6 ms·

The American Dream Is Alive in China

22 points by Reedx 7y ago

strangattractor 7y ago
I know I have always dreamed of being thrown in prison for criticizing the government:0
- KingMachiavelli 7y ago
  The 50s are quite often described as the time that America had achieved the 'American Dream'. And during that time thousands of people were imprisoned and/or lost their jobs due to Kafkaesque trails performed by the House Un-American Activities Committee.
  - 99052882514569 7y ago
    The scale, intensity and length are just not comparable. It's like comparing the Gulag to modern American prison labour.
    - thawaway1837 7y ago
      If we are talking about that specific time period, then what China is doing now is hardly any worse than what was being done to African Americans in the US at the time. And the scale is absolutely comparable. The major difference, however, is that the US was still a democracy that had mechanisms to allow for things to be changed for the better. It’s hard to see what mechanisms for improvements exist in China.
      - 99052882514569 7y ago
        Sorry, not sure what it is we're comparing? 1950s segregation to the oppression of Uygurs, in which case no, in the 1950s the US was not running an all-encompassing dystopian surveillance state, mass reeducation camps and oppressive forced assimilation of African Americans? Or 1950s segregation to imprisonment and torture of political dissidents in general, in which case no, in the 1950s the US was not rounding up every Black activist and executing him or throwing him in jail for decades?
        senorjazz 7y ago
        > Or 1950s segregation to imprisonment and torture of political dissidents in general, in which case no, in the 1950s the US was not rounding up every Black activist and executing him or throwing him in jail for decades? Not on home soil perhaps. But from the 50s to at least the 80s, that was the general policy in Latin Amercia. Then for more recent you can look to the middle east for the mass round up of civilians, torture and decades long imprisonment without charge. Not exactly the same, but correlations exist, as they do for the parent comment you are replying to
  - senorjazz 7y ago
    > The 50s are quite often described as the time that America had achieved the 'American Dream'. white middle class America maybe, but certainly not "America"
TremendousJudge 7y ago
>Coverage I’ve read in American discourse focuses on the dystopian side of the Chinese government. Examples abound: from its oppression of Uyghurs, to its outright ban of many religious groups, to its increasingly aggressive influence in American political and social life—like the Blizzard and NBA cases over the last week. But over the last five years, this discourse, though often correct, has felt increasingly disconnected from my personal experiences in China and the more fundamental problems at hand. In particular, it fails to comment on the larger, more important context: how much better life has become for many Chinese people, China’s new self-confidence, and America’s struggle with development, optimism, and sovereignty. What the hell is this guy saying? "Oh sure, China has literal concentration camps, but as long as you're not there then it's just great!" >In many ways, China in the 2010s reminds me of what I’ve read of America in the 1950s: the country is powerful, economic development is booming, and people are optimistic about the future. "People" meaning "the ruling class". It was great living in America in the fifties, as long as you were a white dude with a job.
- ThinkBeat 7y ago
  I agree that there are many negative things that has done and still do. Including the things you name. As an American, though I think my country might be even more shameful, We have Gitmo. We have a country that lied into a war that killed at least 100.000s of people. Our treatment of asylum seekers now is certainly worth a dystopian movie or two. As far as the 1950s you are defining the ruling class as the ruling class and the middle class? I dont disagree with you about diversity but the middle class was much better off than it is today. Our ever-shrinking middle class and our ever getting richer oligarchs and the political class is contrasted to China's increasing middle class. But you go from zero it is easy to improve, and in the US we used to have a large middle class so it is easier to lose.
ryuukk_ 7y ago
life is good when 99% of the population are.. slaves :)
ng12 7y ago
This is the opposite of the American dream. Immigrants fled to the US for it's unprecedented social mobility and opportunity. Things being nice for the upper echelons of society has little to do with it.
bassman9000 7y ago
Yeah no, thanks. Sure, everything is nice for many people if you don't dare speak against the authority. Tomorrow you're on the wrong side of the fence. Good luck coming back. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/chinese-app-on-xis-ideology-allows-data-access-to-100-million-users-phones-report-says/2019/10/11/2d53bbae-eb4d-11e9-bafb-da248f8d5734_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/chinese-ap... https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurity-program-no-place-to-hide.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurit...
- 99052882514569 7y ago
  Not to mention that, once in a while, even people who don't dare speak against the authority get caught up and obliterated by the system. It's the nature of oppressive authoritarian systems where the rule of law is absent. You don't necessarily need to do anything for it to single you out. On the topic of the 'American Dream': the more successful you are, the more likely it is in such a system that you don't pay off the right guy in time, or don't surrender enough of your wealth to a well-connected guy who wants a piece of it. And off to the Gulags you go, sharing a cell with the 'political prisoner' who pointed to as a cautionary tale of why you must not speak out and criticize the government. Wait, does that mean you're also a 'political prisoner' now too?
  - ThinkBeat 7y ago
