19 ms·

The Sad Saga of Purism and the Librem 5

251 points by hlandau 7y ago

mlthoughts2018 7y ago
It gives me a 502 bad gateway error if (and only if) I try to access it when connected to vpn.
- ncmncm 7y ago
  Perhaps ironically, I get that error when using the Librem VPN. I got through to parts 1 and 2 a short time ago, but cannot see part 3 -- nor parts 1 and 2, now.
- jaylittle 7y ago
  Should be resolved, sorry ;)
whydoyoucare 7y ago
Is it just me or is everyone hitting a 502 (Bad Gateway) error?
- jaylittle 7y ago
  Should be resolved, sorry ;)
Kenji 7y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20191027144805/https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-purism-and-the-librem-5-part-1 https://web.archive.org/web/20191027144805/https://jaylittle...
- teddyh 7y ago
  Part 2: https://web.archive.org/web/20191027153729/https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-purism-and-the-librem-5-part-2 https://web.archive.org/web/20191027153729/https://jaylittle... Part 3: https://web.archive.org/web/20191027165020/https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-purism-and-the-librem-5-part-3 https://web.archive.org/web/20191027165020/https://jaylittle...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kiba 7y ago
it has now been made clear that the phone will have to use proprietary firmware blobs for a variety of onboard devices. They worked with the FSF to make it certified. To my understanding, it's basically an impossible tasking to write open source firmware, not if you want to throw additional million of dollars(this is just a guess). The compromise is that you basically cannot update those binary blobs.
- mike-cardwell 7y ago
  It was always my understanding that some of the hardware would not be open, but that hardware would be sufficiently isolated from the core of the device.
  - whydoyoucare 7y ago
    I think that is the key design aspect, since as other user stated, it is extremely difficult to get open source firmware unless you are willing to spend a lot of $$. It is indeed a sad state for Purism 5 to be in.
  - herogreen 7y ago
    Agreed, having modems not sharing memory with the CPU would already be a big progress.
    - mondoshawan 7y ago
      Sadly, the modems are on PCIe, so this means they are sharing memory and address space with the host iMX8.
      - djsumdog 7y ago
        Yea, if feels like if you wanted that kind of isolation, you'd actually need a second SoC on there with its own memory and some kind of communication back to the main processor.
      - V4ASt2 7y ago
voltagex_ 7y ago
From the other parts, it sounds like you might not have to worry about firmware at all - you won't get a phone.
yepthatsreality 7y ago
I have also been wondering about the lack of shipment and post regarding it. Some of these issues seem like they should have had a plan before announcing models. I’m still hopeful. And for the record it looks like Librem has indicated some of the reasons Aspen and Birch models aren’t shipped to customers in a recent blog post (memory, performance, and battery issues). [0] [0] https://puri.sm/posts/supplying-the-demand/ https://puri.sm/posts/supplying-the-demand/
frittig 7y ago
I just get a 502 error
- jaylittle 7y ago
  Should be resolved, sorry ;)
mondoshawan 7y ago
There have been some interesting technical developments with regard to the points Jay is making. For one, FCC certification should only be necessary for the baseboard -- the SOM and PCIe devices should carry their own certification. The fact that they are supposedly sending these out without certs for the baseboard is hugely concerning -- and illegal. If anything, this is the core reason why nothing has left their hands yet. What else is concerning is that they are shipping the SOM without schematics or documentation -- even the dev units have no details on their construction. For reference, Purism only made the baseboard and mechanicals -- the actual SOC and RAM are on a module made by Elecom. I asked about this in their matrix channels and the best answer I could get was "it will be made open" -- a tall order, given the past history of Elecom keeping their designs close to their chest. This is most likely the core reason why their thermal and RAM performance sucks -- the community can't get in there to help. Note that they aren't even running the RAM at full speed -- that's not something you can easily change without re-generating the training programs, and locking that in without proper burn-in or huge amounts of QA to validate is going to likely be the biggest hurdle they will face. Especially given the requirement that the program not be updated. Source: built and shipped SOMs using the i.MX8MQ in the past and still supporting them now: RAM training is a huge problem.
- awinter-py 7y ago
  what is RAM training? I googled this but google thinks 'training' means 'documentation' apparently
  - nsomaru 7y ago
    It seems that memory is “trained” on boot — the system does POST and checks that critical hardware is responding as expected. PC motherboards have some settings to adjust timing for enthusiasts, but I’m not sure that that’s a trend or even desirable in consumer electronics. So these expected values are probably “burnt in” to the design and difficult to change. Maybe Purism has a way to do this? I am not an expert!
    - mondoshawan 7y ago
RandomBacon 7y ago
I don't think they're trying to be malicious, I just think that they have piss-poor public relations and are digging themselves into a bigger hole. I understand that they're worfully behind schedule and that some people are mad, but... I wish people would just let them focus on building the phone rather than hounding them which might cause them to cut even more corners and result in a worse product. I paid them $600 or whatever two years ago, and I say let them keep building. It's okay to be critical, but it seems like some people are bullying/trolling. Even in HN threads from months ago before shipping was even an issue.
- mondoshawan 7y ago
  When you've been doing development in consumer tech, some of these missteps are glaringly obvious and having proper engineering in place from the start would have avoided much of the problem. I, too, am a backer and keep hope alive, but I, too, am a hardware developer and half the things they are saying don't jive with the facts, or are omissions critical to the product's success (RAM timing, FCC certification, etc). Have to say, I'm a bit jaded now, but if it comes out, it comes out, and I'll be happy regardless. Doesn't mean I'm going to keep my trap shut when something is fishy, though. My big concern right now is that they're pushing hard to release before things are ready, and with this SOC, that can easily be a death knell for the product they release.
  - RandomBacon 7y ago
    > My big concern right now is that they're pushing hard to release before things are ready Because people keep hounding them! Do you do your best work when people keep interupting you asking when it'll be ready? You would still complete your task if people weren't interupting you, right? The interuptions might cause you to say 'fuck it' and just ship just to get it over with, even though you wanted to spend 10% or whatever more time to make it 50% better. That's what I'm getting at.
    - mondoshawan 7y ago
      Usually you dont bypass engineering practices because customers are hounding you. The best way is to answer, demonstrate, and improve customer relations by showing them the facts. Answer a critic and you will better improve your relations. Customers can and do wait when the waiting is warranted. Thus far, Purism has been omitting facts such as RAM performance, and sidestepping directed questions. These don't instill confidence in customers for an "open" company. Moreover, hardware cannot be shipped this way. Schedules and the needs of the hardware dictate the control of the schedule. You literally cannot ship a PCB until regulatory requirements are satisfied and the boards are assembled.
teddyh 7y ago
Part 3 quotes /u/whiteinge on reddit¹: Let's assume the company is in jeopardy. Let's assume the project is over-promised and will be late and under-deliver. Let's assume the CEO is a fuckup and the Marketing Director is a liar. None of that is as bad as NO smartphone alternative to Google and Apple, let alone an open and privacy-focused alternative. I'm a Linux user and I very much want a Linux phone. And there has been so, so many false starts and near misses over almost a decade. My patience and goodwill for Purism and the Librem 5 is effectively infinite. It's not over until they shutter the doors or can the project. Until that happens I will continue to hope they limp over that finish line no matter what. 1. https://www.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/dm2smy/is_the_librem_5_being_targeted_in_a_viral_media/f54gaur/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/dm2smy/is_the_libre...
- badrabbit 7y ago
