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No, it's incorrect to say that running an email server requires just "a bit more work". Google basically no longer allows low volume servers to send mail. I wr

No, it's incorrect to say that running an email server requires just "a bit more work". Google basically no longer allows low volume servers to send mail. I wrote more about this here: https://www.attejuvonen.fi/dont-send-email-from-your-own-server/ https://www.attejuvonen.fi/dont-send-email-from-your-own-ser...

PopeDotNinja 7y ago
Sounds like there's a niche business and/or OSS project there. Create gmail accounts. Install email send bot on email server. Send messages to Gmail accounts. Figure out how to avoid spam.
- dest 7y ago
  Won't this be exploited by spammers?
- baobabKoodaa 7y ago
  A ton of services like this exist. For example, Postmark is specialized in sending transactional mail past Gmail's spam filters.
Avamander 7y ago
My low volume server can send mail very nicely. You can't however do your job half-assed, lack of strong SPF/TLS/DKIM isn't okay from both Google's and anti-spam perspective.
- throwaway2048 7y ago
  How are you verifying this? I encourage you to try sending to a gmail address you have never sent to before, I virtually guarantee you are going to end up spamboxed. I know lots of people that run low volume personal type servers, many have claimed that gmail doesn't spambox them, but they were always testing on a (handful of) personal account(s), when I got them to check with an account they had never mailed before, they were spam boxed literally 100% of the time. Properly setup, and strict FCrDNS, DMARC, DKIM, SPF, TLS and a clean IP and an old domain that have both never sent spam are absolutely not enough to avoid gmail's spambox.
  - Avamander 7y ago
    I have verified it by helping people sign up for the small service I run and seeing the e-mails pop in their primary inbox. I guess I might be lucky then shrug.
- sneak 7y ago
  Doing all of that from a popular low-cost hosting provider like Hetzner is still insufficient to be able to send emails to new contacts. You still end up in spam.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - vbezhenar 7y ago
    How do I choose provider? I checked my IP via talosintelligence.com and it seems that my /24 subnet is mostly neutral with 1 good. Using vultr.
- baobabKoodaa 7y ago
  If you would have actually read the link in the post you're replying to, you would know that Gmail is not accepting mail from me despite that I've spent a huge amount of time in verifying that everything is configured correctly. Also: please stop spreading unsubstantiated claims about your magical server magically sending mail past Gmail's spam filters. There's virtually no chance of that being true, and if it somehow was true, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
  - perennate 7y ago
    > Also: please stop spreading unsubstantiated claims about your magical server magically sending mail past Gmail's spam filters. There's virtually no chance of that being true, and if it somehow was true, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm sure most people who run low-volume mail servers here have no problems sending to Gmail. I don't know why you think this is an extraordinary claim -- I can understand that they often block legitimate mail like in your case, but that doesn't mean that everyone has the same issue. I have occasional issues sending to Gmail but most of the time they accept it and don't mark it spam.
    - throwaway2048 7y ago
      >I'm sure most people who run low-volume mail servers here have no problems sending to Gmail. Based on direct experience and >testing< (I have talked to about 20 people with personal mail servers about this, and got them to attempt to send me email, on an account that had never interacted with their domain before), 100% of their emails were spam boxed. Lots of people test gmail with their personal accounts, and think that email to gmail in general is delivered. In my experience, it basically never is if you are a small sender.
    - baobabKoodaa 7y ago
      > I'm sure most people who run low-volume mail servers here have no problems sending to Gmail. I don't know why you think this is an extraordinary claim Where are all these magical people with these magical abilities? How curious that not a single one of them is able to post any kind of evidence to support these incredulous claims. And funny how my comments on HN are getting downvoted and hidden when I ask for proof.
- vcanales 7y ago
  Same here. I also installed https://mailinabox.email https://mailinabox.email on a server and can send email to gmail recipients without trouble. I had some trouble with one of my domains a couple of years ago but it was only related to misconfiguration on my side.
  - baobabKoodaa 7y ago
    Can you show proof for these claims?
massaman_yams 7y ago
And if you read the rest of that mailop thread, you'll see that the broader IP reputation of the /24 where your IP is located is a key part of whether or not your email gets delivered. I would venture to guess that a substantial portion of people reporting issues delivering at small scale are sending from a low-reputation netblock. (Assuming auth is all set up optimally.) So it's not that it's not possible to send at low volume, it's just that most people don't know to look at the netblock, it's hard to evaluate netblock reputation, and it's not always possible to select a preferred netblock within a given provider (especially VPS providers with low-cost options). The bottom line is: it's hard to run your own mail server, and much of the reason for the success of services like Sendgrid is a) it's easier to set up auth properly with most of them, and b) they actively manage the email reputation of their netblocks (though some do this better than others). If you're approaching things from a practical perspective instead of making this your hill to die on, you just use an email service provider, and for the vast majority of senders, life is a little bit easier. There's plenty of ESPs to pick from, and there's a very good chance you can find a free one that delivers better than an average VPS or IP of a residential ISP.

