8 ms·

> If we exaggerate the present and future value of the stock market, then as a society we may invest too much in business start-ups and expansions, and too litt

> If we exaggerate the present and future value of the stock market, then as a society we may invest too much in business start-ups and expansions, and too little in infrastructure, education, and other forms of human capital. Robert Shiller, Irrational Exuberance Populism is here to stay (both of the left kind and of the right kind), until the root cause is addressed: income inequality. It's reprehensible to have life expectancy decreased in a first world country. In fact, because this is happening perhaps we should contend with the fact that America may be, as of recently, a third world country? There's a reason why Ray Dalio, the most successful hedge fund manager of all times calls this problem "a national emergency" that may be "an existential risk to United States".

pietrovismara 7y ago
Compared to most European countries, US doesn't really feel like a first world country anymore. As a lower class member, your life would be drastically worse in US than Europe. As a middle class member it would also be much easier to lose your position, just have some health issue and you'll see how fast it takes to burn your life savings.
- _iyig 7y ago
  >As a middle class member it would also be much easier to lose your position, just have some health issue and you'll see how fast it takes to burn your life savings. I am currently in that exact position. I have very bad RSI and can no longer write software full-time. On better days, I can drive and do errands. I've spend roughly $40k out of pocket on treatment so far, and my COBRA health insurance runs out in a year. I had looked into speech-to-text, but now I have bad TMJ syndrome and talking is difficult. I'm honestly very afraid for my future.
  - skinnymuch 7y ago
    Damn I know someone in SV who never types on a keyboard. Everything is speech to text. However if you’re getting issues with your mouth too. I’m really sorry.
  - yardie 7y ago
    I’m a developer with mild RSI. I moved from pure software dev to devops. There is still some coding but most of it is automated. Now I’m mostly point and click.
- seibelj 7y ago
  > At the end of 2016, the rate of unemployment among young people was 42.91% [in Spain] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_unemployment_in_Spain#Current_statistics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_unemployment_in_Spain#... Not everything is unicorns and roses in Europe. They have massive structural issues.
  - point78 7y ago
    Those are ages 15 - 24 and the numbers are a little better now. Cost of living is so low where unemployment is highest that it's not the end of the world. Still free health care and education.
    - suaveybloke 7y ago
      Pedantic point I know - but it's only 'free' at the point of access, it still has to be paid for by the taxpayer.
      - marcosdumay 7y ago
        Well, it isn't paid by the unemployed, and it doesn't impose exorbitant costs to unlucky people.
        TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
        Or bankrupt anyone.
      - dijit 7y ago
        Heh, Ben Shapiro likes to make a point of "liberals" expecting his wife to work for free. Yes, in the majority of societies "free" healthcare is free at point of access and subsidised by taxes. Much like trash collection or road renovations. It's underlying infrastructure for a healthy society. FWIW the US actually pays more taxes towards healthcare than europe, but that's because your medical industry is price fixing and gauging.[0] [0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/16/americans-already-pay-gigantic-hidden-health-care-tax-economists-say/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/16/americans...
- helpPeople 7y ago
  I felt the opposite when I visited Europe. Everything is small in Europe, people seem to have bare minimums. I suppose it's all about perception. Edit- it seems like it depends on which quality metrics you use. I used "Stuff", other users choose life expectancy, and vacation time.
  - ilikehurdles 7y ago
    The amount of vacation time one receives and the amount of money one spends on health care and education isn’t something that can be chalked up to perception.
  - tjr225 7y ago
    And yet most European countries have a greater life expectancy than the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe... If you consider "life" as a bare minimum, we are worse off.
  - Sharlin 7y ago
    Indeed. My perception is that well-off Americans have ridiculously excessive unsustainable lifestyles, with superfluously large cars, houses, whatever. And at the same time your poor have much less than those bare minimums that you mention.
    - weberc2 7y ago