  Well said,if only someone throwed money at purism like they did with signal.
  - akimball 7y ago
    Indeed, what good is signal on your phone, when your phone is out of your control?
- jdjdjjsjs 7y ago
  This doesn't make sense to me. If all those things about the company and its execs are true they are almost certainly not gonna deliver the alternative you are clamoring for. In the meanwhile your money is sitting with them instead of a team that actually might
  - robto 7y ago
    Except that they are making progress. They've upstreamed some import work to the kernal, they've contributed to phosh and libhandy. They clearly aren't working as fast as they (or many others) would like, but they are working. And not many other people are. I also support hardware projects like ZeroPhone, Pine Phone, and the Dragonbox Pyra and software projects like Plasma Mobile. When I saw Purism articulate a vision for what a phone could be I had to support them too. I wish they collaborated and communicated better, and I wish they had made some different decisions regarding the stack, but at the end of the day they are slowly moving the ball forward. But when I gave them $600 I did it partly because they had a vision that I valued and I wanted to signal to others that it is a vision worth investing in. So I'm disappointed when I hear these reports, but I'm still supporting them because they are part of a very small community doing very important work. And since it's free software, it's not work that's going to waste, it can always be picked up by someone else. That's part of why it's so important.
djsumdog 7y ago
I recently put in a pre-order for a Librem 5 (like a month or so ago) based off the fact that their previous batches were shipping. I realized it might be 6 months to a year, but I recently have been really frustrated with my mobile experience and want out of the Android/iProduct ecosystems. My attempt to source an old Nexus 5X to run KDE Plasma off of eBay ended in a canceled order. I am totally prepared to support a phone that runs Linux and would rather spend time writing my own apps to fill in the gaps of my needs for either PureOS or Plasma. I had seen Purism 5 development boards on my mastodon/fediverse feeds, so I was confident they were out in the wild (Purism does have an official fediverse server; although they were given flack for some of their code modifications). PostmarketOS has done some amazing work, but it's still a long way from being able to run open operating systems practically on mobile devices. I don't even really care about the binary blob firmware honestly as long as I had a reasonable level of introspection on the rest of the operating system. This post makes me really sad and wonder if I should have backed this project, or tried to keep sourcing old Nexus 5Xs or wait for the PinePhone. I hate how shitty of a (non)-platform ARM is, which makes it so difficult to just port Linux to it. Microsoft at least had mandated ARM+UEFI. There are people who have gotten past their bootloader locks, but there are still no FOSS drivers for any of the hardware. If Microsoft actually gave a shit about open source, they'd release kits for getting Linux working on their old mobile devices instead of letting them end up in landfills. I've done a full post on this before: https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/ https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/ I know Purism has hit a lot of controversy before. I'm not all that mad that they can't make totally open hardware ... that is just plain difficult only any x86 hardware today because of all the stuff Intel/AMD will simply not let go of. But it is sad if they're being dishonest about their progress or outright lying to people. Most of their customers are engineers and people close to the software field; people who understand the unrealistic expectations of marketing and management--people who put up with enough bullshit as it is.
awinter-py 7y ago
Maybe the right starting point is to build a fully open USB cellular modem, rather than a fully open phone. You serve the same values and get to focus on the hardest part of the problem.
- Tepix 7y ago
  It's probably an unsolvable problem without huge funding. Perhaps the better approach is to treat the cellular modem as part of the untrusted network.
- letstrynvm 7y ago
  That's not really solveable. Their focus has been okay... the foss os stack, the gpu driver the apps... even if they fail other projects can pick these up. It's just very difficult to get to the point you have enough pieces in good shape for a minimal usable set of functionality in 2019. A month or so ago on a devkit, the browser was crashy and juddery scrolling, not janky but going away to think on things for a bit, failing to update any more etc. They're kind of responsible for all the pieces in the stack, unlike a normal phone company who get OOT kernel and drivers and gpu pieces handed to them all good by the soc vendor. if they can hold out and keep their nerve, it shows signs it will get there. But maybe in 2-5 years for the software imho.
KirinDave 7y ago
I really hope more folks talk about how deeply disappointing the hardware of this company is relative to their price and sales pitch. You can't overprice your goods AND be a transparently unethical company betraying the values you claim to uphold on your sales pitch. But that's precisely what Purism has become. When you compare the quality of their goods and software to other competitors, they often fall short even on the stated extra goals (e.g., privacy). I'm not sure how Purism's brand ends up being so untouchable. It's sort of like Brave, I think it just isn't popular enough for folks to remember exactly how ridiculously badly the company ends up behaving.
shmerl 7y ago
From all the previous failed crowdfunded hardware projects (like KDE Spark tablet, Jolla tablet and so on), I know one thing. Making mobile computer hardware is hard, when such companies depend on third parties for assembly and manufacturing. Those can pull the rug from under you at any point without even a blink. Especially when it's a tiny fish, which is nothing for them in comparison with clients that order magnitudes more. So when dealing with such crowdfunding, don't get frustrated, treat it as a high risk investment and learn to be stoic. Most likely it fill fail. But if you are lucky, it won't.
wiz21c 7y ago
Well, while we're at it, any news on the PinePhone front ?
- megous 7y ago
  Supposedly, HW will start shipping in a few days to devs.
ddevault 7y ago
I've worked directly with several people from Purism. I can confirm hearing about similar internal issues from first-party sources, as early as well over a year ago. I cancelled my Librem 5 pre-order several months ago, and it'd probably be wise for anyone who doesn't want to lose their money to do the same sooner rather than later.
- teddyh 7y ago
  > anyone who doesn't want to lose their money [would be] wise [to cancel their] Librem 5 pre-order Anyone who has sent money to anyone has already “lost” that money, in a sense. What those who have pre-ordered expect is a phone. Are you claiming that Purism won’t ever send anyone a phone? Even the person who wrote the article doesn’t go that far.
  - ddevault 7y ago
    Did I not open by saying that I have more context than most people would? I have a Librem 5 dev board, too. They may end up shipping a phone to at least some of their customers, but it's going to be a disappointing product with crippling problems.
    - teddyh 7y ago
      Please don’t keep us in the dark, then. Enlighten us with your secret knowledge, instead of giving us your conclusions of what you think everyone should do.
baybal2 7y ago
I watched a lot of initiatives for community developed hardware, starting with FIC 1973. The community people are repeating the same issue as the industry: too much time spent on drama and talks, to little on doing stuff; 40+ years old men with attention span of an infant; people being too absent minded. It require some willpower to forcefully kick detractors from opensource projects, as much as kicking out bad managers in a commercial enterprise. The Silicon Valley and the culture there does not teach people any good entrepreneurship. VCs and allegedly competent mentors do not really know how to run business properly, which in my understanding means running them profitably. I had a talk with Tapabrata (Vathys) about the case of MP3 codec chip companies still making many megabucks of pure profit on relatively simple stuff. It was very good demonstration how most of "tech" industry looses out to plain, sound entrepreneurship: The few remaining standalone MP3 decoder chips are a very good business for whomever is making them (chips sold at $10,) and it's an easy grab for just any fabless outfit, but not many people can pull even something this simple. It is for the simple reason that "people who will screw up running a billion dollar tech startup are equally capable of screwing up a $10M a year business." Even simple, and easy business require solid executions.