    Assange, Snowden, Manning.. Speaking truth to power is not without its risks in the US. The list can be made much larger, but then it needs to explain each case, whereas the ones above most people know about. You can say this is not speaking truth to power, it was leaks that are different but not really. Concentration camps in China, might be a secret. I dont think they are but what goes on in side of them is meant to be, breaking the government's repression of information is a good thing. Just like telling the world what the US really does is good for our country.
    - bassman9000 7y ago
      Tell me of another superpower or large country with better basic rights protection than the US. Perfect? By no means. Far better than China? Absolutely.
dbspin 7y ago
This is a bizarrely rose tinted view of China, which not only completely ignores mistreatment of ethnic, religious and sexual minorities - from imprisonment and 'reeducation to literal organ legging; but also the everyday horrors of life under an authoritarian dictatorship. For example the frequent adulteration of food (including baby food) with poisons. The panopticon surveillance and control of movement which prevents the poor and those living in rural areas from travelling within their own country. Restrictions on free speech, not only political in nature but critical of any aspects of civil society - and the inevitable lack of reforms to public health and safety. Increasing nationalism, police observation and 'patriotic' violent attacks on foreigners. Violence against medical professionals when patients feel (rightly or wrongly) that they haven't received the treatment they should have. The rise of an unelected dictator forming a cult of personality and the subsequent reinvigoration of anti-foreign, nativist han Chinese sentiment, and the increased suppression of minorities and dissent that has resulted. The thousands of 'incidents' of protests (attempted rebellions) that are ruthlessly crushed each year, while being actively hidden by Chinese media and social media. The incredibly successful censorship of both China's own history and any discourse about political reform. On and on. China is a spectacular case of all the ills that can befall a centralised authoritarian regime when people cannot directly criticise their government. This article seems to advocate 'learning from China' in a way that implies replicating their authoritarian control. It reminds me of a bizarre TED talk a few years ago that celebrated the supposedly effective meritocracy of the CCP - just before it became one man dictatorship - while ignoring the fact that the CCP leadership is almost exclusively composed of the children and grandchildren of the communist party leaders that supported Mao. It is in short, thinly veiled propaganda.
- Barrin92 7y ago
  I've seen this website pop up here a few times and the amount of pro-Chinese content together with apocalyptic stories about North America and Europe on it together with the self-proclaimed talk about a "post-liberal" future is pretty off. Is there information available on who funds this?
  - dbspin 7y ago
helen___keller 7y ago
While I disagree pretty heavily with the author's central thesis (and this thesis relies on an ill-defined "american dream" that the author roughly describes as the period of postwar growth & prosperity for middle/upper class americans in the 1950s), I do have to agree with this part of the author's conclusion: > China’s success scares me. There is something deeply disconcerting about watching China surpass America in the ways it is. China is transforming fishing villages into major industrial cities, while we fail to build high-speed rail or new housing. How are we going to catch up? Right now China is still high off a period of heavy growth and industrialization. How China can handle easing out of heavy growth in the next 2-6 decades will show how real the Chinese dream is, but my personal fear (as a person who believes strongly in western liberalism) is that a rich authoritarian country can unlock a world of efficiency that the western world can only dream of, leaving our standard of living in the dust by comparison I fear that this will lead to an era of global authoritarianism as countries around the world seek to emulate the success. As a rail enthusiast, watching China build huge subway networks and a massive web of HSR almost overnight while my very rich western city struggles to extend a century old trolley by a few miles in the same timeframe, it really feels bad.
- dbspin 7y ago
  I wonder about this. By all accounts construction of homes in China is so haphazard buildings frequently become uninhabitable, and occasionally literally collapse within a few years. Clearly China has a lot of money and has exhibited the capacity for some large scale construction projects. But to what extent it is merely attempting to outrun a construction bubble, and ensnare developing world countries in debt; versus building a sustainable economic model, is questionable. At the bottom end, manufacturing is moving out of China to countries like Vietnam. While high tech manufacturing is still China's forte, this is largely confined to special economic zones like Shenzien, and reliant on lack of enforcement of patent and copyright, as well as government subsidies for import and exports of components and manufactured goods. We're all familiar with the impossibly cheap components and electronic devices available through services like Ali. I'm not sure any of this is sustainable - whether in an environmental sense, or economically. There is much that is illusory about the Chinese economy, and the recent clamp down of state control may well be an effort for the CCP to maintain control during the inevitable economic collapse they see coming.
pixelperfect 7y ago
The author of this article seems to anticipate that the growth China has experienced during the past few decades will continue for the foreseeable future. I am doubtful. International corporations continue moving manufacturing to other countries. China's total debt / GDP ratio keeps rising and will eventually be unsustainable. Population is aging. Automation will displace many manufacturing jobs. I don't think China's future is totally bleak, but it isn't rosy either.