      It’s not just the very wealthy. The middle class in America also enjoy a much nicer standard of living than in Europe. Have a gander at the cost of living indices and there are very few categories where the US doesn’t fare better (and often dramatically better). Not to mention the takehome pay (post-pension, post-healthcare) are quite often 30-40% larger for working professionals. I think we still need a stronger social safety net, but Europe is not so dramatically better than the US as this thread makes it out to be.
      - Sharlin 7y ago
- pjc50 7y ago
  Someone else on HN made the same comment recently about the California power shutoffs. To me it seems that the US is becoming a Latin American country, driven by the same forces that apply south of the border. The reasons that created the endless drug war and the original "banana republics" ruled by the United Fruit Company.
- hestipod 7y ago
  This is me. Bad surgery and a failure of all the supposed support systems to help has ruined my life. Burned nearly everything I earned for my future. I've tried to get out of the US back to Europe where I lived before but the very losses I incurred here in health and financial security keep me from immigrating. The usual responses are victim blaming by nationalists, suggestions to pray from the religious, and "get a job" (ignoring all the health limitations I have explained as if I am making them up) from about everyone else as they deconstruct what THEY would do in their imagination. As if I would choose this life if I had better choices. I'll die in mid 40s because of this and if I was born in an actual first world nation with social systems I wouldn't have to. So add me too the statistics. You cant take away someone's health, career, life, and leave them in constant pain for years and years, deny them assistance, and then expect them to live like any young/healthy person fighting in the grind for the "right" to pay for life, and then act shocked when they are forced to opt out of life. But if you bring this up to people all they have is the idea of locking you up in a mental hospital and adding more 6-7 figure bills. I want to live. America isn't going to let me. Most days anymore I am resigned to it and glad it will be over...but some I am angry af. The only thing I will miss of this miserable place is my cat, the only good thing in my life, and I cannot even assure her future here as the people I live with aren't responsible and nobody adopts around here. Maybe I will win the lotto before end of year and can move us both abroad.
  - arethuza 7y ago
    Did you realise that risk when you emigrated to the United States?
    - hestipod 7y ago
      I was born in the USA...lived abroad for a time...had to return to the USA as my health deteriorated as a result of the American surgeries, which resulted in work aspect of European immigration failing, and then fiancee abandoned me right before our marriage so I had no legal way to stay. I never wanted to return to America. My life would never be amazing because of what was done to my health, but it was much better there. Here it's a dead end for sure.
Funes- 7y ago
>until the root cause is addressed: income inequality As far as I can tell, income inequality mainly stems from inequality of opportunity. I think a country is as free as its ability to give all its citizens the same opportunities.
- ianai 7y ago
  I agree that the US economic system doesn’t give enough opportunities. After being highlighted by the GR, the economy really doesn’t produce enough work for everyone who needs work. Precisely the sort of thing government is meant to address: problems no other actor has incentive or ability to address.
  - Funes- 7y ago
    >Precisely the sort of thing government is meant to address: problems no other actor has incentive or ability to address. I wholeheartedly agree. You've wonderfully articulated what an ideal government would be like.
  - oceanplexian 7y ago
    If that were true, we’d be seeing high levels of unemployment. Except that’s totally not true, we’re past full employment and yet businesses are struggling to hire people and the economy is booming.
chiefalchemist 7y ago
> ...until the root cause is addressed: income inequality. Agree. But I'd like to add: - MLK was assassinated when he shift from civil rights to addressing poverty and income inequality. - Bobby Kennedy was also making noise about the issue. - Currently, the mainstream media narrative is a relentless Red v Blue. There is no narrative for Haves v Have-nots. The System does work; quite well actually. And those who it works well for are not going to give up those benefits without a fight. But The People are too busy chasing symptoms and fighting each other. Change anytime soon feels unlikely.
- naravara 7y ago
  > Currently, the mainstream media narrative is a relentless Red v Blue. There is no narrative for Haves v Have-nots. Are we following the same Democratic primary where Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren both made these the centerpieces of their campaign and are 2 of the top 3 contenders? It’s a bit much to say there is NO such narrative. Even Trump ran on this narrative, he just sprinkled some racism with it.
  - chiefalchemist 7y ago
