6 ms·
Ask HN: iPhone released: discouraged as I am?
My first response: wow, this is an amazing device -- geo-location services are finally here! -- can't wait to pick one up.
But now I'm just depressed.
I'm depressed because people I know who have been working on great products are going to have an impossible time competing with Cupertino - every ajax desktop, data backup/sync, ???.
I'm depressed because apple apparently hates open-anything. Jobs smirks "oh hey we're going to let you push icon updates to the phone" -- WTF? Oh thank you great benevolent one. Then they proudly announce they had approved 4,000 developers. Nevermind the 21,000 we arbitrarily dicked over.
For developers it seems like the only upside is that someone is finally kicking mobile carriers in the teeth -- long since overdue.
In five years will we be missing Microsoft? :-/
- gojomo 18y agoYou could also root for Google Android.
- martey 18y agoIt's hard to "root" for them when there are no phones out that currently run on the platform, and many of the details still seem to be up in the air. My worry is that Apple will dominate the smartphone market (like the MP3 player market), which will cause everyone else to try and play catch up. It already seems to be happening - other companies seem to be concentrating on touchscreen phones they call "iPhone killers." When was the last time someone made an innovative MP3 player that gained a significant share of the market?
- dmix 18y agoI am comfortable having a company like Apple lead the MP3 and smart phone markets. They are setting a quality standard that balances function and design in ways that other companies can learn from. I hate to make the obvious comparison but its better then having something like Vista; an OS that dominates the market and the competitors succeeding by trying to be better, by not being like Vista. Apple deserves the top spot if all the competitors can do is make a touchscreen, instead of improving the UI as a whole and focusing on the user experience.
- jsjenkins168 18y agoWith the iPhone though we are potentially talking about the platform of the future. Do you want a single monopoly controlling this? That type of situation has historically been bad for innovation. As an analogy, how would things be if every internet web app created had to operate at the mercy of another company? Startup A has a great idea and wants to release an innovative new webapp. But they need to pay and have permission to do so, must operate in a tightly defined sandbox, and must share profits that they make. And the webapp could be kicked off the internet at anytime for breaking these rules. Does that make you comfortable?
- dmix 18y agoDepends if I'm taking the perspective of a start-up founder or a developer. As a founder I would understand the business strategy taken by Apple who naturally aims to keep a maintainable standard in it's softwares components. Keeping technical standards is pretty common for any company acting as a platform. In this scenario the end goal seems to be ensuring a level of performance. A company who decides to create an innovative app should of considered whether or not it can meet those standards. Otherwise their time creating something innovative should of been applied to a better market or when the platform in place can handle the innovation. By the way, the smart phone market is far from monopolistic so I'm not really worried.
- newt0311 18y agoI personally have no problem (okay, some problem) with apple cornering the hardware market for smart phones. My bigger concern is if they corner the software market as well. The software from apple is more suited to the non-technical user (as most of their users are non-technical) and I would like to have my own software on the iPhone. That is why we have competition in the first place. To serve the market in the most efficient way possible. If a single company controlled the entire software space (not just OS), would we have software like emacs which is completely useless for anybody outside a technical field but a godsend to hackers? Likewise, eventually apple will corner the hardware market in some platform and sell hardware that I do not like at which I will just have a problem with all parts of their products. Better not to let them monopolize the marketplace in the first place.
- agotterer 18y agoIs there a release date for android yet?
- nickb 18y agoGoogle delayed their handset. No word about other carriers. Problem is that many carriers are backtracking on their support for Android. Google hoped that the newly opened spectrum would be a fertile ground for Android and now it looks like Verizon will fight Google over that agreement with FCC. It will be a mess in any case. If I were betting money on mobile market, I'd bet on Apple.
- mechanical_fish 18y agoNow, let's not quibble over minor missing features like "physical existence". Surely they can patch that after the initial release. Instead, we should think about all the great things we can do with the imaginary Android phones that are available today. My older model is relatively limited, but I'm told that the new Android 3e^i, shipping in July, will cure cancer!