22 points by Reedx 7y ago

strangattractor 7y ago

I know I have always dreamed of being thrown in prison for criticizing the government:0

KingMachiavelli 7y ago
The 50s are quite often described as the time that America had achieved the 'American Dream'. And during that time thousands of people were imprisoned and/or lost their jobs due to Kafkaesque trails performed by the House Un-American Activities Committee.
- 99052882514569 7y ago
  The scale, intensity and length are just not comparable. It's like comparing the Gulag to modern American prison labour.
  - thawaway1837 7y ago
    If we are talking about that specific time period, then what China is doing now is hardly any worse than what was being done to African Americans in the US at the time. And the scale is absolutely comparable. The major difference, however, is that the US was still a democracy that had mechanisms to allow for things to be changed for the better. It’s hard to see what mechanisms for improvements exist in China.
    - 99052882514569 7y ago
      Sorry, not sure what it is we're comparing? 1950s segregation to the oppression of Uygurs, in which case no, in the 1950s the US was not running an all-encompassing dystopian surveillance state, mass reeducation camps and oppressive forced assimilation of African Americans? Or 1950s segregation to imprisonment and torture of political dissidents in general, in which case no, in the 1950s the US was not rounding up every Black activist and executing him or throwing him in jail for decades?
      - senorjazz 7y ago
        > Or 1950s segregation to imprisonment and torture of political dissidents in general, in which case no, in the 1950s the US was not rounding up every Black activist and executing him or throwing him in jail for decades? Not on home soil perhaps. But from the 50s to at least the 80s, that was the general policy in Latin Amercia. Then for more recent you can look to the middle east for the mass round up of civilians, torture and decades long imprisonment without charge. Not exactly the same, but correlations exist, as they do for the parent comment you are replying to
- senorjazz 7y ago
  > The 50s are quite often described as the time that America had achieved the 'American Dream'. white middle class America maybe, but certainly not "America"