    Two candidates? That's a balance? I don't see that. And, to my point (thank you), they are both Blue. So the narrative remains a Party v Party paradigm. How's that workin' out for us? You have a point, but two is not a trend.
    - naravara 7y ago
      >Two candidates? That's a balance? I don't see that. Two candidates who, combined, are polling at nearly 40% of the party vote. >And, to my point (thank you), they are both Blue. So the narrative remains a Party v Party paradigm. How's that workin' out for us? This is a tiresome cliche that ignores how politics structurally works. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law In multi-party democracies it doesn't end up being all that different in terms of any individual voter getting what they want, it's just that the tacking to the median voter happens after the election is done instead of through a primary process.
maxerickson 7y ago
So what makes a country "third world" in your analysis? The term arose out of the cold war, meaning countries that weren't aligned with either the United States (first world) or the USSR (second world). That can't be what you mean. Later, it started to mean countries with poorly developed economies. That isn't the case, even if lots of our infrastructure is well used (really, if you have lots of infrastructure, you want at least some of it to be near the end of the useful life...). I suppose a recent definition looks at places with stark disparities in wealth/income. The US has that, but low income people here are doing quite well compared to most of those places, with lots of support coming from the government. We are wealthy enough to do much more, but things like Medicaid are not worthless.
Dumblydorr 7y ago
Don't forget wealth inequality, which is worse in some ways as it is less talked about but the gap is even wider there.
- H8crilA 7y ago
  Income is the real deal. Point is people want to be able to afford normal things like housing, medical care and some good education for their children. I don't see this as problematic that Buffett sits on hundreds of billions. But the fact that 150k annual income qualifies for subsidized housing in SF - well that's ridiculous.
roenxi 7y ago
> until the root cause is addressed: income inequality. There isn't any evidence for that root cause though. If someone has a comfortable, secure life with food and shelter they aren't going to be unhappy no matter how much someone else has. Fixing "income inequality" completely misses the actual root cause. I don't know what the root cause is, but I have lived next to some people who were substantially wealthier than I was and I didn't feel anything negative. Some inequality is healthy and nobody knows how much is ideal.
- H8crilA 7y ago
  > someone has a comfortable, secure life with food and shelter That's the thing, they don't. If they did I'd agree with you that the problem isn't very bad. You just don't see it around you. If you don't believe me search the FRED database for rent inflation and median wages, for example. Human brain is desperate for explanations. Populism is getting a lot of votes at the moment - people will prefer something that at least attempts to explain their pain over something that denies that the pain exists. "Drain the swamp" by Donal Trump and "Tax the rich" by Democratic hopefuls like Elizabeth Warren.
  - roenxi 7y ago
    But you have identified a root cause that wouldn't cause the problems you are observing. If I changed things (eg, for sake of argument, a highly effective welfare program combined with non-transfer-payment spending cuts and a tax cut to the wealthy) inequality could increase and the problem could go away at the same time. So the root cause is somewhere in the direction of 'people can't comfortable, secure and resourced'. That isn't related to inequality - people can be safe, comfortable, resourced and unequal. Root cause has a specific meaning; I'm basically saying I've done root cause analysis professionally and you havn't actually picked a root cause. You've picked something closer to a guess at a solution.
    - H8crilA 7y ago
      Inequality is the problem because everything happens in a single market. Rich people push the real estate market high and suddenly no affordable housing exists. I actually think that the FED is largely responsible for this setup. Unintended consequences of QE and cheap money - everything is now expensive. Same as the seeds for 2008 were laid out in the post-dotcom ultralow interest rates.
WrongThinkerNo5 7y ago