- gridlockd 7y ago
  The kind of people that focus on software being licensed in a particular ideological way aren't going to be the most pragmatic folks out there.
- denton-scratch 7y ago
  "40+ years old men with attention span of an infant" When I was 40 years old my attention span wasn't too bad; I was managing a dev team and a support team at the same time, and earning good money for it. I reckon a 40-year-old woman could have done even better. The dev team was not meant to be a profit centre; but it's easy to run a profitable support operation.But that was working as paid help; my one (youthful) attempt at entrepreneurship was a washout. I didn't have the temperament for it.
nickodell 7y ago
>So if you've been paying attention to Purism's website and do some digging, you'll realize that they've never actually [filed a Social Purpose Report] >I filed a complaint with the State Attorney of Washington over the issue >So yeah Purism is going to skate by on yet another clear and obvious lie. They are pretty much going out of their way to take advantage of people at this point. On a side note, its really sad and pathetic how little the state of Washington is willing to do to try and compel Purism to live up to their legally mandated expectations as an SPC. Um, what were you expecting? The State Attorney is going to view this as "someone forgot to file a form." That isn't exactly priority #1.
- Mathnerd314 7y ago
  Publicly traded companies have to file 10-K's, and failure to file ends in delisting. Similarly nonprofits have to file Form 990 or get their tax-exempt status revoked. Meanwhile "the failure to furnish a social purpose report does not affect the validity of any corporate action" (https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=23B.25.150 https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=23B.25.150) and the sole remedy is for a shareholder to request production of a report after 2 years. But failure to pay the annual filing fees is grounds for immediate dissolution (https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=23.95.255 https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=23.95.255) I think the story is that Washington SPCs are LLCs in pretty much every aspect besides shareholder-board disputes.
joecool1029 7y ago
Anyone remember Neo900? That was the last project I saw that actually had some potential of being made into a working phone supporting its own OS. I threw them 100EUR for a device that was anticipated to balloon to 1000EUR in cost. Why did I believe it was possible? They had a base to work on with the N900. Ultimately, hardware is hard and it never shipped. I don't regret plunking down as it was an attempt in the right direction, I see it as support for projects like that. The people running the project were at least transparent about delays and problems. They never said the deposits weren't a 'risk-buy'. I can't tell you how many people came to me and were like 'hur durr, just buy the librem 5, it's a real FOSS phone that's going to ship'. Yes... soon. The Purism can join the textblade as hardware projects that will ship soon. Don't let anyone tell you hardware is easy, it's not. Pebble went under with a device that's a lot more simple.
codedokode 7y ago
What I don't understand is why Purism and other vendors try to invent their own operating system instead of using Android or its parts which is: - designed by smart engineers from Google - well-tested and maintained - well-documented - has development tools and debuggers with GUI, not text-only GDB - uses GPU - has permissions and isolation for apps which Debian doesn't have - has several app stores including FDroid and lots of apps made by independent developers Why don't they want to use at least Dalvik and userspace software like Phone or Calendar? Nobody is going to rewrite thousands of applications like Youtube, Telegram, Maps or Happy Farm for Debian. Debian is nowhere near as polished as Android. For example, I watched a video about Pine64 which uses Ubuntu and UI doesn't look well-designed, the icons are hidden away from desktop, the thing that pulls down from top of screen looks inconvenient to use etc. It would be better if they just ripped iPhone's UI. Are there some technical or licensing issues or is it just because someone doesn't like Google and everything they do? Is writing in Java less productive than in C/C++/GTK or whatever they use in Ubuntu? UPD: Also 3 Gb of RAM might be not enough for Debian/Ubuntu based OS.
- ignoramous 7y ago
  Different approaches: Daniel Micay's https://grapheneos.org https://grapheneos.org is a step in the direction you're looking for. With Android 8 Google introduced Project Treble which kind of enforces that AOSP work out-of-the-box on every (!) Google Certified device. This has kick-started a popular project, phh-treble, by a senior XDA developer that I keep a keen eye on. You could flash AOSP today on any (!) Google certified android phone that launched with Oreo+ with very few quirks, if any. https://github.com/phhusson/treble_experimentations/wiki/Frequently-asked-questions-%28FAQ%29 https://github.com/phhusson/treble_experimentations/wiki/Fre...
  - phh 7y ago
    Phh-Treble author here. First, to outside looks, your post might be confusing: GrapheneOS and (Phh-)Treble are independent, and complementary. GrapheneOS is focusing on hardening Android (and tbh I'm impressed by Daniel Micay's work). Phh-Treble is about bringing AOSP (the fully opensource Android provided by Google) to the maximum of post-Oreo devices, but using OEM's proprietary drivers. It is technically possible to make a Phh-Treble GrapheneOS, to have an hardened Android that runs on any post-oreo Android device, though that's probably an heresy. Going back to the subject, I have to say that (one of) my goal when doing Phh-Treble is that some people use my work to create a whole new "Smartphone OS". There are many restrictions, and such a "new Smartphone OS" would probably need to be based on Android to be able to use Treble, but still, imagination is the limit, and you don't need to worry about the drivers! You can just create whatever you think has value, and pretty much anyone can use it straight away! And I'm not just thinking of FLOSS-oriented, privacy-focused, I'd be happy to see alternative "Smartphone OS" emerge. Looking at Android as it is today, and the opensource apps the community has made, it is possible to make a privacy-focused "Smartphone OS" that is usable to the masses without much effort. Some other post mentioned /e/, who are people that actually are trying this route. (Though they are totally ignore Treble for the moment...) Though they get quite a bad reputation, for fairly good reason (for instance there are few google "trackers" inside AOSP. they are easy to remove, yet /e/ still have them) I personly have tried to maintain a distribution of AOSP with pre-installed FLOSS apps to get out of Google's ecosystem, but I haven't had users for it. Back to the subject of Purism and Librem 5, even though I'm happy such an initiative exists, I feel like they are trying to do too many things at the same time. In my understanding, they are trying to: 1. Make a secure hardware (cf modem over USB) 2. Create a brand new Smartphone OS, going down to drivers, up to applications themselves, basically from scratch. 3. Make a device that runs mainline kernel. All of those steps can be done independently, and have much higher chances of success if done independently. Also the skill-set required for those are extremely different
newnewpdro 7y ago
For someone so critical of Purism's dishonest PR, jaylittle should probably check his own hyperbolic grandstanding of being an "investor" entitled to internal information.
noobermin 7y ago
As someone who didn't back it (I got burned by the pandora people a few years ago and have shyied from helping people like this), it seems very possible the issues in producing a FOSS phone not only faces lack of will but really faces systemic challenges that have a price tag, like producing a phone with parts that don't require blobs just adds that many more constraints. After seeing so many failures in this space, it's clear it might take something beyond the mere "backers-to-a-start-up-like-company" model. I'm not sure what that will take but it's happened enough that it appears it needs something more.
jchw 7y ago
Unfortunately the article is down, but I am deeply saddened to hear there are issues with Librem 5. I mean, I know its behind schedule, and that’s fine. But I really hope it comes to market. It’s actually funny. Seeing Gnome 3 run on a phone made me reach an epiphany: I actually don’t like Gnome 3 as a desktop environment, but it seems pretty decent as a phone environment. I’m currently running an iPhone because Apple makes good hardware. But I am pretty much ready to take any compromise to get a phone that can ship conventional Linux out of the box. I know it’s not everyone’s favorite, but with the Linux desktop I feel in control. The second best thing would be a phone running postmarket OS, but I don’t see too many promising options, and frankly I think in 2019 it’s unfortunate we can’t have a phone with mostly open source firmware.