- icky 18y ago> but I'm told that the new Android 3e^i, shipping in July, will cure cancer! Take that, iPhone! http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=213895 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=213895
- BrandonM 18y agoYou could always go with Nokia's S60 devices. I've been extremely happy with my N82 so far, and there's also the N95 or the E90. Seriously, give them a look. You can install whatever you want without ridiculous workarounds, and they are all more capable devices than the iPhone.
- oldgregg 18y agoI agree that technically there are some good devices out there-- but in 18 months when Apple has the market completely wrapped up what's the point?
- andr 18y agoLast time I checked Nokia N95's were outselling the iPhone considerably, even as there is hardly any advertising in the US (1), none of the carriers sell it and the price is significantly higher. And that's just one model. (*) A non-geek friend told me she thought Nokia was bankrupt, because she hadn't heard anything about them for a while.
- BrandonM 18y agoHonestly? What echo chamber do you live in? I don't know anyone who owns or is even considering buying an iPhone.
- martey 18y agoI only know one person who owns a Nokia smartphone (and at least eight who have iPhones). He bought it last summer (when the cheapest iPhone was $499) for $200. Since he wanted cheap email on the go, the iPhone was too expensive for him. I have read a lot of articles about the fact that the iPhone now includes GPS is a game-changer, but I think that the price cut to $199 is more important.
- andr 18y agoNokia's S60 is a good alternative. A very mature, yet completely open OS. Touchscreen phones coming, too. It would take years for Apple to catch up with Nokia's attention to detail. Too bad they are practically non-existent in the US...
- bkbleikamp 18y agoBuy Apple stock :)
- edw519 18y ago"But now I'm just depressed." Why? Because the landscape has changed? People affected by this will just have to adapt and find their place in the new landscape. That's all. The pie is so big there's room for everybody. And if you still don't think so, there are plenty of other pies no one has noticed yet. You just gotta find them. Nothing to be "depressed" about. Happens all the time. OTOH, this is an excellent example of the advantages of being small and nimble - you can adapt quickly while the big boys are stuck struggling.
- oldgregg 18y agoI mostly agree. You're absolutely right about there being tons of other opportunities out there -- my start-up won't be affected at all -- and I have no doubt people like netvibes or dropbox will adapt. Not to mention I work on apple products 12 hours a day so personally I really benefit from their work. It's more an issue of building closed platforms. Everyone knows they are bad news but it seems like Apple gets a free pass. Adapting is always a good move, but you have to go meta at some point. A rough parallel would be people living in a locked down communist country... sure you adapt, but on some level it's proper to object to any system that long term consolidates power and subjugates minority interests.
- extantproject 18y agoApple and the iPhone are not roughly parallel to "living in a locked down communist country." You pay for the iPhone. You pay for the cell service. You pay for the shiny MacBook. Nobody makes you pay for these things; you don't have to use Apple products or services if you don't want to. In a communist country you will participate or be imprisoned or killed.
- unalone 18y agoThat's why I've never understood the Apple-hate. I mean, yes, I understand that it's great to have open things to fiddle with. At the same time, though, open-source applications are almost never the top-notch apps in their field. I think that Firefox, for instance, is dwarfed in terms of features by Opera and in terms of usability by Safari (my personal favorite). It's partly because Firefox is far more loosely-designed than either of the two browsers. Its philosophy is primarily "be open to change," whereas Opera's is "do everything" and Safari's is "stay out of the way." Apple doesn't lie to developers about their systems. They present a "my way or the highway" offer. And many excellent devs take them up on it, because they think that the OS X is worth the limitations developers face. Some users think that overall, that is a trade-off that is completely worth it. Others absolutely disagree. But Mac users don't hate "freetards" for their choices. The hate tends to be one-way. Ironic, because a lot of the condescension that Mac users get is from people who accuse them of being elitist. And... that's my one-sided, rambling rant.
