3 ms·

> that does not incentivise good service as much I don't mean this in a bad way, but are you american? It does seem a very US viewpoint that goodwill etc. don'

> that does not incentivise good service as much I don't mean this in a bad way, but are you american? It does seem a very US viewpoint that goodwill etc. don't really exist (or matter? something else?), and that people need concrete incentives to treat others decently. Sure money's an motivator but perhaps a bigger one is to have a client treat you with decency. Sure money helps but to have a client just make you feel OK instead of crap, that would matter a lot more to most people. A big tip wouldn't negate bad attitude, even if it got staff to pretend to give a damn about you. Happened to read this yesterday, not tasteful but relevant <https://theoatmeal.com/comics/tipping_tooting> https://theoatmeal.com/comics/tipping_tooting>

oefrha 7y ago
Exactly. I’ve been to plenty of places where I’m charged an upfront price in a restaurant and the waiter/waitress is beyond polite to me. Edit: To be clear, in my experience I don’t find the service of an average U.S. waiter/waitress better than that of an average waiter/waitress in a country without a tipping culture.
- alistairSH 7y ago
  In my experience, the dining experience is worse in the US than other countries I have visited. I don't know if it's the tips, or something else, but American wait staff (at least at mid-priced restaurants) are always in my face asking if everything is ok. I much prefer the European norm - they take my order, deliver my food, and wait for me to ask if I need something else. I'm not dining someplace to make a new friend, I'm there to be social with my existing friends or family.
  - oefrha 7y ago
    > American wait staff (at least at mid-priced restaurants) are always in my face asking if everything is ok. Ah yes, now that you bring it up, I’m definitely not a fan of that either. Another way tipping can add toxicity is when a guest isn’t aware of the tipping culture / not sure how much to tip, ends up not tipping or undertipping, and in those cases sometimes you’d notice nasty looks or other forms of visible grumpiness. (Checks don’t always include recommended tip amounts.)
  - Mediterraneo10 7y ago
    > American wait staff (at least at mid-priced restaurants) are always in my face asking if everything is ok They do this because they were instructed by their manager to do this. And the reason that managers want it done, is because they want the customers to finish their food and quickly vacate the table, freeing it up for the next customers. Of course they won’t tell you outright to leave, but they think they can psychologically obtain the same effect just by bugging you and making it hard for you and your fellow diner(s) to have a peaceful, leisurely conversation. This can happen in Europe, too. At a couple of cafes in my town, as soon as you drink the last drop in your glass, the waitress will rush over and ask if you would like to order anything else. Owners do not like customers who occupy a table for a long time on just one single purchase.
    - alistairSH 7y ago
      Makes sense, but in my experience, this starts well before we've finished our meals. It's unpleasant enough that I generally avoid all mid-priced restaurants in the US. Instead, I either eat at less expensive ethnic joints (which tend to have limited table service) or higher-priced options.
remon 7y ago
I'm not no. I'm from Europe and I strongly disliking tipping as a concept because, as you point out, good services should be the default and any cost for that good service should be factored into the prices. That said, I flipped on this recently. The above utopian perspective simply doesn't align with reality anymore. Higher tips simply do result in on average better service (be it genuine or otherwise) and do incentivise waiters to work for the customer rather than their employer. The latter has value too. Which waiter do you want in a case where the owner of a dodgy establishment is asking their waiters to push the fish that's about to go bad? A waiter living off of tips from (return) customers or the one that just gets wage from that employer?

oefrha 7y ago

Exactly. I’ve been to plenty of places where I’m charged an upfront price in a restaurant and the waiter/waitress is beyond polite to me. Edit: To be clear, in my experience I don’t find the service of an average U.S. waiter/waitress better than that of an average waiter/waitress in a country without a tipping culture.

alistairSH 7y ago
In my experience, the dining experience is worse in the US than other countries I have visited. I don't know if it's the tips, or something else, but American wait staff (at least at mid-priced restaurants) are always in my face asking if everything is ok. I much prefer the European norm - they take my order, deliver my food, and wait for me to ask if I need something else. I'm not dining someplace to make a new friend, I'm there to be social with my existing friends or family.
- oefrha 7y ago
  > American wait staff (at least at mid-priced restaurants) are always in my face asking if everything is ok. Ah yes, now that you bring it up, I’m definitely not a fan of that either. Another way tipping can add toxicity is when a guest isn’t aware of the tipping culture / not sure how much to tip, ends up not tipping or undertipping, and in those cases sometimes you’d notice nasty looks or other forms of visible grumpiness. (Checks don’t always include recommended tip amounts.)
- Mediterraneo10 7y ago
  > American wait staff (at least at mid-priced restaurants) are always in my face asking if everything is ok They do this because they were instructed by their manager to do this. And the reason that managers want it done, is because they want the customers to finish their food and quickly vacate the table, freeing it up for the next customers. Of course they won’t tell you outright to leave, but they think they can psychologically obtain the same effect just by bugging you and making it hard for you and your fellow diner(s) to have a peaceful, leisurely conversation. This can happen in Europe, too. At a couple of cafes in my town, as soon as you drink the last drop in your glass, the waitress will rush over and ask if you would like to order anything else. Owners do not like customers who occupy a table for a long time on just one single purchase.
  - alistairSH 7y ago
    Makes sense, but in my experience, this starts well before we've finished our meals. It's unpleasant enough that I generally avoid all mid-priced restaurants in the US. Instead, I either eat at less expensive ethnic joints (which tend to have limited table service) or higher-priced options.

remon 7y ago

I'm not no. I'm from Europe and I strongly disliking tipping as a concept because, as you point out, good services should be the default and any cost for that good service should be factored into the prices. That said, I flipped on this recently. The above utopian perspective simply doesn't align with reality anymore. Higher tips simply do result in on average better service (be it genuine or otherwise) and do incentivise waiters to work for the customer rather than their employer. The latter has value too. Which waiter do you want in a case where the owner of a dodgy establishment is asking their waiters to push the fish that's about to go bad? A waiter living off of tips from (return) customers or the one that just gets wage from that employer?