- jaylittle 7y ago
  My apologies. My posts have been largely ignored on reddit and I don't frequent ycombinator so I didn't realize that it was getting such play over here. Thus when some fellow nerd emailed me a few hours ago asking if I'd enable ipv6 for my site, I figured "Why not?" Well the answer to that question turns out to be: I just spent the last few hours of my life dealing with intermittent website availability issues on nginx after attempting to configure ipv6. I have now reverted everything and we are back online. Sorry :(
rdiddly 7y ago
A shitstorm must be a-brewin', because the "my account" pages at puri.sm are giving 502s right now (2019-10-27 12:59 PST).
eptcyka 7y ago
I've seen the phone actually make a phone call at the chaos camp this year.
jaylittle 7y ago
Wow. Didn't realize this story was getting so much play over here. It has essentially failed to have an impact on reddit as nobody there apparently wants to be told that they are likely part of a Ponzi scheme. Regarding the 502s: I was attempting to enable IPV6 and HTTP/2 for my website per a request I received from a fellow nerd over email. After two hours of pulling my hair out over intermittent non-availability, I just reverted back to my good ole trusty IPV4 non-HTTP/2 config and all is well again. Except for that guy. Sorry dude, maybe some other time. Anyway, I would encourage everybody to read all three parts. Barring that, just read part 2 as it covers what my anonymous in-the-know source shared with me and my attempts to verify their claims with publicly available information. That's the real meat of the piece (at least it should be as I spent hours researching and cross checking data for it). Thanks again for the support!
- deftturtle 7y ago
  Definitely worth reading all 3 before you come here and comment on the subject. My takeaway is that the company needs to come clean, or it’s going to snowball into disaster.
- riazrizvi 7y ago
  Ponzi Scheme? It’s a major engineering project going over schedule. What do you expect them to say? I am so glad they have stepped up to try and get this done. As someone with a phone on order, I do appreciate you flagging the problem. I’d appreciate it more if the tone was less alarmist.
turk73 7y ago
What's disappointing is all the idiots on the Internet who say things like "well, if you don't like all the mass surveillance build your own..." and now we see just exactly how difficult that is. We need our own whole new Internet at this point. Or we can put a stop to this politically, of course.
bo1024 7y ago
This link (Part 1) is outdated due to Purism's blog post the same day: https://puri.sm/posts/supplying-the-demand/ https://puri.sm/posts/supplying-the-demand/ I am an early backer of the Librem 5 and have been following the campaign as well as comments of jaylittle and others on related forums. I think I speak for many users in feeling that jaylitte's somewhat extreme reaction is counterproductive. But at the same time we have been disappointed in Purism's lack of transparency bordering on deception regarding Aspen. We have been waiting a long time for this phone and are okay with waiting a bit longer, but not so okay with being deceived.
gridlockd 7y ago
There's a stark economic difference in producing hardware versus software. A single person fueled with nothing but instant noodles and energy drinks can produce software that changes the world. There's no significant upfront costs and lots of room for mistakes. Libre hardware can only work if there is strong and stable demand from users, and those users need to adjust their expectations. Writing long-winded critical blog-posts, burdening Purism with refunds and investigations on formalities unrelated to the phone - that isn't going to help. If anything, it's poisoning the well. It should be obvious that most companies aren't interested in pandering to FOSS-enthusiasts.
kd3 7y ago
Sounds like a serious case of Elon Musk time and planning (missing deadlines, bad time estimates etc.). A small company like Purism delivering an ambitious first time project like the Librem 5 phone on time would be nothing short of a miracle. The clouds would have parted and jesus himself would have come down to congratulate them. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and have some more patience.
skinnyasianboi 7y ago
I have so much hope in this project. Linux apps adding support for libhandy is so full filling to see. A long time dream seems to become true. My thinking might be way to posetive but the fact that the post gets a lot of attention on HN might even help the project instead of letting it die.
cbsmith 7y ago
Let's hope it doesn't go the way of MPC: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21369210 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21369210
grizzles 7y ago
I feel for the backers but this was entirely predictable: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16182968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16182968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17913940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17913940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15090567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15090567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17140823 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17140823 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17913700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17913700 I even tried to warn Todd off his approach before the crowdfunding campaign kicked off. I knew no good would come of it.
- grizzles 7y ago
  How I would have did it: 1. (If possible) License a mediatek phone & ship an open source android image. Sell it for a low price. Pros: No risk, great phone, Cons: Might not be possible - though Fairphone did it for a high end phone. 2. Ship a Raspberry Pi Zero + Battery + LCD screen sandwiched together. Pros: A focus entirely on the mfg process might get you a slim mobile device. Cons: No 4G modem. 3. Don't do it at all. Pros: Save reputation. Cons: No Purism One funding. The approach they took (custom everything) was insane.
- grizzles 7y ago
  Brutal interview here with the former Purism CTO: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-Todoric-Interview https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-T...
alasdair_ 7y ago
Annecdata: I ordered the laptop a couple of years ago (with qubes installed). They missed SIX month-long deadlines to ship it before I finally gave up and asked for a refund.
mlinksva 7y ago
Part 2 says (emphasis added): > Purism has long since spent all of the initial crowdfunding income and is depending on new Librem 5 pre-orders for most of their revenue. Is it possible that a healthy laptop business is subsidizing phone development? Presumably not if Purism is turning to Kickfurther, but it seems like a possibility that ought be analyzed.
mattl 7y ago
No way this phone ships on time and working
marcan_42 7y ago
The Librem 5 has long since gone off-course. Even before all of these supply/deliverability issues, they have never really attempted to deliver a "free" phone. What it seems they're actually trying to do is deliver a phone that the FSF will certify as "Respects your Freedom". Unfortunately, that certification is not just complete snake oil, but actually encourages devices that reduce your freedom. I made a Twitter want about how the Librem 5 is doing entirely the wrong thing here: https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1040626210999431168?s=19 https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1040626210999431168?s=19 TL;DR the FSF lets you have blobs as long as the user doesn't see them and the main CPU doesn't touch them (not run then, like, it can't even touch them/set them up/upload them to another CPU). This means that not only are you running proprietary firmware, you also don't know you're running it, you can't see it, you can't change it, you can't audit it, and you can never reverse engineer it and replace it with a free version. Having a pile of blobs in /lib/firmware respects your freedom a hell of a lot more than that nonsense.
ldarby 7y ago
For the people complaing about closed firmware, remember that obtaining FSF certifcation can be achieved by e.g. cutting off the hardware pins to make upgrading it impossible, turning the "firmware" into "hardware". This is what the OpenMoko project did https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/task2-openmoko https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/task2-openmoko. Is this what you would prefer?
- seba_dos1 7y ago
  GTA04 isn't an Openmoko project (it just uses Openmoko Neo Freerunner's case), and the firmware injector project never went anywhere AFAIR.