PopeDotNinja 7y ago

Sounds like there's a niche business and/or OSS project there. Create gmail accounts. Install email send bot on email server. Send messages to Gmail accounts. Figure out how to avoid spam.

dest 7y ago
Won't this be exploited by spammers?
baobabKoodaa 7y ago
A ton of services like this exist. For example, Postmark is specialized in sending transactional mail past Gmail's spam filters.

Avamander 7y ago

My low volume server can send mail very nicely. You can't however do your job half-assed, lack of strong SPF/TLS/DKIM isn't okay from both Google's and anti-spam perspective.

throwaway2048 7y ago
How are you verifying this? I encourage you to try sending to a gmail address you have never sent to before, I virtually guarantee you are going to end up spamboxed. I know lots of people that run low volume personal type servers, many have claimed that gmail doesn't spambox them, but they were always testing on a (handful of) personal account(s), when I got them to check with an account they had never mailed before, they were spam boxed literally 100% of the time. Properly setup, and strict FCrDNS, DMARC, DKIM, SPF, TLS and a clean IP and an old domain that have both never sent spam are absolutely not enough to avoid gmail's spambox.
- Avamander 7y ago
  I have verified it by helping people sign up for the small service I run and seeing the e-mails pop in their primary inbox. I guess I might be lucky then shrug.
sneak 7y ago
Doing all of that from a popular low-cost hosting provider like Hetzner is still insufficient to be able to send emails to new contacts. You still end up in spam.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- vbezhenar 7y ago
  How do I choose provider? I checked my IP via talosintelligence.com and it seems that my /24 subnet is mostly neutral with 1 good. Using vultr.
baobabKoodaa 7y ago
If you would have actually read the link in the post you're replying to, you would know that Gmail is not accepting mail from me despite that I've spent a huge amount of time in verifying that everything is configured correctly. Also: please stop spreading unsubstantiated claims about your magical server magically sending mail past Gmail's spam filters. There's virtually no chance of that being true, and if it somehow was true, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
- perennate 7y ago
  > Also: please stop spreading unsubstantiated claims about your magical server magically sending mail past Gmail's spam filters. There's virtually no chance of that being true, and if it somehow was true, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm sure most people who run low-volume mail servers here have no problems sending to Gmail. I don't know why you think this is an extraordinary claim -- I can understand that they often block legitimate mail like in your case, but that doesn't mean that everyone has the same issue. I have occasional issues sending to Gmail but most of the time they accept it and don't mark it spam.
  - throwaway2048 7y ago
    >I'm sure most people who run low-volume mail servers here have no problems sending to Gmail. Based on direct experience and >testing< (I have talked to about 20 people with personal mail servers about this, and got them to attempt to send me email, on an account that had never interacted with their domain before), 100% of their emails were spam boxed. Lots of people test gmail with their personal accounts, and think that email to gmail in general is delivered. In my experience, it basically never is if you are a small sender.
  - baobabKoodaa 7y ago
    > I'm sure most people who run low-volume mail servers here have no problems sending to Gmail. I don't know why you think this is an extraordinary claim Where are all these magical people with these magical abilities? How curious that not a single one of them is able to post any kind of evidence to support these incredulous claims. And funny how my comments on HN are getting downvoted and hidden when I ask for proof.
vcanales 7y ago
Same here. I also installed https://mailinabox.email https://mailinabox.email on a server and can send email to gmail recipients without trouble. I had some trouble with one of my domains a couple of years ago but it was only related to misconfiguration on my side.
- baobabKoodaa 7y ago
  Can you show proof for these claims?

massaman_yams 7y ago

And if you read the rest of that mailop thread, you'll see that the broader IP reputation of the /24 where your IP is located is a key part of whether or not your email gets delivered. I would venture to guess that a substantial portion of people reporting issues delivering at small scale are sending from a low-reputation netblock. (Assuming auth is all set up optimally.) So it's not that it's not possible to send at low volume, it's just that most people don't know to look at the netblock, it's hard to evaluate netblock reputation, and it's not always possible to select a preferred netblock within a given provider (especially VPS providers with low-cost options). The bottom line is: it's hard to run your own mail server, and much of the reason for the success of services like Sendgrid is a) it's easier to set up auth properly with most of them, and b) they actively manage the email reputation of their netblocks (though some do this better than others). If you're approaching things from a practical perspective instead of making this your hill to die on, you just use an email service provider, and for the vast majority of senders, life is a little bit easier. There's plenty of ESPs to pick from, and there's a very good chance you can find a free one that delivers better than an average VPS or IP of a residential ISP.