It is unfortunate that you think income inequality is the root cause, which would be rather humorous on a forum like this where the average person is wildly representative of that very income inequality and even fuels it with manic zeal. I keep saying it. If income inequality is the root cause, then everyone that believes that is more than free to voluntarily either give more of their money to the governments at any level, or even just simply give money to the people who they see as gaining unequal income. You and all similarly liberal minded types are all free to do essentially all of the things you support, advocate for, and believe in. No one is stopping you. But in reality the truth is that it has nothing to do with any of the things the liberal minded types say or are trained to repeat; because the common denominator is ALWAYS control, taking it from those who earned it, having it, and most importantly wielding it with impunity. If one untangles the intentional Gordian Knott created by designing groups in most and an ever increasing number of people's minds, it becomes quite apparent that the rhetoric never matches reality, that basic if-then statements reveal that it's basically all lies. * If it's income inequality, then why did Obama reward the housing fraud perpetrators and not even try a single one of the, then instead then shoveled trillions of dollars into the pockets of the ruling global aristocracy? * If it's income inequality, then why do so many people support the influx of low wage and low skilled workers from Latin America to undermine the working and middle class? * If it's income inequality, then why is it permitted that ~$120 BILLION dollars are drained out of American communities (of ALL ethnicities) every single year in remittances, which is a real loss of money and wealth that will no longer circulate in that community, which translates to several times that amount in GDP and wealth drain damage to working class people in particular? * If it's income inequality, then why are foreign nationals imported under H1B visas to undermine middle class education and job opportunities? * If it's income inequality, then why are skilled technical educational tracks that pay well not supported over the vast number of "liberal arts" "education" tracks that leave people unskilled, uneducated, and student loan debt slaves? * If it's income inequality, then why are working and middle class people robbed of the product of their work and labor to ship money overseas to pay for things and make the corrupt leadership of corrupt countries richer while also forcing people to pay for immigrants that are on public assistance at the same time that they are working under the table/under-reported and not paying taxes? No. "Income inequality" is just a feel good (mostly latched onto by guilt riddled whites) hot button slogan by the ruling aristocracy to distract from what they are really doing with the right hand. One thing is for sure though, this all will have immense consequences for all of us, regardless of where you currently are or whether you think you are on the good and self-righteous side. The consequences of actions can only be held back so long before they overcome the resistance and come crashing in with many times more force than if they had been allowed to operate and function normally and organically like the laws of physics they are a function of. Populism is indeed here to stay, and it is and was predictable farther back than most here have been alive. It's just that no one wanted to not stick their heads up unicorn asses to gain access to the very source fo that sweet sweet unicorn poop, until we invariably snap out of the hallucinogenic delusion were were in and realize what we did to that cow that is now a rotten carcass. We are not quite yet over the threshold of "third world country", especially considering that there is no third world when there is no more first world country once we realize in retrospect when the USA crossed the threshold, but you are quite right, we are rapidly and in an accelerating manner speeding towards that invisible crux threshold from which on out the gravitational pull will make things even more inevitable. Every con eventually comes undone unless it can be handed off to a greater fool, it's the model silicon valley has operated on for decades now, and this USA con job is clearly not only coming apart at the seams, but even being torn apart by enemies, foreign and domestic, foolishly not dealt with and even welcomed into it's midsts. As Lincoln long ago said,: "At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." And suicide is on order.
tempodox 7y ago
We had thousands of years to address the root cause and income inequality is still very much here. There are just too many forces in favor of keeping and expanding it.
simonsarris 7y ago
> we may invest [...] too little in infrastructure, education ... It sounds like a nice-to-have-thing but how on earth does that actually follow? The US spends enormous sums on education, the 2nd most of any country on earth (behind Norway) and ~33% more than OECD average. How can you be sure the problem is that we are investing too little? Investment hardly seems like the issue, ROI seems a lot more pertinent. For infrastructure, even heavily unionized countries can build public works projects like subways at far less cost than the USA. So its hard to buy that we invest too little per se. We get very little for our investments, whatever they are, which makes people in-my-opinion rightly cautious about investing more until some honest root cause analysis of the poor ROI is performed and openly acknowledged.