251 points by hlandau 7y ago

mlthoughts2018 7y ago

It gives me a 502 bad gateway error if (and only if) I try to access it when connected to vpn.

ncmncm 7y ago
Perhaps ironically, I get that error when using the Librem VPN. I got through to parts 1 and 2 a short time ago, but cannot see part 3 -- nor parts 1 and 2, now.
jaylittle 7y ago
Should be resolved, sorry ;)

whydoyoucare 7y ago

Is it just me or is everyone hitting a 502 (Bad Gateway) error?

jaylittle 7y ago
Should be resolved, sorry ;)

Kenji 7y ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20191027144805/https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-purism-and-the-librem-5-part-1 https://web.archive.org/web/20191027144805/https://jaylittle...

teddyh 7y ago
Part 2: https://web.archive.org/web/20191027153729/https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-purism-and-the-librem-5-part-2 https://web.archive.org/web/20191027153729/https://jaylittle... Part 3: https://web.archive.org/web/20191027165020/https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-purism-and-the-librem-5-part-3 https://web.archive.org/web/20191027165020/https://jaylittle...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

kiba 7y ago

it has now been made clear that the phone will have to use proprietary firmware blobs for a variety of onboard devices. They worked with the FSF to make it certified. To my understanding, it's basically an impossible tasking to write open source firmware, not if you want to throw additional million of dollars(this is just a guess). The compromise is that you basically cannot update those binary blobs.

mike-cardwell 7y ago
It was always my understanding that some of the hardware would not be open, but that hardware would be sufficiently isolated from the core of the device.
- whydoyoucare 7y ago
  I think that is the key design aspect, since as other user stated, it is extremely difficult to get open source firmware unless you are willing to spend a lot of $$. It is indeed a sad state for Purism 5 to be in.
- herogreen 7y ago
  Agreed, having modems not sharing memory with the CPU would already be a big progress.
  - mondoshawan 7y ago
    Sadly, the modems are on PCIe, so this means they are sharing memory and address space with the host iMX8.
    - djsumdog 7y ago
      Yea, if feels like if you wanted that kind of isolation, you'd actually need a second SoC on there with its own memory and some kind of communication back to the main processor.
    - V4ASt2 7y ago

voltagex_ 7y ago

From the other parts, it sounds like you might not have to worry about firmware at all - you won't get a phone.

yepthatsreality 7y ago

I have also been wondering about the lack of shipment and post regarding it. Some of these issues seem like they should have had a plan before announcing models. I’m still hopeful. And for the record it looks like Librem has indicated some of the reasons Aspen and Birch models aren’t shipped to customers in a recent blog post (memory, performance, and battery issues). [0] [0] https://puri.sm/posts/supplying-the-demand/ https://puri.sm/posts/supplying-the-demand/

frittig 7y ago

I just get a 502 error

jaylittle 7y ago
Should be resolved, sorry ;)

mondoshawan 7y ago

There have been some interesting technical developments with regard to the points Jay is making. For one, FCC certification should only be necessary for the baseboard -- the SOM and PCIe devices should carry their own certification. The fact that they are supposedly sending these out without certs for the baseboard is hugely concerning -- and illegal. If anything, this is the core reason why nothing has left their hands yet. What else is concerning is that they are shipping the SOM without schematics or documentation -- even the dev units have no details on their construction. For reference, Purism only made the baseboard and mechanicals -- the actual SOC and RAM are on a module made by Elecom. I asked about this in their matrix channels and the best answer I could get was "it will be made open" -- a tall order, given the past history of Elecom keeping their designs close to their chest. This is most likely the core reason why their thermal and RAM performance sucks -- the community can't get in there to help. Note that they aren't even running the RAM at full speed -- that's not something you can easily change without re-generating the training programs, and locking that in without proper burn-in or huge amounts of QA to validate is going to likely be the biggest hurdle they will face. Especially given the requirement that the program not be updated. Source: built and shipped SOMs using the i.MX8MQ in the past and still supporting them now: RAM training is a huge problem.

awinter-py 7y ago
what is RAM training? I googled this but google thinks 'training' means 'documentation' apparently
- nsomaru 7y ago
  It seems that memory is “trained” on boot — the system does POST and checks that critical hardware is responding as expected. PC motherboards have some settings to adjust timing for enthusiasts, but I’m not sure that that’s a trend or even desirable in consumer electronics. So these expected values are probably “burnt in” to the design and difficult to change. Maybe Purism has a way to do this? I am not an expert!
  - mondoshawan 7y ago

RandomBacon 7y ago

I don't think they're trying to be malicious, I just think that they have piss-poor public relations and are digging themselves into a bigger hole. I understand that they're worfully behind schedule and that some people are mad, but... I wish people would just let them focus on building the phone rather than hounding them which might cause them to cut even more corners and result in a worse product. I paid them $600 or whatever two years ago, and I say let them keep building. It's okay to be critical, but it seems like some people are bullying/trolling. Even in HN threads from months ago before shipping was even an issue.

mondoshawan 7y ago
When you've been doing development in consumer tech, some of these missteps are glaringly obvious and having proper engineering in place from the start would have avoided much of the problem. I, too, am a backer and keep hope alive, but I, too, am a hardware developer and half the things they are saying don't jive with the facts, or are omissions critical to the product's success (RAM timing, FCC certification, etc). Have to say, I'm a bit jaded now, but if it comes out, it comes out, and I'll be happy regardless. Doesn't mean I'm going to keep my trap shut when something is fishy, though. My big concern right now is that they're pushing hard to release before things are ready, and with this SOC, that can easily be a death knell for the product they release.
- RandomBacon 7y ago
  > My big concern right now is that they're pushing hard to release before things are ready Because people keep hounding them! Do you do your best work when people keep interupting you asking when it'll be ready? You would still complete your task if people weren't interupting you, right? The interuptions might cause you to say 'fuck it' and just ship just to get it over with, even though you wanted to spend 10% or whatever more time to make it 50% better. That's what I'm getting at.
  - mondoshawan 7y ago
    Usually you dont bypass engineering practices because customers are hounding you. The best way is to answer, demonstrate, and improve customer relations by showing them the facts. Answer a critic and you will better improve your relations. Customers can and do wait when the waiting is warranted. Thus far, Purism has been omitting facts such as RAM performance, and sidestepping directed questions. These don't instill confidence in customers for an "open" company. Moreover, hardware cannot be shipped this way. Schedules and the needs of the hardware dictate the control of the schedule. You literally cannot ship a PCB until regulatory requirements are satisfied and the boards are assembled.

teddyh 7y ago

Part 3 quotes /u/whiteinge on reddit¹: Let's assume the company is in jeopardy. Let's assume the project is over-promised and will be late and under-deliver. Let's assume the CEO is a fuckup and the Marketing Director is a liar. None of that is as bad as NO smartphone alternative to Google and Apple, let alone an open and privacy-focused alternative. I'm a Linux user and I very much want a Linux phone. And there has been so, so many false starts and near misses over almost a decade. My patience and goodwill for Purism and the Librem 5 is effectively infinite. It's not over until they shutter the doors or can the project. Until that happens I will continue to hope they limp over that finish line no matter what. 1. https://www.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/dm2smy/is_the_librem_5_being_targeted_in_a_viral_media/f54gaur/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/dm2smy/is_the_libre...

