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>Why there are people who welcome the rise of Chinese/CCP hegemony when they are actively looking to crush [2] "Western values" is beyond me. Perhaps it's beca

>Why there are people who welcome the rise of Chinese/CCP hegemony when they are actively looking to crush [2] "Western values" is beyond me. Perhaps it's because Big Tech is full of people who favor Chinese ideals over Western Enlightenment/American ideals, such as: -Group identity over individuality -Mass tracking/surveillance over privacy -Cenorship over free speech -State control/power over self defense

rhizome 7y ago
Those aren't non-Western ideals, lots of people in all countries strive to achieve power either via the imposition or in order to impose those qualities on their particular citizenry. tl;dr: your category error invalidates your entire point.
- 50656E6973 7y ago
  Using large geographic/national boundaries to generalize ideological categories is of course inherently erroneous to a degree; it's like the Zen Buddhist teaching of "a finger pointing at the moon". You seem to be getting hung up on the finger.
knzhou 7y ago
I have always wondered what people mean by "Chinese ideals". As a Chinese person myself, all 4 of your options are things that I oppose. I find myself consistently on the side of individuality, privacy, free speech, and self defense, when arguing against Americans that disagree. In fact I'm doing that right now in another thread in the process of defending yet another undefendable scoundrel, Facebook. Do you actually have something concrete in mind here, or have you instead considered that this is merely an example of calling the enemy tribe every bad name you can think of?
- 50656E6973 7y ago
  >Do you actually have something concrete in mind here Ideals codified in law. For example, the 1rst and 2nd Amendments. When generalizing with national boundaries, I of course do not mean to imply that literally everyone born within those imaginary lines thinks the same. Are there more specific categories I could use for these ideological classifications?
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    The Chinese constitution codifies similar things, it’s just less effective without rule of law.
  - empath75 7y ago
    I think it’s probably better to think of those enlightenment ideals as not something particularly western in nature as they were opposed violently for centuries by the entrenched power structures of the west.
    - donw 7y ago
      Pretty much every major social change has been violently opposed by pre-existing power structures, so I'm not sure that's a meaningful distinction. Is there another region outside of Europe that independently came up with a similar set of ideals as to what emerged from the Enlightenment[1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment
      - empath75 7y ago
        I’m not saying it didn’t originate in Europe. I am saying that most Europeans opposed it for centuries and it’s barely holding on in a lot of Europe even today. There’s nothing about the western mind or western culture that makes it more suited for institutions based around those principles. It was a long struggle to achieve them and it will be a long struggle to keep them. People of the west were no more well suited to them then the Chinese were especially well suited to invent or use gunpowder and paper money.
        donw 7y ago
        Ah, I suspect we're in violent agreement with each other. The Enlightenment certainly originated in the West (Western Europe), and while there are certain cultural aspects that are more compatible with Enlightenment ideals -- primus inter pares and such -- there is no reason why those ideals couldn't find a new home in some other region (Asia, Africa, etc.) Ideas are bound, not by borders, but by brains.
- donw 7y ago
  Not intending to speak for others, but I believe that the original poster intended "ideals as practiced by the CCP" (e.g., Cultural Revolution, Red Guards, etc), and it sounds to me like you are espousing the Chinese culture of the 1911 revolution, which does indeed support the rights of individuality, privacy, free speech, and self defense.
  - knzhou 7y ago
    If such deeply-held values can flip within 40 years, then what does it mean to say one set is "Eastern" and one is "Western"?
    - donw 7y ago
      > If such deeply-held values can flip within 40 years... I'm afraid you've lost me...? > ...what does it mean to say one set is "Eastern" and one is "Western"? I suspect that's more of a historical convention than anything else. Probably would have used the term "Enlightenment" rather than "Western", myself.
- novalis78 7y ago
  This is and has been more of an intellectual and ideological battle more than anything. The Founders had very little in common with ancient Greeks and Romans in terms of ‘tribe’ and ‘national boundary’. I am an immigrant as well and have these very same discussions that you have - awkwardly explaining to Americans the benefit of their constitution to themselves.
awinder 7y ago
“-Group identity over individuality” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss–Howe_generational_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss–Howe_generational_th...
CharlesColeman 7y ago
> Perhaps it's because Big Tech is full of people who favor Chinese ideals over Western Enlightenment/American ideals, such as: I think you're onto something, but some of your examples are off. I'd say Big Tech has a disproportionate share of people who: 1) believe they are part of the elite (by being able to command a high salary due to their skills) or aspire to join the elite (by winning the startup lottery), and therefore tend to take the perspective of elites against that of commoners, and 2) tend to focus far too much on economics, business, and technology. Those attitudes can interplay to result in attitudes that can be pretty favorable to the CCP (e.g. trade/business profits can't be sacrificed for moral or democratic considerations). However, I wouldn't go so far as saying those tech people "favor Chinese ideals over Western Enlightenment/American ideals."
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rhizome 7y ago

Those aren't non-Western ideals, lots of people in all countries strive to achieve power either via the imposition or in order to impose those qualities on their particular citizenry. tl;dr: your category error invalidates your entire point.