TremendousJudge 7y ago

>Coverage I’ve read in American discourse focuses on the dystopian side of the Chinese government. Examples abound: from its oppression of Uyghurs, to its outright ban of many religious groups, to its increasingly aggressive influence in American political and social life—like the Blizzard and NBA cases over the last week. But over the last five years, this discourse, though often correct, has felt increasingly disconnected from my personal experiences in China and the more fundamental problems at hand. In particular, it fails to comment on the larger, more important context: how much better life has become for many Chinese people, China’s new self-confidence, and America’s struggle with development, optimism, and sovereignty. What the hell is this guy saying? "Oh sure, China has literal concentration camps, but as long as you're not there then it's just great!" >In many ways, China in the 2010s reminds me of what I’ve read of America in the 1950s: the country is powerful, economic development is booming, and people are optimistic about the future. "People" meaning "the ruling class". It was great living in America in the fifties, as long as you were a white dude with a job.

ThinkBeat 7y ago
I agree that there are many negative things that has done and still do. Including the things you name. As an American, though I think my country might be even more shameful, We have Gitmo. We have a country that lied into a war that killed at least 100.000s of people. Our treatment of asylum seekers now is certainly worth a dystopian movie or two. As far as the 1950s you are defining the ruling class as the ruling class and the middle class? I dont disagree with you about diversity but the middle class was much better off than it is today. Our ever-shrinking middle class and our ever getting richer oligarchs and the political class is contrasted to China's increasing middle class. But you go from zero it is easy to improve, and in the US we used to have a large middle class so it is easier to lose.

ryuukk_ 7y ago

life is good when 99% of the population are.. slaves :)

ng12 7y ago

This is the opposite of the American dream. Immigrants fled to the US for it's unprecedented social mobility and opportunity. Things being nice for the upper echelons of society has little to do with it.

bassman9000 7y ago

Yeah no, thanks. Sure, everything is nice for many people if you don't dare speak against the authority. Tomorrow you're on the wrong side of the fence. Good luck coming back. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/chinese-app-on-xis-ideology-allows-data-access-to-100-million-users-phones-report-says/2019/10/11/2d53bbae-eb4d-11e9-bafb-da248f8d5734_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/chinese-ap... https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurity-program-no-place-to-hide.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurit...

99052882514569 7y ago
Not to mention that, once in a while, even people who don't dare speak against the authority get caught up and obliterated by the system. It's the nature of oppressive authoritarian systems where the rule of law is absent. You don't necessarily need to do anything for it to single you out. On the topic of the 'American Dream': the more successful you are, the more likely it is in such a system that you don't pay off the right guy in time, or don't surrender enough of your wealth to a well-connected guy who wants a piece of it. And off to the Gulags you go, sharing a cell with the 'political prisoner' who pointed to as a cautionary tale of why you must not speak out and criticize the government. Wait, does that mean you're also a 'political prisoner' now too?
- ThinkBeat 7y ago
  Assange, Snowden, Manning.. Speaking truth to power is not without its risks in the US. The list can be made much larger, but then it needs to explain each case, whereas the ones above most people know about. You can say this is not speaking truth to power, it was leaks that are different but not really. Concentration camps in China, might be a secret. I dont think they are but what goes on in side of them is meant to be, breaking the government's repression of information is a good thing. Just like telling the world what the US really does is good for our country.
  - bassman9000 7y ago
    Tell me of another superpower or large country with better basic rights protection than the US. Perfect? By no means. Far better than China? Absolutely.