pietrovismara 7y ago

Compared to most European countries, US doesn't really feel like a first world country anymore. As a lower class member, your life would be drastically worse in US than Europe. As a middle class member it would also be much easier to lose your position, just have some health issue and you'll see how fast it takes to burn your life savings.

_iyig 7y ago
>As a middle class member it would also be much easier to lose your position, just have some health issue and you'll see how fast it takes to burn your life savings. I am currently in that exact position. I have very bad RSI and can no longer write software full-time. On better days, I can drive and do errands. I've spend roughly $40k out of pocket on treatment so far, and my COBRA health insurance runs out in a year. I had looked into speech-to-text, but now I have bad TMJ syndrome and talking is difficult. I'm honestly very afraid for my future.
- skinnymuch 7y ago
  Damn I know someone in SV who never types on a keyboard. Everything is speech to text. However if you’re getting issues with your mouth too. I’m really sorry.
- yardie 7y ago
  I’m a developer with mild RSI. I moved from pure software dev to devops. There is still some coding but most of it is automated. Now I’m mostly point and click.
seibelj 7y ago
> At the end of 2016, the rate of unemployment among young people was 42.91% [in Spain] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_unemployment_in_Spain#Current_statistics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_unemployment_in_Spain#... Not everything is unicorns and roses in Europe. They have massive structural issues.
- point78 7y ago
  Those are ages 15 - 24 and the numbers are a little better now. Cost of living is so low where unemployment is highest that it's not the end of the world. Still free health care and education.
  - suaveybloke 7y ago
    Pedantic point I know - but it's only 'free' at the point of access, it still has to be paid for by the taxpayer.
    - marcosdumay 7y ago
      Well, it isn't paid by the unemployed, and it doesn't impose exorbitant costs to unlucky people.
      - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
        Or bankrupt anyone.
    - dijit 7y ago
      Heh, Ben Shapiro likes to make a point of "liberals" expecting his wife to work for free. Yes, in the majority of societies "free" healthcare is free at point of access and subsidised by taxes. Much like trash collection or road renovations. It's underlying infrastructure for a healthy society. FWIW the US actually pays more taxes towards healthcare than europe, but that's because your medical industry is price fixing and gauging.[0] [0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/16/americans-already-pay-gigantic-hidden-health-care-tax-economists-say/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/16/americans...
helpPeople 7y ago
I felt the opposite when I visited Europe. Everything is small in Europe, people seem to have bare minimums. I suppose it's all about perception. Edit- it seems like it depends on which quality metrics you use. I used "Stuff", other users choose life expectancy, and vacation time.
- ilikehurdles 7y ago
  The amount of vacation time one receives and the amount of money one spends on health care and education isn’t something that can be chalked up to perception.
- tjr225 7y ago
  And yet most European countries have a greater life expectancy than the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe... If you consider "life" as a bare minimum, we are worse off.
- Sharlin 7y ago
  Indeed. My perception is that well-off Americans have ridiculously excessive unsustainable lifestyles, with superfluously large cars, houses, whatever. And at the same time your poor have much less than those bare minimums that you mention.
  - weberc2 7y ago
    It’s not just the very wealthy. The middle class in America also enjoy a much nicer standard of living than in Europe. Have a gander at the cost of living indices and there are very few categories where the US doesn’t fare better (and often dramatically better). Not to mention the takehome pay (post-pension, post-healthcare) are quite often 30-40% larger for working professionals. I think we still need a stronger social safety net, but Europe is not so dramatically better than the US as this thread makes it out to be.
    - Sharlin 7y ago
pjc50 7y ago
Someone else on HN made the same comment recently about the California power shutoffs. To me it seems that the US is becoming a Latin American country, driven by the same forces that apply south of the border. The reasons that created the endless drug war and the original "banana republics" ruled by the United Fruit Company.
hestipod 7y ago
This is me. Bad surgery and a failure of all the supposed support systems to help has ruined my life. Burned nearly everything I earned for my future. I've tried to get out of the US back to Europe where I lived before but the very losses I incurred here in health and financial security keep me from immigrating. The usual responses are victim blaming by nationalists, suggestions to pray from the religious, and "get a job" (ignoring all the health limitations I have explained as if I am making them up) from about everyone else as they deconstruct what THEY would do in their imagination. As if I would choose this life if I had better choices. I'll die in mid 40s because of this and if I was born in an actual first world nation with social systems I wouldn't have to. So add me too the statistics. You cant take away someone's health, career, life, and leave them in constant pain for years and years, deny them assistance, and then expect them to live like any young/healthy person fighting in the grind for the "right" to pay for life, and then act shocked when they are forced to opt out of life. But if you bring this up to people all they have is the idea of locking you up in a mental hospital and adding more 6-7 figure bills. I want to live. America isn't going to let me. Most days anymore I am resigned to it and glad it will be over...but some I am angry af. The only thing I will miss of this miserable place is my cat, the only good thing in my life, and I cannot even assure her future here as the people I live with aren't responsible and nobody adopts around here. Maybe I will win the lotto before end of year and can move us both abroad.
- arethuza 7y ago
  Did you realise that risk when you emigrated to the United States?
  - hestipod 7y ago
    I was born in the USA...lived abroad for a time...had to return to the USA as my health deteriorated as a result of the American surgeries, which resulted in work aspect of European immigration failing, and then fiancee abandoned me right before our marriage so I had no legal way to stay. I never wanted to return to America. My life would never be amazing because of what was done to my health, but it was much better there. Here it's a dead end for sure.

Funes- 7y ago

>until the root cause is addressed: income inequality As far as I can tell, income inequality mainly stems from inequality of opportunity. I think a country is as free as its ability to give all its citizens the same opportunities.

ianai 7y ago
I agree that the US economic system doesn’t give enough opportunities. After being highlighted by the GR, the economy really doesn’t produce enough work for everyone who needs work. Precisely the sort of thing government is meant to address: problems no other actor has incentive or ability to address.
- Funes- 7y ago
  >Precisely the sort of thing government is meant to address: problems no other actor has incentive or ability to address. I wholeheartedly agree. You've wonderfully articulated what an ideal government would be like.
- oceanplexian 7y ago
  If that were true, we’d be seeing high levels of unemployment. Except that’s totally not true, we’re past full employment and yet businesses are struggling to hire people and the economy is booming.

