4 ms·

I seriously believe that the last time any real thought went into usability in UI was with Windows 95 - and even that wasn't free from form-over-function issues

by Crinus 7y ago

I seriously believe that the last time any real thought went into usability in UI was with Windows 95 - and even that wasn't free from form-over-function issues. In Windows 3.0 it was meant that only elements you could interact with the mouse would have a beveled 3D appearance, so people would know just by looking at a screen what they would be able to interact with. However it wasn't fully followed - checkboxes, radio buttons and input boxes were flat. Instead of addressing that Windows 95 made everything 3D. Still, every time i hear one of those issues with "modern" UIs, it always gives me the impression that these are issues that wouldn't exist with a Win95-styled UI. Sometimes i fantasize about working on something like that for Linux (not out of any special Linux love, just it is the only OS where thanks to X11 you can make fully custom UIs and still be practical), but fix all these inconsistencies.

cwilby 7y ago
What are your thoughts on KDE in regards to an accessible Linux distro?
- Crinus 7y ago
  I haven't really thought much about accessibility TBH, especially around KDE. At least not outside some basic stuff, like color schemes and the like. I haven't used KDE much but from my little use i found it better than GNOME - mainly thanks to Qt - but still leans a bit too much into the flat trend (especially some newer things that use QML instead of Qt Widgets). Still, if i absolutely had to choose between the KDE and GNOME i'd choose KDE. Fortunately there are more choices and if i had to go with a desktop environment that currently exists (as opposed to my fantasy one :-P) i'd go with XFCE. Though in practice i use Window Maker, but that is mainly out of habit as it doesn't exactly match what i'm talking about. But I do use Thunar as a file manager and Mousepad as my notepad-like text editor.
nine_k 7y ago
There are a few good GTK themes imitating Windows UI style. You can take one of them and improve.
- Crinus 7y ago
  Themes are not enough (f.e. there isn't much you can do from a theme when it comes to an application using a header bar instead of a menu bar) and i wasn't talking about imitating Windows' style (as i said it is inconsistent). The way i see it, things that can be interacted with the mouse should have specific styling rules (not necessarily 100% the same), things where you can input text with the keyboard should have their own styling rules that make them distinguishable and things that are static should also have their own rules. Things that group other things (group boxes, tabs, etc) should have their own rules, things that represent multiple options that are visible at the same time should have their own styling rules that clearly show the selected/unselected state. Some of these rules should not interfere with others since some elements may need to mix them (e.g. tabs can be interacted with the mouse, group elements and show multiple options that are visible at the same time). There also other cases that may be helpful, e.g., things that you can navigate to using the Tab key (buttons in a dialog) may be styled differently than things that you can only navigate via clicking (buttons in a toolbar). Similarly with shortcut keys - Windows made the Alt+<key> letter not be underlined unless you press alt, which i always found a bad idea. On the contrary, i'd like to see not just Alt+<key> be visible in a dialog but also other keys that would affect the dialog, like placing a small graphic for Return and Escape in buttons that are equivalent to these keys (nextstep had the return graphic, but AFAIK not the escape thing). Of course i have not a clear idea of exactly what i'd do, these are just rough ideas. It is something i'd explore if i ever worked on such a thing :-). And yeah, some of it might be information overload and/or look ugly but i think it is better than the information underload we get with current looks-over-anything-else approach :-P.
dls2016 7y ago
> I seriously believe that the last time any real thought went into usability in UI was with Windows 95 Way to throw Bob under the bus...
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  You know, speaking of Bob, one thing I've been meaning to experiment with is a Minecraft-based desktop UI. I'm completely serious. Minecraft is relatively intuitive, the space is completely malleable, human minds are already tuned to navigating such spaces... There's even some precedent in Bob and PSDoom, among others.
  - mumblemumble 7y ago
    A couple months ago, after 5-6 years of not playing it, I installed Minecraft again fiddled around for a week or so. It took me a good day or two to get a solid grasp on all the UI changes that had happened since I stopped playing. I had to get on Google just to figure out how to eat. I agree that it's relatively intuitive. Emphasis on the "relatively" part - I'm thinking here that it's intuitive compared to the UX changes and kippleization that iOS, Google web apps, things like that have undergone over the same time period. That's not exactly a high bar to clear.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
      I'm specifically talking about moving around and building things in the space, not so much the specific "game ui" elements.
- marcosdumay 7y ago
  Wait, does one even have throw it? I though it was done before release.
rkagerer 7y ago
I miss good old fashioned menus. It's one reason I liked the PalmOS UX so much better than iOS and Android. Menus are so wonderfully discoverable. The first thing I did when opening a new app (on PDA or desktop) was drop each one down to find out what tools I have available. Like a pilot looking over his cockpit or a craftsman laying out his toolbox. It seems a lot of the last 10 years of UI "progress" has been about burying things in order to "simplify" (aka dumb down) interfaces for audiences developers think of as kindergartners. Zen of Palm showed us streamlined, clutter-free minimalism is possible to achieve without making your app stupid.

by Crinus 7y ago

cwilby 7y ago

What are your thoughts on KDE in regards to an accessible Linux distro?

