4 ms·

This is a bizarrely rose tinted view of China, which not only completely ignores mistreatment of ethnic, religious and sexual minorities - from imprisonment and

by dbspin 7y ago

This is a bizarrely rose tinted view of China, which not only completely ignores mistreatment of ethnic, religious and sexual minorities - from imprisonment and 'reeducation to literal organ legging; but also the everyday horrors of life under an authoritarian dictatorship. For example the frequent adulteration of food (including baby food) with poisons. The panopticon surveillance and control of movement which prevents the poor and those living in rural areas from travelling within their own country. Restrictions on free speech, not only political in nature but critical of any aspects of civil society - and the inevitable lack of reforms to public health and safety. Increasing nationalism, police observation and 'patriotic' violent attacks on foreigners. Violence against medical professionals when patients feel (rightly or wrongly) that they haven't received the treatment they should have. The rise of an unelected dictator forming a cult of personality and the subsequent reinvigoration of anti-foreign, nativist han Chinese sentiment, and the increased suppression of minorities and dissent that has resulted. The thousands of 'incidents' of protests (attempted rebellions) that are ruthlessly crushed each year, while being actively hidden by Chinese media and social media. The incredibly successful censorship of both China's own history and any discourse about political reform. On and on. China is a spectacular case of all the ills that can befall a centralised authoritarian regime when people cannot directly criticise their government. This article seems to advocate 'learning from China' in a way that implies replicating their authoritarian control. It reminds me of a bizarre TED talk a few years ago that celebrated the supposedly effective meritocracy of the CCP - just before it became one man dictatorship - while ignoring the fact that the CCP leadership is almost exclusively composed of the children and grandchildren of the communist party leaders that supported Mao. It is in short, thinly veiled propaganda.