- jsjenkins168 18y agoYou are definitely not alone. I'm pretty worried myself. A phone to realistically compete with the iPhone (especially at its new lower price point) is nowhere in site and the walled garden seems to grow with each Apple announcement. AppStore could be another Facebook platform situation where Apple kills startups at will simply by releasing their own version of a application. And Apple wont need to push icon updates, their apps can run as background services just fine. I'd like to be optimistic about other emerging mobile platforms, but everyone else is so dreadfully far behind and thats a bit concerning for a developer.
- nickb 18y agoGotta admit, I was surprised by their new apps. They are absolutely stunning. I heard rumors some time ago that Apple would offload their web apps (.Mac) to Google. Well, these new apps look better (and hopefully work as advertised) than Google's apps. For a company that only dabbles in web development, these new MobileMe apps change all that. They've raised the bar very high indeed.
- xlnt 18y agomaybe if you stopped wishing people would be "kicked in the teeth" you'd be a happier person. what you need is a better attitude. as you say, apple made something amazing. we should all rejoice.
- LPTS 18y agoNo my friend you have it all wrong. The badge updates are a fine solution for now. Everything is fine, my friend. I'm a bit concerned with your tone. It's almost as if you don't have faith that the Steve will do what is right. Has he not given us the iPhone, freed us from shitty cell phones, and gifted us, from some unknowable realm only he walks in, this beautiful 15 in. macbook pro I am typing on. After all the Steve did, you still want to leave the cult? In spite of everything, you just have to see the spear marks and stick your finger in. In your dark night, you even compare our savior (Steve) to microsoft. Luckily for you, the Steve's ability to make totally awesome gizmo's with a touch of LSD in each one is only parrelleled by his limitless compassion, and he is willing to forgive you, if only you would open your heart up to his forgiveness. Why don't you sit down and talk for a bit, doubting thomas? You are free to leave, just sit down and talk for a minute first, my friend. We're not going to stop you from leaving. Just sit down and chat first.
- immad 18y agoWow, I hope that last paragraph is some level of sarcasm that is beyond me or an extract from something, because it sounds ridiculous.
- allenbrunson 18y agoit's hardly the case that the other 21k developers got "dicked over!" apple decided they were only going to let a few in during the beta period. i bet the situation will be rectified at some point after the app store launches. the only thing those 4k developers got that the rest of us didn't is a key to install apps onto real iphone hardware. everybody else can still develop for the iphone simulator, which is very good. and if you really really need to see your app on a real iphone, you can go the jailbreak route.
- jws 18y agoI think the notification system will work out. Apparently you can use it to play a sound, "badge" an icon, or display a custom message. That sounds limited, but I think it completely encompasses the vocabulary of the user interface. Think of how Apple's programs work, and the only think I think of immediately missing is an action button or two on the "display a custom message", perhaps that will be there, maybe not, I can still attract the user to interact with my program and that makes me happy. As one of the 21,000 "dicked over" developers, I am still hopeful that they will open the floodgate enough days before July 11th to let me deploy on Day 1 and stake my ground against any potential competitor before they are the incumbent. The nature of my application makes the emulator mostly useless, but I have written a suite of algorithms and when I learn the performance characteristics of the iPhone hardware I will be able to choose and tune rapidly to deliver the best user experience. It has been a lot of extra work that I could better spent if I could have chosen and tuned along the way, but I also understand their desire to limit load from the beta program. I suppose what I would have done differently is make a track for people whose applications need to run natively and made room for them... but that would probably be abused. I don't see that mobile carriers got kicked in the teeth here. AT&T appears to be loaning you $200 for a stream of 24 monthly $10 payments. That works out to about a 15% return on their money. Then read the articles about AT&T no longer paying a monthly share to Apple and justifying it "because they are using that to subsidize the phones". I call bullshit. The $10/mo more than covers the $200 subsidy.
- cstejerean 18y agothe 10 dollars a month covers the difference between 3G and edge.