dbspin 7y ago

This is a bizarrely rose tinted view of China, which not only completely ignores mistreatment of ethnic, religious and sexual minorities - from imprisonment and 'reeducation to literal organ legging; but also the everyday horrors of life under an authoritarian dictatorship. For example the frequent adulteration of food (including baby food) with poisons. The panopticon surveillance and control of movement which prevents the poor and those living in rural areas from travelling within their own country. Restrictions on free speech, not only political in nature but critical of any aspects of civil society - and the inevitable lack of reforms to public health and safety. Increasing nationalism, police observation and 'patriotic' violent attacks on foreigners. Violence against medical professionals when patients feel (rightly or wrongly) that they haven't received the treatment they should have. The rise of an unelected dictator forming a cult of personality and the subsequent reinvigoration of anti-foreign, nativist han Chinese sentiment, and the increased suppression of minorities and dissent that has resulted. The thousands of 'incidents' of protests (attempted rebellions) that are ruthlessly crushed each year, while being actively hidden by Chinese media and social media. The incredibly successful censorship of both China's own history and any discourse about political reform. On and on. China is a spectacular case of all the ills that can befall a centralised authoritarian regime when people cannot directly criticise their government. This article seems to advocate 'learning from China' in a way that implies replicating their authoritarian control. It reminds me of a bizarre TED talk a few years ago that celebrated the supposedly effective meritocracy of the CCP - just before it became one man dictatorship - while ignoring the fact that the CCP leadership is almost exclusively composed of the children and grandchildren of the communist party leaders that supported Mao. It is in short, thinly veiled propaganda.

Barrin92 7y ago
I've seen this website pop up here a few times and the amount of pro-Chinese content together with apocalyptic stories about North America and Europe on it together with the self-proclaimed talk about a "post-liberal" future is pretty off. Is there information available on who funds this?
- dbspin 7y ago

helen___keller 7y ago

While I disagree pretty heavily with the author's central thesis (and this thesis relies on an ill-defined "american dream" that the author roughly describes as the period of postwar growth & prosperity for middle/upper class americans in the 1950s), I do have to agree with this part of the author's conclusion: > China’s success scares me. There is something deeply disconcerting about watching China surpass America in the ways it is. China is transforming fishing villages into major industrial cities, while we fail to build high-speed rail or new housing. How are we going to catch up? Right now China is still high off a period of heavy growth and industrialization. How China can handle easing out of heavy growth in the next 2-6 decades will show how real the Chinese dream is, but my personal fear (as a person who believes strongly in western liberalism) is that a rich authoritarian country can unlock a world of efficiency that the western world can only dream of, leaving our standard of living in the dust by comparison I fear that this will lead to an era of global authoritarianism as countries around the world seek to emulate the success. As a rail enthusiast, watching China build huge subway networks and a massive web of HSR almost overnight while my very rich western city struggles to extend a century old trolley by a few miles in the same timeframe, it really feels bad.

dbspin 7y ago
I wonder about this. By all accounts construction of homes in China is so haphazard buildings frequently become uninhabitable, and occasionally literally collapse within a few years. Clearly China has a lot of money and has exhibited the capacity for some large scale construction projects. But to what extent it is merely attempting to outrun a construction bubble, and ensnare developing world countries in debt; versus building a sustainable economic model, is questionable. At the bottom end, manufacturing is moving out of China to countries like Vietnam. While high tech manufacturing is still China's forte, this is largely confined to special economic zones like Shenzien, and reliant on lack of enforcement of patent and copyright, as well as government subsidies for import and exports of components and manufactured goods. We're all familiar with the impossibly cheap components and electronic devices available through services like Ali. I'm not sure any of this is sustainable - whether in an environmental sense, or economically. There is much that is illusory about the Chinese economy, and the recent clamp down of state control may well be an effort for the CCP to maintain control during the inevitable economic collapse they see coming.

pixelperfect 7y ago

The author of this article seems to anticipate that the growth China has experienced during the past few decades will continue for the foreseeable future. I am doubtful. International corporations continue moving manufacturing to other countries. China's total debt / GDP ratio keeps rising and will eventually be unsustainable. Population is aging. Automation will displace many manufacturing jobs. I don't think China's future is totally bleak, but it isn't rosy either.