badrabbit 7y ago
Well said,if only someone throwed money at purism like they did with signal.
- akimball 7y ago
  Indeed, what good is signal on your phone, when your phone is out of your control?
jdjdjjsjs 7y ago
This doesn't make sense to me. If all those things about the company and its execs are true they are almost certainly not gonna deliver the alternative you are clamoring for. In the meanwhile your money is sitting with them instead of a team that actually might
- robto 7y ago
  Except that they are making progress. They've upstreamed some import work to the kernal, they've contributed to phosh and libhandy. They clearly aren't working as fast as they (or many others) would like, but they are working. And not many other people are. I also support hardware projects like ZeroPhone, Pine Phone, and the Dragonbox Pyra and software projects like Plasma Mobile. When I saw Purism articulate a vision for what a phone could be I had to support them too. I wish they collaborated and communicated better, and I wish they had made some different decisions regarding the stack, but at the end of the day they are slowly moving the ball forward. But when I gave them $600 I did it partly because they had a vision that I valued and I wanted to signal to others that it is a vision worth investing in. So I'm disappointed when I hear these reports, but I'm still supporting them because they are part of a very small community doing very important work. And since it's free software, it's not work that's going to waste, it can always be picked up by someone else. That's part of why it's so important.

djsumdog 7y ago

I recently put in a pre-order for a Librem 5 (like a month or so ago) based off the fact that their previous batches were shipping. I realized it might be 6 months to a year, but I recently have been really frustrated with my mobile experience and want out of the Android/iProduct ecosystems. My attempt to source an old Nexus 5X to run KDE Plasma off of eBay ended in a canceled order. I am totally prepared to support a phone that runs Linux and would rather spend time writing my own apps to fill in the gaps of my needs for either PureOS or Plasma. I had seen Purism 5 development boards on my mastodon/fediverse feeds, so I was confident they were out in the wild (Purism does have an official fediverse server; although they were given flack for some of their code modifications). PostmarketOS has done some amazing work, but it's still a long way from being able to run open operating systems practically on mobile devices. I don't even really care about the binary blob firmware honestly as long as I had a reasonable level of introspection on the rest of the operating system. This post makes me really sad and wonder if I should have backed this project, or tried to keep sourcing old Nexus 5Xs or wait for the PinePhone. I hate how shitty of a (non)-platform ARM is, which makes it so difficult to just port Linux to it. Microsoft at least had mandated ARM+UEFI. There are people who have gotten past their bootloader locks, but there are still no FOSS drivers for any of the hardware. If Microsoft actually gave a shit about open source, they'd release kits for getting Linux working on their old mobile devices instead of letting them end up in landfills. I've done a full post on this before: https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/ https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/ I know Purism has hit a lot of controversy before. I'm not all that mad that they can't make totally open hardware ... that is just plain difficult only any x86 hardware today because of all the stuff Intel/AMD will simply not let go of. But it is sad if they're being dishonest about their progress or outright lying to people. Most of their customers are engineers and people close to the software field; people who understand the unrealistic expectations of marketing and management--people who put up with enough bullshit as it is.

awinter-py 7y ago

Maybe the right starting point is to build a fully open USB cellular modem, rather than a fully open phone. You serve the same values and get to focus on the hardest part of the problem.

Tepix 7y ago
It's probably an unsolvable problem without huge funding. Perhaps the better approach is to treat the cellular modem as part of the untrusted network.
letstrynvm 7y ago
That's not really solveable. Their focus has been okay... the foss os stack, the gpu driver the apps... even if they fail other projects can pick these up. It's just very difficult to get to the point you have enough pieces in good shape for a minimal usable set of functionality in 2019. A month or so ago on a devkit, the browser was crashy and juddery scrolling, not janky but going away to think on things for a bit, failing to update any more etc. They're kind of responsible for all the pieces in the stack, unlike a normal phone company who get OOT kernel and drivers and gpu pieces handed to them all good by the soc vendor. if they can hold out and keep their nerve, it shows signs it will get there. But maybe in 2-5 years for the software imho.

KirinDave 7y ago

I really hope more folks talk about how deeply disappointing the hardware of this company is relative to their price and sales pitch. You can't overprice your goods AND be a transparently unethical company betraying the values you claim to uphold on your sales pitch. But that's precisely what Purism has become. When you compare the quality of their goods and software to other competitors, they often fall short even on the stated extra goals (e.g., privacy). I'm not sure how Purism's brand ends up being so untouchable. It's sort of like Brave, I think it just isn't popular enough for folks to remember exactly how ridiculously badly the company ends up behaving.

shmerl 7y ago

From all the previous failed crowdfunded hardware projects (like KDE Spark tablet, Jolla tablet and so on), I know one thing. Making mobile computer hardware is hard, when such companies depend on third parties for assembly and manufacturing. Those can pull the rug from under you at any point without even a blink. Especially when it's a tiny fish, which is nothing for them in comparison with clients that order magnitudes more. So when dealing with such crowdfunding, don't get frustrated, treat it as a high risk investment and learn to be stoic. Most likely it fill fail. But if you are lucky, it won't.

wiz21c 7y ago

Well, while we're at it, any news on the PinePhone front ?

megous 7y ago
Supposedly, HW will start shipping in a few days to devs.

ddevault 7y ago

I've worked directly with several people from Purism. I can confirm hearing about similar internal issues from first-party sources, as early as well over a year ago. I cancelled my Librem 5 pre-order several months ago, and it'd probably be wise for anyone who doesn't want to lose their money to do the same sooner rather than later.

teddyh 7y ago
> anyone who doesn't want to lose their money [would be] wise [to cancel their] Librem 5 pre-order Anyone who has sent money to anyone has already “lost” that money, in a sense. What those who have pre-ordered expect is a phone. Are you claiming that Purism won’t ever send anyone a phone? Even the person who wrote the article doesn’t go that far.
- ddevault 7y ago
  Did I not open by saying that I have more context than most people would? I have a Librem 5 dev board, too. They may end up shipping a phone to at least some of their customers, but it's going to be a disappointing product with crippling problems.
  - teddyh 7y ago
    Please don’t keep us in the dark, then. Enlighten us with your secret knowledge, instead of giving us your conclusions of what you think everyone should do.

baybal2 7y ago

I watched a lot of initiatives for community developed hardware, starting with FIC 1973. The community people are repeating the same issue as the industry: too much time spent on drama and talks, to little on doing stuff; 40+ years old men with attention span of an infant; people being too absent minded. It require some willpower to forcefully kick detractors from opensource projects, as much as kicking out bad managers in a commercial enterprise. The Silicon Valley and the culture there does not teach people any good entrepreneurship. VCs and allegedly competent mentors do not really know how to run business properly, which in my understanding means running them profitably. I had a talk with Tapabrata (Vathys) about the case of MP3 codec chip companies still making many megabucks of pure profit on relatively simple stuff. It was very good demonstration how most of "tech" industry looses out to plain, sound entrepreneurship: The few remaining standalone MP3 decoder chips are a very good business for whomever is making them (chips sold at $10,) and it's an easy grab for just any fabless outfit, but not many people can pull even something this simple. It is for the simple reason that "people who will screw up running a billion dollar tech startup are equally capable of screwing up a $10M a year business." Even simple, and easy business require solid executions.

