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> Apple, if you want developers to love your platform — and you should, because good developers are your lifeblood — and if you don’t want them to flee for othe

> Apple, if you want developers to love your platform — and you should, because good developers are your lifeblood — and if you don’t want them to flee for other platforms — and you should be worried about that, because the web is everywhere and Microsoft is coming for you — then you need to take this seriously. Adopt the mentality that has served other frameworks and languages so well: If it isn’t documented, it isn’t done. Apple has enough rabid supporters, they can lose the occasional developer to bad docs. Apple doesn't care or need to care. They are arrogant that way. Also, what other platforms? Android? A fair portion of iOS devs are also already Android devs. Look, this is just going to fall on deaf ears. Apple isn't listening. Their machine is output only.

sillysaurusx 7y ago
Look, this is just going to fall on deaf ears. Apple isn't listening. Their machine is output only. That's not really true. Apple is active on Twitter and actively reaches out to correct problems. For example, when I complained that their Xcode beta hangs when you open a large file, an Xcode dev reached out to me and asked for a repro case. https://twitter.com/theshawwn/status/1175197286349119490 https://twitter.com/theshawwn/status/1175197286349119490 (I'm not an Apple fanboy, just a dev.)
- AlexandrB 7y ago
  Isn't that the exception that proves the rule though? Why is Twitter the most effective way to get developer support from Apple as opposed to their own website?
  - 52-6F-62 7y ago
    Yeah. As much as I appreciate their responsiveness on Twitter, it doesn't much help those of us who are not on Twitter. (Tangential rant: I dislike how it seems like the most effective path for anything resembling customer service from many companies is to call them out on Twitter alone. I've written emails to some companies over months to no single response—but to look on their Twitter you'll see an answer within hours, or minutes.)
    - dnautics 7y ago
      That shouldn't be surprising as Twitter is a public forum, so there's more accountability.
      - 52-6F-62 7y ago
        I'm not surprised. I'm a bit miffed, though. We shouldn't have to shame companies to get a bit of customer service—let alone a response to an email.
    - revscat 7y ago
      I get what you're saying -- that companies should be internally driven to address concerns such as yours -- but I'm starting to shift away from that thinking. We're social apes. We evolved in groups, and respond to group pressures. Responding to public shaming is perhaps a more natural state of things than what we tend to expect. It certainly seems more effective.
      - 52-6F-62 7y ago
        It's the dirty road, though. In capitalism the market is supposed to correct for bad acting like poor customer service. Instead it's a public haranguing like putting someone in the stocks, except in exponentially less response time.
        sosborn 7y ago
        > In capitalism the market is supposed to correct for bad acting like poor customer service. That only works when the public knows that the customer service experience is poor. I'm no fan of Twitter, but putting this stuff in the open is incredible effective for this reason.
    - Ensorceled 7y ago
      Yes, pretty much every company is this way. I often get a response, support ticket and solution via Twitter before my email/webform request is even processed.
  - Rebelgecko 7y ago
    Reminds me of this post from a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21324798 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21324798 tl;dr: Recent performance improvements in the Mac version of Firefox are dependent on an undocumented feature of an API that was tweeted out by someone from Apple
- _jal 7y ago
  Taking bug reports on Twitter is nice, but not comparable to improving documentation. One is a developer reaching out (costs: developer time, management involvement: granting permission). The other is a change in project plans, staffing, workflow and timelines (costs: large, management involvement: massive).
  - w0utert 7y ago
    >> One is a developer reaching out (costs: developer time, management involvement: granting permission). The other is a change in project plans, staffing, workflow and timelines (costs: large, management involvement: massive). I think it's a pretty safe bet to expect, for this reason alone, that the documentation quality of things like SwiftUI will improve over time. It seems pretty obvious they directed all their efforts to releasing SwiftUI within their iOS 13 release window, which likely meant the API only 'stabilized' very late in the process and it would be impossible to spend time and resources documenting it, at least not without postponing the release (not an option). Generally speaking, in my experience all of the 'established' Apple API's have pretty good documentation. SwiftUI seems rushed, and it would probably been better if they waited until iOS 14 and release it along with documentation. I'm not definding Apple here, but I think the article is overstating how bad their documentation is based on one brand-new API that probably wasn't fully cooked for release to begin with.
- mpweiher 7y ago
  As far as I can tell, this is individual developers reaching out, possibly at risk violating company policy. They do it anyway, and should be commended, but this isn't Apple per se.
scarface74 7y ago
Most developers who are making apps for iOS are working for companies that only care about money. There is no fanaticism about it. If developers optimized for working on platforms they liked, no one would write console games.
- greggman2 7y ago
  Um, hmmm, that is exactly the opposite of my experience writing console games. Console game dev is fun because you can push the machine to the limit and know every technique you use will work across all devices since they are all the same (or close enough). PC/Mobile dev is hell compared to that. I worked at a company that did mostly console, shipped one PC game, vowed never again as the support costs were several orders of magnitude higher than console.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Game developers are some of the lowest paid, most highly exploited developers out their.
WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
It's really funny to think about cyclical stuff and see how Blackberry used to treat their developers like shit (with stupid signing keys and stuff) and just look at Apple falling into the same trap.
- craydandy 7y ago
  And this reminds me of the documentation quality of Symbian around 2005-2007. I would highly recommend the author of the article the check it out, before lamenting Apple's documentation.
  - nullandvoid 7y ago
    I mean it's a discounted OS is it really a comparison? We're talking about one of the biggest platforms in the world here with unlimited money to throw at this problem there is no excuse
    - moron4hire 7y ago
      Seriously, Apple is one of the richest companies in the world (I don't remember if it's still The Richest or not). Similarly, Google's documentation is pretty bad, considering just how ludicrously rich they are. They could afford to hire entire teams whose only jobs were to write documentation and it would barely make a blip in their bottom lines. In contrast, I've always found Microsoft's documentation to be incredible. It can often be hard to find the right thing (though that has getting better, though that might be just my growing experience on how to find things), but they put real, actual effort into documentation. Also, Microsoft has a very strong "corporate style guide" for API design. Every MS API within their major silos is built exactly the same way as every other API. Once you've had some experience with them, it's easy to figure out the others. I find Android to be down-right schizophrenic in comparison. It's one of the many reasons I continue to focus on MS platforms for my work. It's been 20 years since they were the hostile "kill everything that moves" company that people lament.
      - mikestew 7y ago
gatherhunterer 7y ago
You criticize their rabid fans but aren’t you just as irrational? You have made claims that are so bizarre they cannot be supported by evidence. You are making emotional attacks that sound like someone talking about their high school bully. I don’t know how you convinced yourself that Apple is more interested in being aloof than in making changes that would help them make money but that belief is just as ridiculous as the belief that they are altruistic. “Apple” has become a trigger word for many people. It is strange that one would allow something they claim to dislike to have such a profound impact on them that it compromises their reasoning.
- chooseaname 7y ago
  Apple has a very long and very known history of ignoring problems until they can't. They'll get away with terrible/missing docs until they can't. > You are making emotional attacks... Am I?
- Dylan16807 7y ago
  > You have made claims that are so bizarre they cannot be supported by evidence. I, uh, example please? "Apple doesn't need to care" is in no way bizarre.
- computerex 7y ago
  https://www.engadget.com/2010/06/24/apple-responds-over-iphone-4-reception-issues-youre-holding-th https://www.engadget.com/2010/06/24/apple-responds-over-ipho... https://9to5mac.com/2019/02/11/italian-apple-homepage-to-add-iphone-battery-throttling-advisory/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/02/11/italian-apple-homepage-to-add... https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/28/16827248/apple-iphone-battery-replacement-price-slow-down-apology https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/28/16827248/apple-iphone-ba... https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3032188/apple-faces-class-action-lawsuit-over-borked-macbook-keyboards https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3032188/apple-face... These is just a very small subset of incidents with Apple where Apple failed to right their wrongs and was ultimately forced to do so by public and or legal pressure. Apple as a company is known for ignoring feedback altogether.
  - 7y ago