chiefalchemist 7y ago

> ...until the root cause is addressed: income inequality. Agree. But I'd like to add: - MLK was assassinated when he shift from civil rights to addressing poverty and income inequality. - Bobby Kennedy was also making noise about the issue. - Currently, the mainstream media narrative is a relentless Red v Blue. There is no narrative for Haves v Have-nots. The System does work; quite well actually. And those who it works well for are not going to give up those benefits without a fight. But The People are too busy chasing symptoms and fighting each other. Change anytime soon feels unlikely.

naravara 7y ago
> Currently, the mainstream media narrative is a relentless Red v Blue. There is no narrative for Haves v Have-nots. Are we following the same Democratic primary where Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren both made these the centerpieces of their campaign and are 2 of the top 3 contenders? It’s a bit much to say there is NO such narrative. Even Trump ran on this narrative, he just sprinkled some racism with it.
- chiefalchemist 7y ago
  Two candidates? That's a balance? I don't see that. And, to my point (thank you), they are both Blue. So the narrative remains a Party v Party paradigm. How's that workin' out for us? You have a point, but two is not a trend.
  - naravara 7y ago
    >Two candidates? That's a balance? I don't see that. Two candidates who, combined, are polling at nearly 40% of the party vote. >And, to my point (thank you), they are both Blue. So the narrative remains a Party v Party paradigm. How's that workin' out for us? This is a tiresome cliche that ignores how politics structurally works. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law In multi-party democracies it doesn't end up being all that different in terms of any individual voter getting what they want, it's just that the tacking to the median voter happens after the election is done instead of through a primary process.

maxerickson 7y ago

So what makes a country "third world" in your analysis? The term arose out of the cold war, meaning countries that weren't aligned with either the United States (first world) or the USSR (second world). That can't be what you mean. Later, it started to mean countries with poorly developed economies. That isn't the case, even if lots of our infrastructure is well used (really, if you have lots of infrastructure, you want at least some of it to be near the end of the useful life...). I suppose a recent definition looks at places with stark disparities in wealth/income. The US has that, but low income people here are doing quite well compared to most of those places, with lots of support coming from the government. We are wealthy enough to do much more, but things like Medicaid are not worthless.

Dumblydorr 7y ago

Don't forget wealth inequality, which is worse in some ways as it is less talked about but the gap is even wider there.

H8crilA 7y ago
Income is the real deal. Point is people want to be able to afford normal things like housing, medical care and some good education for their children. I don't see this as problematic that Buffett sits on hundreds of billions. But the fact that 150k annual income qualifies for subsidized housing in SF - well that's ridiculous.

roenxi 7y ago

> until the root cause is addressed: income inequality. There isn't any evidence for that root cause though. If someone has a comfortable, secure life with food and shelter they aren't going to be unhappy no matter how much someone else has. Fixing "income inequality" completely misses the actual root cause. I don't know what the root cause is, but I have lived next to some people who were substantially wealthier than I was and I didn't feel anything negative. Some inequality is healthy and nobody knows how much is ideal.

H8crilA 7y ago
> someone has a comfortable, secure life with food and shelter That's the thing, they don't. If they did I'd agree with you that the problem isn't very bad. You just don't see it around you. If you don't believe me search the FRED database for rent inflation and median wages, for example. Human brain is desperate for explanations. Populism is getting a lot of votes at the moment - people will prefer something that at least attempts to explain their pain over something that denies that the pain exists. "Drain the swamp" by Donal Trump and "Tax the rich" by Democratic hopefuls like Elizabeth Warren.
- roenxi 7y ago
  But you have identified a root cause that wouldn't cause the problems you are observing. If I changed things (eg, for sake of argument, a highly effective welfare program combined with non-transfer-payment spending cuts and a tax cut to the wealthy) inequality could increase and the problem could go away at the same time. So the root cause is somewhere in the direction of 'people can't comfortable, secure and resourced'. That isn't related to inequality - people can be safe, comfortable, resourced and unequal. Root cause has a specific meaning; I'm basically saying I've done root cause analysis professionally and you havn't actually picked a root cause. You've picked something closer to a guess at a solution.
  - H8crilA 7y ago
    Inequality is the problem because everything happens in a single market. Rich people push the real estate market high and suddenly no affordable housing exists. I actually think that the FED is largely responsible for this setup. Unintended consequences of QE and cheap money - everything is now expensive. Same as the seeds for 2008 were laid out in the post-dotcom ultralow interest rates.