Crinus 7y ago
I haven't really thought much about accessibility TBH, especially around KDE. At least not outside some basic stuff, like color schemes and the like. I haven't used KDE much but from my little use i found it better than GNOME - mainly thanks to Qt - but still leans a bit too much into the flat trend (especially some newer things that use QML instead of Qt Widgets). Still, if i absolutely had to choose between the KDE and GNOME i'd choose KDE. Fortunately there are more choices and if i had to go with a desktop environment that currently exists (as opposed to my fantasy one :-P) i'd go with XFCE. Though in practice i use Window Maker, but that is mainly out of habit as it doesn't exactly match what i'm talking about. But I do use Thunar as a file manager and Mousepad as my notepad-like text editor.

nine_k 7y ago

There are a few good GTK themes imitating Windows UI style. You can take one of them and improve.

Crinus 7y ago
Themes are not enough (f.e. there isn't much you can do from a theme when it comes to an application using a header bar instead of a menu bar) and i wasn't talking about imitating Windows' style (as i said it is inconsistent). The way i see it, things that can be interacted with the mouse should have specific styling rules (not necessarily 100% the same), things where you can input text with the keyboard should have their own styling rules that make them distinguishable and things that are static should also have their own rules. Things that group other things (group boxes, tabs, etc) should have their own rules, things that represent multiple options that are visible at the same time should have their own styling rules that clearly show the selected/unselected state. Some of these rules should not interfere with others since some elements may need to mix them (e.g. tabs can be interacted with the mouse, group elements and show multiple options that are visible at the same time). There also other cases that may be helpful, e.g., things that you can navigate to using the Tab key (buttons in a dialog) may be styled differently than things that you can only navigate via clicking (buttons in a toolbar). Similarly with shortcut keys - Windows made the Alt+<key> letter not be underlined unless you press alt, which i always found a bad idea. On the contrary, i'd like to see not just Alt+<key> be visible in a dialog but also other keys that would affect the dialog, like placing a small graphic for Return and Escape in buttons that are equivalent to these keys (nextstep had the return graphic, but AFAIK not the escape thing). Of course i have not a clear idea of exactly what i'd do, these are just rough ideas. It is something i'd explore if i ever worked on such a thing :-). And yeah, some of it might be information overload and/or look ugly but i think it is better than the information underload we get with current looks-over-anything-else approach :-P.

dls2016 7y ago

> I seriously believe that the last time any real thought went into usability in UI was with Windows 95 Way to throw Bob under the bus...

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
You know, speaking of Bob, one thing I've been meaning to experiment with is a Minecraft-based desktop UI. I'm completely serious. Minecraft is relatively intuitive, the space is completely malleable, human minds are already tuned to navigating such spaces... There's even some precedent in Bob and PSDoom, among others.
- mumblemumble 7y ago
  A couple months ago, after 5-6 years of not playing it, I installed Minecraft again fiddled around for a week or so. It took me a good day or two to get a solid grasp on all the UI changes that had happened since I stopped playing. I had to get on Google just to figure out how to eat. I agree that it's relatively intuitive. Emphasis on the "relatively" part - I'm thinking here that it's intuitive compared to the UX changes and kippleization that iOS, Google web apps, things like that have undergone over the same time period. That's not exactly a high bar to clear.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    I'm specifically talking about moving around and building things in the space, not so much the specific "game ui" elements.
marcosdumay 7y ago
Wait, does one even have throw it? I though it was done before release.

rkagerer 7y ago

I miss good old fashioned menus. It's one reason I liked the PalmOS UX so much better than iOS and Android. Menus are so wonderfully discoverable. The first thing I did when opening a new app (on PDA or desktop) was drop each one down to find out what tools I have available. Like a pilot looking over his cockpit or a craftsman laying out his toolbox. It seems a lot of the last 10 years of UI "progress" has been about burying things in order to "simplify" (aka dumb down) interfaces for audiences developers think of as kindergartners. Zen of Palm showed us streamlined, clutter-free minimalism is possible to achieve without making your app stupid.