7 ms·

Yeah, some very bad things have happened. Not excusing that. But also things have worked out really really well for a lot of countries the US has imposed its wi

by Canada 7y ago

Yeah, some very bad things have happened. Not excusing that. But also things have worked out really really well for a lot of countries the US has imposed its will on. Countries it went to war with and could have utterly raped and plundered without resistance or really any objection. You think China is going to do better? Will it be more fair? The regime in China is willing to hurt anyone who even debates its track record. Will China even allow its failures and excesses to be documented on Wikipedia? Or will it just censor it all, and disappear anyone who complains?

yourbandsucks 7y ago
China's record for the last 40 years is lifting billions of people out of poverty while we stomped around bombing places and killing millions in the name of exporting our awesome values. Oh, and our infra is falling apart compared to theirs while we spend all our money on bombs. Let's make a compromise -- China can run their country and we can run ours. Is that so controversial?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Benjammer 7y ago
  >China can run their country and we can run ours Considering their traditional political philosophy doesn't even really acknowledge the concept of nation-states and international borders, no. Because "run their country" means "rule the world however we fucking want."
  - yourbandsucks 7y ago
    Can we check the record? Post-WW2? Countries the US has invaded THAT BORDER CHINA: 2 Countries China has invaded, period: < 2 We have them 80% surrounded at sea between Korea, Japan, Taiwan and the Phillipines. People are really upset that they still control former-imperial-possession HK and have a remaining outlet. And they're the imperialists?
    - surge 7y ago
      Google 9 dash line Google belt and road initiative People are upset that China isn't honoring their agreement and are dismantling the democratic system and free speech HK is enjoying now, these are universal human rights. Rather than China learning from what made HK so prosperous, as they were for a while, the new leadership is heading back towards the old Maoism policies that lead to the massive starvation and famine and lost generation. Any foreigner living in China is treated terribly, can't do basic things, can't become a citizen, and is constantly checked in on or followed by police. They keep all their citizens in a social credit system, they send religious minorities to labor and reeducation camps, harvest organs from them, etc. Not surprising from a country that teaches about and speaks of Hitler in a positive light, you can't really criticize Hitler without criticizing one's own self and past policies. The US at least admits the things it has done that were anything close to that were wrong as they oppose our own values. To say nothing of Taiwan, an independent country with its own government and system that China still claims is part of their domain, rather than simply accept reality. It has become imperialistically aggressive towards Taiwan and demands airlines and hotels, media, sporting events etc not show the Taiwanese flag, refer to it by its name, or do anything that indicates the reality that exists now, which is that Taiwan is its own separate country and an example of what would have happened if the democracy had taken root in China, where you'd still have free practice of religion and Chinese values, a strong economy, good health care system, free access to information, etc. If you want an example of Chinese imperialism, look no further than Taiwan, the only reason they haven't invaded Taiwan is because they know they can't without serious consequences. The old wars were at least excused as staving off invading forces that were seeking eliminate democracy. South Korea is its own country now, they have democracy, look at the DPRK versus SK, we were literally fighting evil and SK is better off for it. Same for the other countries. We're pretty crappy at imperialism if that's the goal since none of those countries are part of any kind of empire and we barely have any influence over them. Thankfully Vietnam didn't end up like DPRK and adopted capitalism at least or a much less dictatorial version of communism. At least in the US, you're allowed to read about the ills of imperialism and criticism of past and current government actions. In China, you can't even compare the leader to a cartoon character without serious consequences. If the government is doing something wrong, you as a citizen wouldn't know about it and wouldn't be allowed to speak publicly about it, much less organize a protest against it.