gridlockd 7y ago
The kind of people that focus on software being licensed in a particular ideological way aren't going to be the most pragmatic folks out there.
denton-scratch 7y ago
"40+ years old men with attention span of an infant" When I was 40 years old my attention span wasn't too bad; I was managing a dev team and a support team at the same time, and earning good money for it. I reckon a 40-year-old woman could have done even better. The dev team was not meant to be a profit centre; but it's easy to run a profitable support operation.But that was working as paid help; my one (youthful) attempt at entrepreneurship was a washout. I didn't have the temperament for it.

nickodell 7y ago

>So if you've been paying attention to Purism's website and do some digging, you'll realize that they've never actually [filed a Social Purpose Report] >I filed a complaint with the State Attorney of Washington over the issue >So yeah Purism is going to skate by on yet another clear and obvious lie. They are pretty much going out of their way to take advantage of people at this point. On a side note, its really sad and pathetic how little the state of Washington is willing to do to try and compel Purism to live up to their legally mandated expectations as an SPC. Um, what were you expecting? The State Attorney is going to view this as "someone forgot to file a form." That isn't exactly priority #1.

Mathnerd314 7y ago
Publicly traded companies have to file 10-K's, and failure to file ends in delisting. Similarly nonprofits have to file Form 990 or get their tax-exempt status revoked. Meanwhile "the failure to furnish a social purpose report does not affect the validity of any corporate action" (https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=23B.25.150 https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=23B.25.150) and the sole remedy is for a shareholder to request production of a report after 2 years. But failure to pay the annual filing fees is grounds for immediate dissolution (https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=23.95.255 https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=23.95.255) I think the story is that Washington SPCs are LLCs in pretty much every aspect besides shareholder-board disputes.

joecool1029 7y ago

Anyone remember Neo900? That was the last project I saw that actually had some potential of being made into a working phone supporting its own OS. I threw them 100EUR for a device that was anticipated to balloon to 1000EUR in cost. Why did I believe it was possible? They had a base to work on with the N900. Ultimately, hardware is hard and it never shipped. I don't regret plunking down as it was an attempt in the right direction, I see it as support for projects like that. The people running the project were at least transparent about delays and problems. They never said the deposits weren't a 'risk-buy'. I can't tell you how many people came to me and were like 'hur durr, just buy the librem 5, it's a real FOSS phone that's going to ship'. Yes... soon. The Purism can join the textblade as hardware projects that will ship soon. Don't let anyone tell you hardware is easy, it's not. Pebble went under with a device that's a lot more simple.

codedokode 7y ago

What I don't understand is why Purism and other vendors try to invent their own operating system instead of using Android or its parts which is: - designed by smart engineers from Google - well-tested and maintained - well-documented - has development tools and debuggers with GUI, not text-only GDB - uses GPU - has permissions and isolation for apps which Debian doesn't have - has several app stores including FDroid and lots of apps made by independent developers Why don't they want to use at least Dalvik and userspace software like Phone or Calendar? Nobody is going to rewrite thousands of applications like Youtube, Telegram, Maps or Happy Farm for Debian. Debian is nowhere near as polished as Android. For example, I watched a video about Pine64 which uses Ubuntu and UI doesn't look well-designed, the icons are hidden away from desktop, the thing that pulls down from top of screen looks inconvenient to use etc. It would be better if they just ripped iPhone's UI. Are there some technical or licensing issues or is it just because someone doesn't like Google and everything they do? Is writing in Java less productive than in C/C++/GTK or whatever they use in Ubuntu? UPD: Also 3 Gb of RAM might be not enough for Debian/Ubuntu based OS.

ignoramous 7y ago
Different approaches: Daniel Micay's https://grapheneos.org https://grapheneos.org is a step in the direction you're looking for. With Android 8 Google introduced Project Treble which kind of enforces that AOSP work out-of-the-box on every (!) Google Certified device. This has kick-started a popular project, phh-treble, by a senior XDA developer that I keep a keen eye on. You could flash AOSP today on any (!) Google certified android phone that launched with Oreo+ with very few quirks, if any. https://github.com/phhusson/treble_experimentations/wiki/Frequently-asked-questions-%28FAQ%29 https://github.com/phhusson/treble_experimentations/wiki/Fre...
- phh 7y ago
  Phh-Treble author here. First, to outside looks, your post might be confusing: GrapheneOS and (Phh-)Treble are independent, and complementary. GrapheneOS is focusing on hardening Android (and tbh I'm impressed by Daniel Micay's work). Phh-Treble is about bringing AOSP (the fully opensource Android provided by Google) to the maximum of post-Oreo devices, but using OEM's proprietary drivers. It is technically possible to make a Phh-Treble GrapheneOS, to have an hardened Android that runs on any post-oreo Android device, though that's probably an heresy. Going back to the subject, I have to say that (one of) my goal when doing Phh-Treble is that some people use my work to create a whole new "Smartphone OS". There are many restrictions, and such a "new Smartphone OS" would probably need to be based on Android to be able to use Treble, but still, imagination is the limit, and you don't need to worry about the drivers! You can just create whatever you think has value, and pretty much anyone can use it straight away! And I'm not just thinking of FLOSS-oriented, privacy-focused, I'd be happy to see alternative "Smartphone OS" emerge. Looking at Android as it is today, and the opensource apps the community has made, it is possible to make a privacy-focused "Smartphone OS" that is usable to the masses without much effort. Some other post mentioned /e/, who are people that actually are trying this route. (Though they are totally ignore Treble for the moment...) Though they get quite a bad reputation, for fairly good reason (for instance there are few google "trackers" inside AOSP. they are easy to remove, yet /e/ still have them) I personly have tried to maintain a distribution of AOSP with pre-installed FLOSS apps to get out of Google's ecosystem, but I haven't had users for it. Back to the subject of Purism and Librem 5, even though I'm happy such an initiative exists, I feel like they are trying to do too many things at the same time. In my understanding, they are trying to: 1. Make a secure hardware (cf modem over USB) 2. Create a brand new Smartphone OS, going down to drivers, up to applications themselves, basically from scratch. 3. Make a device that runs mainline kernel. All of those steps can be done independently, and have much higher chances of success if done independently. Also the skill-set required for those are extremely different

newnewpdro 7y ago

For someone so critical of Purism's dishonest PR, jaylittle should probably check his own hyperbolic grandstanding of being an "investor" entitled to internal information.

noobermin 7y ago

As someone who didn't back it (I got burned by the pandora people a few years ago and have shyied from helping people like this), it seems very possible the issues in producing a FOSS phone not only faces lack of will but really faces systemic challenges that have a price tag, like producing a phone with parts that don't require blobs just adds that many more constraints. After seeing so many failures in this space, it's clear it might take something beyond the mere "backers-to-a-start-up-like-company" model. I'm not sure what that will take but it's happened enough that it appears it needs something more.