50656E6973 7y ago
Using large geographic/national boundaries to generalize ideological categories is of course inherently erroneous to a degree; it's like the Zen Buddhist teaching of "a finger pointing at the moon". You seem to be getting hung up on the finger.

knzhou 7y ago

I have always wondered what people mean by "Chinese ideals". As a Chinese person myself, all 4 of your options are things that I oppose. I find myself consistently on the side of individuality, privacy, free speech, and self defense, when arguing against Americans that disagree. In fact I'm doing that right now in another thread in the process of defending yet another undefendable scoundrel, Facebook. Do you actually have something concrete in mind here, or have you instead considered that this is merely an example of calling the enemy tribe every bad name you can think of?

50656E6973 7y ago
>Do you actually have something concrete in mind here Ideals codified in law. For example, the 1rst and 2nd Amendments. When generalizing with national boundaries, I of course do not mean to imply that literally everyone born within those imaginary lines thinks the same. Are there more specific categories I could use for these ideological classifications?
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  The Chinese constitution codifies similar things, it’s just less effective without rule of law.
- empath75 7y ago
  I think it’s probably better to think of those enlightenment ideals as not something particularly western in nature as they were opposed violently for centuries by the entrenched power structures of the west.
  - donw 7y ago
    Pretty much every major social change has been violently opposed by pre-existing power structures, so I'm not sure that's a meaningful distinction. Is there another region outside of Europe that independently came up with a similar set of ideals as to what emerged from the Enlightenment[1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment
    - empath75 7y ago
      I’m not saying it didn’t originate in Europe. I am saying that most Europeans opposed it for centuries and it’s barely holding on in a lot of Europe even today. There’s nothing about the western mind or western culture that makes it more suited for institutions based around those principles. It was a long struggle to achieve them and it will be a long struggle to keep them. People of the west were no more well suited to them then the Chinese were especially well suited to invent or use gunpowder and paper money.
      - donw 7y ago
        Ah, I suspect we're in violent agreement with each other. The Enlightenment certainly originated in the West (Western Europe), and while there are certain cultural aspects that are more compatible with Enlightenment ideals -- primus inter pares and such -- there is no reason why those ideals couldn't find a new home in some other region (Asia, Africa, etc.) Ideas are bound, not by borders, but by brains.
donw 7y ago
Not intending to speak for others, but I believe that the original poster intended "ideals as practiced by the CCP" (e.g., Cultural Revolution, Red Guards, etc), and it sounds to me like you are espousing the Chinese culture of the 1911 revolution, which does indeed support the rights of individuality, privacy, free speech, and self defense.
- knzhou 7y ago
  If such deeply-held values can flip within 40 years, then what does it mean to say one set is "Eastern" and one is "Western"?
  - donw 7y ago
    > If such deeply-held values can flip within 40 years... I'm afraid you've lost me...? > ...what does it mean to say one set is "Eastern" and one is "Western"? I suspect that's more of a historical convention than anything else. Probably would have used the term "Enlightenment" rather than "Western", myself.
novalis78 7y ago
This is and has been more of an intellectual and ideological battle more than anything. The Founders had very little in common with ancient Greeks and Romans in terms of ‘tribe’ and ‘national boundary’. I am an immigrant as well and have these very same discussions that you have - awkwardly explaining to Americans the benefit of their constitution to themselves.

awinder 7y ago

“-Group identity over individuality” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss–Howe_generational_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss–Howe_generational_th...

CharlesColeman 7y ago

> Perhaps it's because Big Tech is full of people who favor Chinese ideals over Western Enlightenment/American ideals, such as: I think you're onto something, but some of your examples are off. I'd say Big Tech has a disproportionate share of people who: 1) believe they are part of the elite (by being able to command a high salary due to their skills) or aspire to join the elite (by winning the startup lottery), and therefore tend to take the perspective of elites against that of commoners, and 2) tend to focus far too much on economics, business, and technology. Those attitudes can interplay to result in attitudes that can be pretty favorable to the CCP (e.g. trade/business profits can't be sacrificed for moral or democratic considerations). However, I wouldn't go so far as saying those tech people "favor Chinese ideals over Western Enlightenment/American ideals."

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