- jws 18y agoWhat makes anyone think 3G costs more to operate than edge? As I understand it 3G is more bandwidth efficient than edge which makes it able to serve more bits and handle more calls with fewer towers. Presumably consumption will rise a bit with faster page loads, but I don't think they'll be installing 50% more towers to justify the 50% price hike on data. Can I leave my iPhone 3G in edge mode (we saw the slider) and not pay the extra $10? I doubt it. Calling the extra $10 a 3G upgrade is one more bit of mirror in the smoke.
- dhotson 18y agoI actually think this is going to be a fantastic opportunity for startups.. even though Apple has built some pretty high walls for developers I'm from Australia and mobile internet is currently just way too expensive and so nobody uses it. If the iPhone (and competitors) can drive demand and push prices down, it could really open up some opportunities for developers working on applications for mobiles.
- bprater 18y agoWe needed a leader in cell phones. Until now, it was such a completely disjointed landscape that developing an app for phones was a walk in a field of mines. Companies were busy grabbing for land, but weren't working hard to create a great device. Maybe this is that start of focusing how to create awesome mobile applications for the masses. I think we are witnessing a pivotable moment in history.
- deleted 18y ago[deleted]
- paulv 18y agoThe only problems I have with the iPhone is that Apple decides what software is available and that makes it extremely difficult to write free software for it. There's _no_ reason in 2008 that people should be excited about (effectively) a computer that is actively free software unfriendly. The iPhone seems defective by design. The thing that makes me sad is that no one -- _particularly_ the people calling themselves hackers -- seems to care...
- axod 18y agoI would care if the existing software on the iPhone was really lacking. I actually wrote a new firmware for the Archos multimedia jukebox for that reason - the original software absolutely sucked. Archos then actually threatened to sue me etc etc. Good times, good times... Anyhow. Games consoles are pretty closed, I don't have a problems with the iPhone being closed to be honest. It has a very capabale web browser, which means you can run pretty much anything you like anyway.
- LogicHoleFlaw 18y agoGames consoles are pretty closed Don't remind me :( That's one of the biggest obstacles to independent innovation in gaming today. The PC is the current bastion of the small developer but PC gaming itself is in decline. We need more open access to the console space.
- pkaler 18y agoHaving worked on the XBox 360, Sony PS3, Sony PSP this is a HUGE improvement. The walled garden is not as huge an impediment as you believe it to be. Figure out if it is fiscally prudent for your organization to work on the iPhone platform. If not, move on. There are a ton of ideas that need to be worked on on a wide range of platforms.
- Tichy 18y agoI will prefer open source phones to the iPhone, of that I am sure. Except I don't like Android much (from a developer's point of view), and Linux on the phone seems to be still far away. For the time being it's like whatever, ALL phones suck, the iPhone just sucks a little less (hopefully).
- LKM 18y agoMaybe we should wait to hear whether they remaining devs will be approved at a later date. I've seen people approved with absolutely no track record whatsoever, so the requirements can't be too stringent.
- deleted 18y ago[deleted]
- KirinDave 18y agoHere's the thing. I think most of us here are rational enough to not degrade into raw fanboy-ism (is that asking too much?). If Apple didn't keep knocking the ball out of the park while simultaneously facing a competition that seems utterly incapable of making an adequate response, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Sometimes I wonder if Apple's real brilliance is in carefully choosing which segments of a market to attack... perhaps they have an incompetence detector? It's not like open source projects like OpenMoko haven't had a chance to make an amazing phone. Indeed, I'm frustrated because before the iPhone announcement, the OpenMoko looked like a top-of-the-line sort of gadget, and then Apple leapfrogs all their efforts on the first try. But I want a great phone, so now I'm stuck with AT&T and buying an iPhone. If these independent "great products" want to compete, perhaps they need to start forming explicit alliances with other service providers to form an integrated solution that people want. It's very clear that at least the Apple-buying public wants that kind of integration.