sillysaurusx 7y ago

Look, this is just going to fall on deaf ears. Apple isn't listening. Their machine is output only. That's not really true. Apple is active on Twitter and actively reaches out to correct problems. For example, when I complained that their Xcode beta hangs when you open a large file, an Xcode dev reached out to me and asked for a repro case. https://twitter.com/theshawwn/status/1175197286349119490 https://twitter.com/theshawwn/status/1175197286349119490 (I'm not an Apple fanboy, just a dev.)

AlexandrB 7y ago
Isn't that the exception that proves the rule though? Why is Twitter the most effective way to get developer support from Apple as opposed to their own website?
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  Yeah. As much as I appreciate their responsiveness on Twitter, it doesn't much help those of us who are not on Twitter. (Tangential rant: I dislike how it seems like the most effective path for anything resembling customer service from many companies is to call them out on Twitter alone. I've written emails to some companies over months to no single response—but to look on their Twitter you'll see an answer within hours, or minutes.)
  - dnautics 7y ago
    That shouldn't be surprising as Twitter is a public forum, so there's more accountability.
    - 52-6F-62 7y ago
      I'm not surprised. I'm a bit miffed, though. We shouldn't have to shame companies to get a bit of customer service—let alone a response to an email.
  - revscat 7y ago
    I get what you're saying -- that companies should be internally driven to address concerns such as yours -- but I'm starting to shift away from that thinking. We're social apes. We evolved in groups, and respond to group pressures. Responding to public shaming is perhaps a more natural state of things than what we tend to expect. It certainly seems more effective.
    - 52-6F-62 7y ago
      It's the dirty road, though. In capitalism the market is supposed to correct for bad acting like poor customer service. Instead it's a public haranguing like putting someone in the stocks, except in exponentially less response time.
      - sosborn 7y ago
        > In capitalism the market is supposed to correct for bad acting like poor customer service. That only works when the public knows that the customer service experience is poor. I'm no fan of Twitter, but putting this stuff in the open is incredible effective for this reason.
  - Ensorceled 7y ago
    Yes, pretty much every company is this way. I often get a response, support ticket and solution via Twitter before my email/webform request is even processed.
- Rebelgecko 7y ago
  Reminds me of this post from a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21324798 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21324798 tl;dr: Recent performance improvements in the Mac version of Firefox are dependent on an undocumented feature of an API that was tweeted out by someone from Apple
_jal 7y ago
Taking bug reports on Twitter is nice, but not comparable to improving documentation. One is a developer reaching out (costs: developer time, management involvement: granting permission). The other is a change in project plans, staffing, workflow and timelines (costs: large, management involvement: massive).
- w0utert 7y ago
  >> One is a developer reaching out (costs: developer time, management involvement: granting permission). The other is a change in project plans, staffing, workflow and timelines (costs: large, management involvement: massive). I think it's a pretty safe bet to expect, for this reason alone, that the documentation quality of things like SwiftUI will improve over time. It seems pretty obvious they directed all their efforts to releasing SwiftUI within their iOS 13 release window, which likely meant the API only 'stabilized' very late in the process and it would be impossible to spend time and resources documenting it, at least not without postponing the release (not an option). Generally speaking, in my experience all of the 'established' Apple API's have pretty good documentation. SwiftUI seems rushed, and it would probably been better if they waited until iOS 14 and release it along with documentation. I'm not definding Apple here, but I think the article is overstating how bad their documentation is based on one brand-new API that probably wasn't fully cooked for release to begin with.
mpweiher 7y ago
As far as I can tell, this is individual developers reaching out, possibly at risk violating company policy. They do it anyway, and should be commended, but this isn't Apple per se.