- president 7y ago
  You don't get points on your track record for lifting people out of poverty when you're the one who put them there in the first place.
  - scilro 7y ago
    There are still Chinese people today who remember the pain of the Cultural Revolution. This is a history that isn't denied & only lightly censored if at all. Yet, they don't begrudge Mao for it. Probably because they realize that without having united as a country, and without having built that industrial base (as painful as that was), the good years they're seeing today would never have happened.
- sneak 7y ago
  Let's not forget that time just before your carefully chosen "40 years" where they starved 50 million people due to central planning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#Famine_deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#Famine_deat...
  - oitudgiyters 7y ago
    Mao tried to have Deng killed, and Xi was sent to a re-education camp during that time. I’m not sure “they” is the correct term here.
    - president 7y ago
      I think OP meant "they" in reference to the CCP kleptocracy more broadly
      - yourbandsucks 7y ago
        But you and they are calling maoism and dengism "basically the same thing". That's about half a degree from calling communism and capitalism the same thing. With Chinese characteristics for both, of course. Anybody who knew China would know exactly why I picked 40 years. It's 2 very different governments. So I get that you'd consider them "the enemy" in both cases but could this be a teachable moment? How has America typically done when we wade into shit we don't understand, perfectly convinced that we're the good guys? How has it typically worked out for the 'liberated'?
        president 7y ago
        We get it, you hate the US and love China.
        yourbandsucks 7y ago
        Lots of great people in both places.
- DeonPenny 7y ago
  I feel like comments like this are why china is the way it is.
- DeonPenny 7y ago
  They put those people in poverty in the first place during the cultural revolution.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
scilro 7y ago
>You think China is going to do better? Well... why wouldn't they? China since the time of Deng has been acutely aware of the risk of becoming an imperialist power[1]. Even if they have arguably crossed that line at some points (the South China Sea...), they're clearly attempting to take a markedly alternative path to becoming a superpower. I think the media tends to portray individuals in the Chinese government as uniquely sinister and amoral, and the assumption is if given the opportunity, they'll commit all the same crimes the West did. But I find this to be quite a cynical view. [1] https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/1165122628757024768 https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/1165122628757024768
- Canada 7y ago
  Is it cynical? And is it's path really that different to the one taken by the US? The US didn't project power on a large scale until it became a major economic power and involvement in major military conflict drew there.
- Kalium 7y ago
  The Chinese government has already re-created concentration camps for religious and ethnic minorities. We might stand to benefit by considering if those with cynical views might have, in this case, found a measure of wisdom.
- swagasaurus-rex 7y ago
  > I think the media tends to portray individuals in the Chinese government as uniquely sinister and amoral Actually, yes, easy to agree with this statement. Anybody who isn't paid by a government considers all governments as sinister and amoral, nothing unique about it.