Barrin92 7y ago
I've seen this website pop up here a few times and the amount of pro-Chinese content together with apocalyptic stories about North America and Europe on it together with the self-proclaimed talk about a "post-liberal" future is pretty off. Is there information available on who funds this?
- dbspin 7y ago
  Hard to say. The mission statement seems to be an attempt to create a 'post liberal synthesis', which sounds like Tony Gidden's neoliberal 'third way', but is so no specific it could mean just about anything. https://palladiummag.com/2018/09/29/towards-the-post-liberal-synthesis/ https://palladiummag.com/2018/09/29/towards-the-post-liberal...
baal80spam 7y ago
What you wrote is very true indeed. Some time ago I saw a recommendation of this book on HN: https://www.amazon.com/have-been-harmonised-Kai-Strittmatter/dp/1913083004 https://www.amazon.com/have-been-harmonised-Kai-Strittmatter... It made me read it and even though I try to be up to date with world news - it's a true eye opener.
Reedx 7y ago
Yes, those are serious problems, but you're not painting a full picture either. Notably ignoring the fact that hundreds of millions of people in China have been pulled out of poverty in recent years. They're able to get big things done. Elon Musk recently commented that he was amazed how fast they're able to build things and said he's never seen anything like it. We are regressing in this aspect. We can't even get decent public transit built in the Bay Area or improve the homeless situation despite being one of the richest places in the world.
- dbspin 7y ago
  Not sure what your point is? India too has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, while remaining federated and to some extent democratic. The elevation of China's billions out of poverty has come through it's involvement with the marketplace of global capitalist democracies - not the other way around.
  - oefrha 7y ago
    Indian and Chinese GDP were both ~$100 billion around 1970. In 2018, Indian GDP is $2.7 trillion whereas Chinese GDP is $13.6 trillion, five times the former (World Bank, nominal). The populations of the two are very close, so per capita GDP is also roughly 1:5. The PPP difference is smaller. No offense to the Indian people, but I always find it amusing when people use India as the counterexample to China to show "you don't need Socialism to achieve the same results." When it almost tells the exact opposite story. There's also this.[3] [1] https://data.worldbank.org/country/india https://data.worldbank.org/country/india [2] https://data.worldbank.org/country/china https://data.worldbank.org/country/china [3] https://web.archive.org/web/20160921084037/http://www.spectrezine.org/global/chomsky.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20160921084037/http://www.spectr...
    - dbspin 7y ago
      China is not in any sense socialist or even communist. It lacks free health care, public housing, and state service provision. It is neither internationalist nor collectivist. It's a hybrid single party ethno-nationalist capitalist state, or if you prefer a fascist oligarchy. The Chinese economy is overvalued, and economic growth is grinding to a halt despite massive government spending. https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3033564/china-doubles-value-infrastructure-project-approvals-stave https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3033564/c... Every western country is a counter example.
senorjazz 7y ago
> which not only completely ignores mistreatment of ethnic, religious and sexual minorities - from imprisonment but the US statistics on imprisonment of minorities is no better. > For example the frequent adulteration of food (including baby food) with poisons all major countries have scares and recalls due to contamination > The panopticon surveillance really? After all the details come out in the last 5 years, surveillance cannot be thrown at the Chinese alone. UK leads CCTV per population (or some metric). NSA data slurping revelations... > and the inevitable lack of reforms to public health and safety. why do you think the Chinese do not make improvements to public health and safety? Of course they do. > Increasing nationalism, police observation and 'patriotic' violent attacks on foreigners errr are you blind to the rise of this in the US since Trump and UK since brexit? > Violence against medical professionals when patients feel Bombing abortion clinics comes to mind > The rise of an unelected dictator forming a cult of personality and the subsequent reinvigoration of anti-foreign, nativist han Chinese sentiment, and the increased suppression of minorities and dissent that has resulted. Change unelected to "unelected by the majority" in higly disputed elections countrywide with many cases of fraud and vote tampering and I can think of another country this applies to Anyway, why does the above mean there is no "American Dream" in China, when most the accusations you make can be levelled (in some form) to the US as well
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  Cherry-picking? Some of the objections are reasonably reflected back at the Western world, but most are nowhere to the degree perfected in China. War on Muslims (systematic destruction of Mosques etc); military conflict with Tibet (their own people?); the astonishing 'social credit score' system. Sure there may be an American Dream in China, if you line up with the acceptable profile of citizen. But the Dream is supposed to be for everybody; that's foundational to the idea.
- hnbroseph 7y ago
  > Anyway, why does the above mean there is no "American Dream" in China, when most the accusations you make can be levelled (in some form) to the US as well this seems fallacious. it's not clear how the various whataboutisms you're engaging in establishes or relates to "the american dream in china" actually existing or not.
hybrids 7y ago
I am no apologist for China, but the course of the American Dream itself was similarly colored by a "rose-tinted" view juxtaposed with less-than-ideal circumstances. One could look at for instance its original emergence in the 19th century after being primarily brought on by the 1848 revolutions in Europe, legalized chattel slavery still existed and manifest destiny would turn out spill a lot of blood in its wake, both that of natives, settlers, and soldiers. This, of course, ignores the emancipatory possibility of the American Dream then - for instance, the massive emigration to America and throughout its frontier that occurred in the 19th century provided much of the pretext for the actual dismantling of chattel slavery. The more modern, post-WWII imago of the American Dream of a booming economy and cute little suburbs was overlaid over antiquated Jim Crow laws and early Cold War saber-rattling that would accelerate into the greater turmoil of the '60s, which would turn out a tragedy more than anything. Many of the criticisms you put on China now have mirrors in a historical America. China and America are really both flip sides of the same coin. It is true that looking at China as a safe haven when America's economy and culture has become so anxiety-riden is silly and ignorant. China is able to rationalize itself with a liquefied idea "socialism" it never truly was able to understand in the first place, and has grown to content to treat the task of governing its people in similar kind to herding animals. I would not pin China's blame singularly on the CCP or Xi for that matter, but I would rather describe the CCP a symptom of modern capitalism. If one were to hypothetically "clean the CCP's house" with a new stock of younger legislators that weren't "beneficiaries of the Mao era" as you claim, than you would likely find them repeating the same regressions as their predecessors; never mind that Xi himself was a victim of the Cultural Revolution, considering that his sister was killed by student protesters and his father was jailed for 10 years. China's problems (more problems of contemporary society in general) extend beyond the Mao legacy, similar to how Leon Trotsky did not regard Stalinism in the Soviet Union as purely beginning and ending with the one man.
dang 7y ago
Please do not use HN for nationalistic flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by dbspin 7y ago

Barrin92 7y ago

I've seen this website pop up here a few times and the amount of pro-Chinese content together with apocalyptic stories about North America and Europe on it together with the self-proclaimed talk about a "post-liberal" future is pretty off. Is there information available on who funds this?

dbspin 7y ago
Hard to say. The mission statement seems to be an attempt to create a 'post liberal synthesis', which sounds like Tony Gidden's neoliberal 'third way', but is so no specific it could mean just about anything. https://palladiummag.com/2018/09/29/towards-the-post-liberal-synthesis/ https://palladiummag.com/2018/09/29/towards-the-post-liberal...

baal80spam 7y ago

What you wrote is very true indeed. Some time ago I saw a recommendation of this book on HN: https://www.amazon.com/have-been-harmonised-Kai-Strittmatter/dp/1913083004 https://www.amazon.com/have-been-harmonised-Kai-Strittmatter... It made me read it and even though I try to be up to date with world news - it's a true eye opener.

