adobe and Macromedia never merged. Adobe really killed flash, but maybe it was inevitable. From what I read, Flash's test suite was subpar to non-existent and people were afraid to touch anything in the codebase. It's so sad too because Flash is still amazing when it comes to animating vector graphics in a crossplatform way. Nothing in the HTML5 world remotely comes close. You can upscale Homestar Runner to 4k and it renders beautifully. Now that it's all YouTube videos, whatever resolution they rendered it at, there it will stay for forever (plus you lose all the clickable eastereggs in the Strong Bad e-mails!)
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  > From what I read, Flash's test suite was subpar to non-existent and people were afraid to touch anything in the codebase. If that's the case, Flash should be held up as a case study for the utility of robust tests. Because the amount of refactoring needed to make it fit the mobile world was significant, and if the codebase was fragile because of lack of tests, that refactoring may have proved expensive enough to kill the whole technology stack.

scarface74 7y ago

Adobe claimed that it was Apple’s fault that Flash didn’t run on the original iPhone. But even if Apple has allowed it. Adobe still wouldn’t have been able to do it. When Adobe finally did make it to Android, it required a gig of RAM and a 1Ghz processor. The original iPhone had 256MB of RAM and a 400Mhz processor. An iPhone with those specs didn’t come out until 2011. One of the big selling points of the Motorola Xoom was that it would run Flash. Adobe was six months late leaving the Xoom in the embarrassing position that you couldn’t view its Flash enable home page from the device for at least the first six months.

tinus_hn 7y ago
Flash on mobile was always going to be shit because it was built without mobile in mind. It doesn’t support touch, it doesn’t make controls big enough to be usable by touch and it doesn’t implement the behavior people expect on a touch device. Just running the plugin on a phone isn’t the hard part.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Not even referring to the interface. Adobe couldn’t get Flash performance, memory footprint or energy usage acceptable for mobile.
  - tinus_hn 7y ago
    If the other problems would have been solved, the hardware has improved so much the performance issues wouldn’t have been much of an issue anymore. A modern phones performance can compete with a low end pc.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      It was five years before an iPhone met the minimum requirements that Adobe gave for Flash on mobile. Even then, a VM based runtime per app would be more memory intensive and more battery intensive. iOS devices just this year have start coming with 3GB of RAM across the board. iOS was able to get away with less RAM precisely because all code ran natively. Apple is able to optimize its OS, compiler chain, and processor in sync. Not to mention that an even more stripped down version of the core OS with tighter constraints is running on the watch. Not even mentioning that the average $250 Android device is much lower specced than the average iPhone. It wasn’t until last year that even high end Android phones were matching the performance of an iPhone 6s (released in 2015) in single core performance.