scarface74 7y ago

Most developers who are making apps for iOS are working for companies that only care about money. There is no fanaticism about it. If developers optimized for working on platforms they liked, no one would write console games.

greggman2 7y ago
Um, hmmm, that is exactly the opposite of my experience writing console games. Console game dev is fun because you can push the machine to the limit and know every technique you use will work across all devices since they are all the same (or close enough). PC/Mobile dev is hell compared to that. I worked at a company that did mostly console, shipped one PC game, vowed never again as the support costs were several orders of magnitude higher than console.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Game developers are some of the lowest paid, most highly exploited developers out their.

WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago

It's really funny to think about cyclical stuff and see how Blackberry used to treat their developers like shit (with stupid signing keys and stuff) and just look at Apple falling into the same trap.

craydandy 7y ago
And this reminds me of the documentation quality of Symbian around 2005-2007. I would highly recommend the author of the article the check it out, before lamenting Apple's documentation.
- nullandvoid 7y ago
  I mean it's a discounted OS is it really a comparison? We're talking about one of the biggest platforms in the world here with unlimited money to throw at this problem there is no excuse
  - moron4hire 7y ago
    Seriously, Apple is one of the richest companies in the world (I don't remember if it's still The Richest or not). Similarly, Google's documentation is pretty bad, considering just how ludicrously rich they are. They could afford to hire entire teams whose only jobs were to write documentation and it would barely make a blip in their bottom lines. In contrast, I've always found Microsoft's documentation to be incredible. It can often be hard to find the right thing (though that has getting better, though that might be just my growing experience on how to find things), but they put real, actual effort into documentation. Also, Microsoft has a very strong "corporate style guide" for API design. Every MS API within their major silos is built exactly the same way as every other API. Once you've had some experience with them, it's easy to figure out the others. I find Android to be down-right schizophrenic in comparison. It's one of the many reasons I continue to focus on MS platforms for my work. It's been 20 years since they were the hostile "kill everything that moves" company that people lament.
    - mikestew 7y ago

gatherhunterer 7y ago

You criticize their rabid fans but aren’t you just as irrational? You have made claims that are so bizarre they cannot be supported by evidence. You are making emotional attacks that sound like someone talking about their high school bully. I don’t know how you convinced yourself that Apple is more interested in being aloof than in making changes that would help them make money but that belief is just as ridiculous as the belief that they are altruistic. “Apple” has become a trigger word for many people. It is strange that one would allow something they claim to dislike to have such a profound impact on them that it compromises their reasoning.

chooseaname 7y ago
Apple has a very long and very known history of ignoring problems until they can't. They'll get away with terrible/missing docs until they can't. > You are making emotional attacks... Am I?
Dylan16807 7y ago
> You have made claims that are so bizarre they cannot be supported by evidence. I, uh, example please? "Apple doesn't need to care" is in no way bizarre.
computerex 7y ago
https://www.engadget.com/2010/06/24/apple-responds-over-iphone-4-reception-issues-youre-holding-th https://www.engadget.com/2010/06/24/apple-responds-over-ipho... https://9to5mac.com/2019/02/11/italian-apple-homepage-to-add-iphone-battery-throttling-advisory/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/02/11/italian-apple-homepage-to-add... https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/28/16827248/apple-iphone-battery-replacement-price-slow-down-apology https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/28/16827248/apple-iphone-ba... https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3032188/apple-faces-class-action-lawsuit-over-borked-macbook-keyboards https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3032188/apple-face... These is just a very small subset of incidents with Apple where Apple failed to right their wrongs and was ultimately forced to do so by public and or legal pressure. Apple as a company is known for ignoring feedback altogether.
- 7y ago