WrongThinkerNo5 7y ago

It is unfortunate that you think income inequality is the root cause, which would be rather humorous on a forum like this where the average person is wildly representative of that very income inequality and even fuels it with manic zeal. I keep saying it. If income inequality is the root cause, then everyone that believes that is more than free to voluntarily either give more of their money to the governments at any level, or even just simply give money to the people who they see as gaining unequal income. You and all similarly liberal minded types are all free to do essentially all of the things you support, advocate for, and believe in. No one is stopping you. But in reality the truth is that it has nothing to do with any of the things the liberal minded types say or are trained to repeat; because the common denominator is ALWAYS control, taking it from those who earned it, having it, and most importantly wielding it with impunity. If one untangles the intentional Gordian Knott created by designing groups in most and an ever increasing number of people's minds, it becomes quite apparent that the rhetoric never matches reality, that basic if-then statements reveal that it's basically all lies. * If it's income inequality, then why did Obama reward the housing fraud perpetrators and not even try a single one of the, then instead then shoveled trillions of dollars into the pockets of the ruling global aristocracy? * If it's income inequality, then why do so many people support the influx of low wage and low skilled workers from Latin America to undermine the working and middle class? * If it's income inequality, then why is it permitted that ~$120 BILLION dollars are drained out of American communities (of ALL ethnicities) every single year in remittances, which is a real loss of money and wealth that will no longer circulate in that community, which translates to several times that amount in GDP and wealth drain damage to working class people in particular? * If it's income inequality, then why are foreign nationals imported under H1B visas to undermine middle class education and job opportunities? * If it's income inequality, then why are skilled technical educational tracks that pay well not supported over the vast number of "liberal arts" "education" tracks that leave people unskilled, uneducated, and student loan debt slaves? * If it's income inequality, then why are working and middle class people robbed of the product of their work and labor to ship money overseas to pay for things and make the corrupt leadership of corrupt countries richer while also forcing people to pay for immigrants that are on public assistance at the same time that they are working under the table/under-reported and not paying taxes? No. "Income inequality" is just a feel good (mostly latched onto by guilt riddled whites) hot button slogan by the ruling aristocracy to distract from what they are really doing with the right hand. One thing is for sure though, this all will have immense consequences for all of us, regardless of where you currently are or whether you think you are on the good and self-righteous side. The consequences of actions can only be held back so long before they overcome the resistance and come crashing in with many times more force than if they had been allowed to operate and function normally and organically like the laws of physics they are a function of. Populism is indeed here to stay, and it is and was predictable farther back than most here have been alive. It's just that no one wanted to not stick their heads up unicorn asses to gain access to the very source fo that sweet sweet unicorn poop, until we invariably snap out of the hallucinogenic delusion were were in and realize what we did to that cow that is now a rotten carcass. We are not quite yet over the threshold of "third world country", especially considering that there is no third world when there is no more first world country once we realize in retrospect when the USA crossed the threshold, but you are quite right, we are rapidly and in an accelerating manner speeding towards that invisible crux threshold from which on out the gravitational pull will make things even more inevitable. Every con eventually comes undone unless it can be handed off to a greater fool, it's the model silicon valley has operated on for decades now, and this USA con job is clearly not only coming apart at the seams, but even being torn apart by enemies, foreign and domestic, foolishly not dealt with and even welcomed into it's midsts. As Lincoln long ago said,: "At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." And suicide is on order.

tempodox 7y ago

We had thousands of years to address the root cause and income inequality is still very much here. There are just too many forces in favor of keeping and expanding it.

simonsarris 7y ago

> we may invest [...] too little in infrastructure, education ... It sounds like a nice-to-have-thing but how on earth does that actually follow? The US spends enormous sums on education, the 2nd most of any country on earth (behind Norway) and ~33% more than OECD average. How can you be sure the problem is that we are investing too little? Investment hardly seems like the issue, ROI seems a lot more pertinent. For infrastructure, even heavily unionized countries can build public works projects like subways at far less cost than the USA. So its hard to buy that we invest too little per se. We get very little for our investments, whatever they are, which makes people in-my-opinion rightly cautious about investing more until some honest root cause analysis of the poor ROI is performed and openly acknowledged.