Reedx 7y ago

Yes, those are serious problems, but you're not painting a full picture either. Notably ignoring the fact that hundreds of millions of people in China have been pulled out of poverty in recent years. They're able to get big things done. Elon Musk recently commented that he was amazed how fast they're able to build things and said he's never seen anything like it. We are regressing in this aspect. We can't even get decent public transit built in the Bay Area or improve the homeless situation despite being one of the richest places in the world.

dbspin 7y ago
Not sure what your point is? India too has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, while remaining federated and to some extent democratic. The elevation of China's billions out of poverty has come through it's involvement with the marketplace of global capitalist democracies - not the other way around.
- oefrha 7y ago
  Indian and Chinese GDP were both ~$100 billion around 1970. In 2018, Indian GDP is $2.7 trillion whereas Chinese GDP is $13.6 trillion, five times the former (World Bank, nominal). The populations of the two are very close, so per capita GDP is also roughly 1:5. The PPP difference is smaller. No offense to the Indian people, but I always find it amusing when people use India as the counterexample to China to show "you don't need Socialism to achieve the same results." When it almost tells the exact opposite story. There's also this.[3] [1] https://data.worldbank.org/country/india https://data.worldbank.org/country/india [2] https://data.worldbank.org/country/china https://data.worldbank.org/country/china [3] https://web.archive.org/web/20160921084037/http://www.spectrezine.org/global/chomsky.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20160921084037/http://www.spectr...
  - dbspin 7y ago
    China is not in any sense socialist or even communist. It lacks free health care, public housing, and state service provision. It is neither internationalist nor collectivist. It's a hybrid single party ethno-nationalist capitalist state, or if you prefer a fascist oligarchy. The Chinese economy is overvalued, and economic growth is grinding to a halt despite massive government spending. https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3033564/china-doubles-value-infrastructure-project-approvals-stave https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3033564/c... Every western country is a counter example.

senorjazz 7y ago

> which not only completely ignores mistreatment of ethnic, religious and sexual minorities - from imprisonment but the US statistics on imprisonment of minorities is no better. > For example the frequent adulteration of food (including baby food) with poisons all major countries have scares and recalls due to contamination > The panopticon surveillance really? After all the details come out in the last 5 years, surveillance cannot be thrown at the Chinese alone. UK leads CCTV per population (or some metric). NSA data slurping revelations... > and the inevitable lack of reforms to public health and safety. why do you think the Chinese do not make improvements to public health and safety? Of course they do. > Increasing nationalism, police observation and 'patriotic' violent attacks on foreigners errr are you blind to the rise of this in the US since Trump and UK since brexit? > Violence against medical professionals when patients feel Bombing abortion clinics comes to mind > The rise of an unelected dictator forming a cult of personality and the subsequent reinvigoration of anti-foreign, nativist han Chinese sentiment, and the increased suppression of minorities and dissent that has resulted. Change unelected to "unelected by the majority" in higly disputed elections countrywide with many cases of fraud and vote tampering and I can think of another country this applies to Anyway, why does the above mean there is no "American Dream" in China, when most the accusations you make can be levelled (in some form) to the US as well

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
Cherry-picking? Some of the objections are reasonably reflected back at the Western world, but most are nowhere to the degree perfected in China. War on Muslims (systematic destruction of Mosques etc); military conflict with Tibet (their own people?); the astonishing 'social credit score' system. Sure there may be an American Dream in China, if you line up with the acceptable profile of citizen. But the Dream is supposed to be for everybody; that's foundational to the idea.
hnbroseph 7y ago
> Anyway, why does the above mean there is no "American Dream" in China, when most the accusations you make can be levelled (in some form) to the US as well this seems fallacious. it's not clear how the various whataboutisms you're engaging in establishes or relates to "the american dream in china" actually existing or not.

hybrids 7y ago

I am no apologist for China, but the course of the American Dream itself was similarly colored by a "rose-tinted" view juxtaposed with less-than-ideal circumstances. One could look at for instance its original emergence in the 19th century after being primarily brought on by the 1848 revolutions in Europe, legalized chattel slavery still existed and manifest destiny would turn out spill a lot of blood in its wake, both that of natives, settlers, and soldiers. This, of course, ignores the emancipatory possibility of the American Dream then - for instance, the massive emigration to America and throughout its frontier that occurred in the 19th century provided much of the pretext for the actual dismantling of chattel slavery. The more modern, post-WWII imago of the American Dream of a booming economy and cute little suburbs was overlaid over antiquated Jim Crow laws and early Cold War saber-rattling that would accelerate into the greater turmoil of the '60s, which would turn out a tragedy more than anything. Many of the criticisms you put on China now have mirrors in a historical America. China and America are really both flip sides of the same coin. It is true that looking at China as a safe haven when America's economy and culture has become so anxiety-riden is silly and ignorant. China is able to rationalize itself with a liquefied idea "socialism" it never truly was able to understand in the first place, and has grown to content to treat the task of governing its people in similar kind to herding animals. I would not pin China's blame singularly on the CCP or Xi for that matter, but I would rather describe the CCP a symptom of modern capitalism. If one were to hypothetically "clean the CCP's house" with a new stock of younger legislators that weren't "beneficiaries of the Mao era" as you claim, than you would likely find them repeating the same regressions as their predecessors; never mind that Xi himself was a victim of the Cultural Revolution, considering that his sister was killed by student protesters and his father was jailed for 10 years. China's problems (more problems of contemporary society in general) extend beyond the Mao legacy, similar to how Leon Trotsky did not regard Stalinism in the Soviet Union as purely beginning and ending with the one man.

dang 7y ago

Please do not use HN for nationalistic flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html