by Canada 7y ago

yourbandsucks 7y ago

China's record for the last 40 years is lifting billions of people out of poverty while we stomped around bombing places and killing millions in the name of exporting our awesome values. Oh, and our infra is falling apart compared to theirs while we spend all our money on bombs. Let's make a compromise -- China can run their country and we can run ours. Is that so controversial?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Benjammer 7y ago
>China can run their country and we can run ours Considering their traditional political philosophy doesn't even really acknowledge the concept of nation-states and international borders, no. Because "run their country" means "rule the world however we fucking want."
- yourbandsucks 7y ago
  Can we check the record? Post-WW2? Countries the US has invaded THAT BORDER CHINA: 2 Countries China has invaded, period: < 2 We have them 80% surrounded at sea between Korea, Japan, Taiwan and the Phillipines. People are really upset that they still control former-imperial-possession HK and have a remaining outlet. And they're the imperialists?
  - surge 7y ago
    Google 9 dash line Google belt and road initiative People are upset that China isn't honoring their agreement and are dismantling the democratic system and free speech HK is enjoying now, these are universal human rights. Rather than China learning from what made HK so prosperous, as they were for a while, the new leadership is heading back towards the old Maoism policies that lead to the massive starvation and famine and lost generation. Any foreigner living in China is treated terribly, can't do basic things, can't become a citizen, and is constantly checked in on or followed by police. They keep all their citizens in a social credit system, they send religious minorities to labor and reeducation camps, harvest organs from them, etc. Not surprising from a country that teaches about and speaks of Hitler in a positive light, you can't really criticize Hitler without criticizing one's own self and past policies. The US at least admits the things it has done that were anything close to that were wrong as they oppose our own values. To say nothing of Taiwan, an independent country with its own government and system that China still claims is part of their domain, rather than simply accept reality. It has become imperialistically aggressive towards Taiwan and demands airlines and hotels, media, sporting events etc not show the Taiwanese flag, refer to it by its name, or do anything that indicates the reality that exists now, which is that Taiwan is its own separate country and an example of what would have happened if the democracy had taken root in China, where you'd still have free practice of religion and Chinese values, a strong economy, good health care system, free access to information, etc. If you want an example of Chinese imperialism, look no further than Taiwan, the only reason they haven't invaded Taiwan is because they know they can't without serious consequences. The old wars were at least excused as staving off invading forces that were seeking eliminate democracy. South Korea is its own country now, they have democracy, look at the DPRK versus SK, we were literally fighting evil and SK is better off for it. Same for the other countries. We're pretty crappy at imperialism if that's the goal since none of those countries are part of any kind of empire and we barely have any influence over them. Thankfully Vietnam didn't end up like DPRK and adopted capitalism at least or a much less dictatorial version of communism. At least in the US, you're allowed to read about the ills of imperialism and criticism of past and current government actions. In China, you can't even compare the leader to a cartoon character without serious consequences. If the government is doing something wrong, you as a citizen wouldn't know about it and wouldn't be allowed to speak publicly about it, much less organize a protest against it.
president 7y ago
You don't get points on your track record for lifting people out of poverty when you're the one who put them there in the first place.
- scilro 7y ago
  There are still Chinese people today who remember the pain of the Cultural Revolution. This is a history that isn't denied & only lightly censored if at all. Yet, they don't begrudge Mao for it. Probably because they realize that without having united as a country, and without having built that industrial base (as painful as that was), the good years they're seeing today would never have happened.
sneak 7y ago
Let's not forget that time just before your carefully chosen "40 years" where they starved 50 million people due to central planning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#Famine_deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#Famine_deat...
- oitudgiyters 7y ago
  Mao tried to have Deng killed, and Xi was sent to a re-education camp during that time. I’m not sure “they” is the correct term here.
  - president 7y ago
    I think OP meant "they" in reference to the CCP kleptocracy more broadly
    - yourbandsucks 7y ago
      But you and they are calling maoism and dengism "basically the same thing". That's about half a degree from calling communism and capitalism the same thing. With Chinese characteristics for both, of course. Anybody who knew China would know exactly why I picked 40 years. It's 2 very different governments. So I get that you'd consider them "the enemy" in both cases but could this be a teachable moment? How has America typically done when we wade into shit we don't understand, perfectly convinced that we're the good guys? How has it typically worked out for the 'liberated'?
      - president 7y ago
        We get it, you hate the US and love China.
        yourbandsucks 7y ago
        Lots of great people in both places.
DeonPenny 7y ago
I feel like comments like this are why china is the way it is.
DeonPenny 7y ago
They put those people in poverty in the first place during the cultural revolution.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

scilro 7y ago

>You think China is going to do better? Well... why wouldn't they? China since the time of Deng has been acutely aware of the risk of becoming an imperialist power[1]. Even if they have arguably crossed that line at some points (the South China Sea...), they're clearly attempting to take a markedly alternative path to becoming a superpower. I think the media tends to portray individuals in the Chinese government as uniquely sinister and amoral, and the assumption is if given the opportunity, they'll commit all the same crimes the West did. But I find this to be quite a cynical view. [1] https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/1165122628757024768 https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/1165122628757024768

Canada 7y ago
Is it cynical? And is it's path really that different to the one taken by the US? The US didn't project power on a large scale until it became a major economic power and involvement in major military conflict drew there.
Kalium 7y ago
The Chinese government has already re-created concentration camps for religious and ethnic minorities. We might stand to benefit by considering if those with cynical views might have, in this case, found a measure of wisdom.
swagasaurus-rex 7y ago
> I think the media tends to portray individuals in the Chinese government as uniquely sinister and amoral Actually, yes, easy to agree with this statement. Anybody who isn't paid by a government considers all governments as sinister and amoral, nothing unique about it.