jchw 7y ago

Unfortunately the article is down, but I am deeply saddened to hear there are issues with Librem 5. I mean, I know its behind schedule, and that’s fine. But I really hope it comes to market. It’s actually funny. Seeing Gnome 3 run on a phone made me reach an epiphany: I actually don’t like Gnome 3 as a desktop environment, but it seems pretty decent as a phone environment. I’m currently running an iPhone because Apple makes good hardware. But I am pretty much ready to take any compromise to get a phone that can ship conventional Linux out of the box. I know it’s not everyone’s favorite, but with the Linux desktop I feel in control. The second best thing would be a phone running postmarket OS, but I don’t see too many promising options, and frankly I think in 2019 it’s unfortunate we can’t have a phone with mostly open source firmware.

jaylittle 7y ago
My apologies. My posts have been largely ignored on reddit and I don't frequent ycombinator so I didn't realize that it was getting such play over here. Thus when some fellow nerd emailed me a few hours ago asking if I'd enable ipv6 for my site, I figured "Why not?" Well the answer to that question turns out to be: I just spent the last few hours of my life dealing with intermittent website availability issues on nginx after attempting to configure ipv6. I have now reverted everything and we are back online. Sorry :(

rdiddly 7y ago

A shitstorm must be a-brewin', because the "my account" pages at puri.sm are giving 502s right now (2019-10-27 12:59 PST).

eptcyka 7y ago

I've seen the phone actually make a phone call at the chaos camp this year.

jaylittle 7y ago

Wow. Didn't realize this story was getting so much play over here. It has essentially failed to have an impact on reddit as nobody there apparently wants to be told that they are likely part of a Ponzi scheme. Regarding the 502s: I was attempting to enable IPV6 and HTTP/2 for my website per a request I received from a fellow nerd over email. After two hours of pulling my hair out over intermittent non-availability, I just reverted back to my good ole trusty IPV4 non-HTTP/2 config and all is well again. Except for that guy. Sorry dude, maybe some other time. Anyway, I would encourage everybody to read all three parts. Barring that, just read part 2 as it covers what my anonymous in-the-know source shared with me and my attempts to verify their claims with publicly available information. That's the real meat of the piece (at least it should be as I spent hours researching and cross checking data for it). Thanks again for the support!

deftturtle 7y ago
Definitely worth reading all 3 before you come here and comment on the subject. My takeaway is that the company needs to come clean, or it’s going to snowball into disaster.
riazrizvi 7y ago
Ponzi Scheme? It’s a major engineering project going over schedule. What do you expect them to say? I am so glad they have stepped up to try and get this done. As someone with a phone on order, I do appreciate you flagging the problem. I’d appreciate it more if the tone was less alarmist.

turk73 7y ago

What's disappointing is all the idiots on the Internet who say things like "well, if you don't like all the mass surveillance build your own..." and now we see just exactly how difficult that is. We need our own whole new Internet at this point. Or we can put a stop to this politically, of course.

bo1024 7y ago

This link (Part 1) is outdated due to Purism's blog post the same day: https://puri.sm/posts/supplying-the-demand/ https://puri.sm/posts/supplying-the-demand/ I am an early backer of the Librem 5 and have been following the campaign as well as comments of jaylittle and others on related forums. I think I speak for many users in feeling that jaylitte's somewhat extreme reaction is counterproductive. But at the same time we have been disappointed in Purism's lack of transparency bordering on deception regarding Aspen. We have been waiting a long time for this phone and are okay with waiting a bit longer, but not so okay with being deceived.

gridlockd 7y ago

There's a stark economic difference in producing hardware versus software. A single person fueled with nothing but instant noodles and energy drinks can produce software that changes the world. There's no significant upfront costs and lots of room for mistakes. Libre hardware can only work if there is strong and stable demand from users, and those users need to adjust their expectations. Writing long-winded critical blog-posts, burdening Purism with refunds and investigations on formalities unrelated to the phone - that isn't going to help. If anything, it's poisoning the well. It should be obvious that most companies aren't interested in pandering to FOSS-enthusiasts.

kd3 7y ago

Sounds like a serious case of Elon Musk time and planning (missing deadlines, bad time estimates etc.). A small company like Purism delivering an ambitious first time project like the Librem 5 phone on time would be nothing short of a miracle. The clouds would have parted and jesus himself would have come down to congratulate them. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and have some more patience.

skinnyasianboi 7y ago

I have so much hope in this project. Linux apps adding support for libhandy is so full filling to see. A long time dream seems to become true. My thinking might be way to posetive but the fact that the post gets a lot of attention on HN might even help the project instead of letting it die.

cbsmith 7y ago

Let's hope it doesn't go the way of MPC: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21369210 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21369210

grizzles 7y ago

I feel for the backers but this was entirely predictable: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16182968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16182968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17913940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17913940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15090567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15090567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17140823 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17140823 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17913700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17913700 I even tried to warn Todd off his approach before the crowdfunding campaign kicked off. I knew no good would come of it.

grizzles 7y ago
How I would have did it: 1. (If possible) License a mediatek phone & ship an open source android image. Sell it for a low price. Pros: No risk, great phone, Cons: Might not be possible - though Fairphone did it for a high end phone. 2. Ship a Raspberry Pi Zero + Battery + LCD screen sandwiched together. Pros: A focus entirely on the mfg process might get you a slim mobile device. Cons: No 4G modem. 3. Don't do it at all. Pros: Save reputation. Cons: No Purism One funding. The approach they took (custom everything) was insane.
grizzles 7y ago
Brutal interview here with the former Purism CTO: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-Todoric-Interview https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-T...

alasdair_ 7y ago

Annecdata: I ordered the laptop a couple of years ago (with qubes installed). They missed SIX month-long deadlines to ship it before I finally gave up and asked for a refund.

mlinksva 7y ago

Part 2 says (emphasis added): > Purism has long since spent all of the initial crowdfunding income and is depending on new Librem 5 pre-orders for most of their revenue. Is it possible that a healthy laptop business is subsidizing phone development? Presumably not if Purism is turning to Kickfurther, but it seems like a possibility that ought be analyzed.

mattl 7y ago

No way this phone ships on time and working

marcan_42 7y ago

The Librem 5 has long since gone off-course. Even before all of these supply/deliverability issues, they have never really attempted to deliver a "free" phone. What it seems they're actually trying to do is deliver a phone that the FSF will certify as "Respects your Freedom". Unfortunately, that certification is not just complete snake oil, but actually encourages devices that reduce your freedom. I made a Twitter want about how the Librem 5 is doing entirely the wrong thing here: https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1040626210999431168?s=19 https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1040626210999431168?s=19 TL;DR the FSF lets you have blobs as long as the user doesn't see them and the main CPU doesn't touch them (not run then, like, it can't even touch them/set them up/upload them to another CPU). This means that not only are you running proprietary firmware, you also don't know you're running it, you can't see it, you can't change it, you can't audit it, and you can never reverse engineer it and replace it with a free version. Having a pile of blobs in /lib/firmware respects your freedom a hell of a lot more than that nonsense.

ldarby 7y ago

For the people complaing about closed firmware, remember that obtaining FSF certifcation can be achieved by e.g. cutting off the hardware pins to make upgrading it impossible, turning the "firmware" into "hardware". This is what the OpenMoko project did https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/task2-openmoko https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/task2-openmoko. Is this what you would prefer?

seba_dos1 7y ago
GTA04 isn't an Openmoko project (it just uses Openmoko Neo Freerunner's case), and the firmware injector project never went anywhere AFAIR.