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My god, it must be so unpleasant to be the kind of person who thinks about that for the hours necessary to write an essay like the one he wrote ten years ago, a
by barry-cotter 7y ago
My god, it must be so unpleasant to be the kind of person who thinks about that for the hours necessary to write an essay like the one he wrote ten years ago, and to continue stewing on it for ten years.
I’ve lived in China for more than seven years and I definitely have an empty seat beside me on the metro more often than Chinese people and children and tourists say 老外(foreigner) regularly enough. So what? Life is good. I’m never going to be Chineses, same as he’s never going to be Japanese. If that bugs him why not go home? No one’s making him stay in Japan.
Change the things you can, accept the ones you can’t and if you can’t deal with that get out.
- asp_hornet 7y ago> I’m never going to be Chineses, same as he’s never going to be Japanese. If that bugs him why not go home? No one’s making him stay in Japan. I’m so happy to read this comment. I lived in Japan for 4 years and had the same feeling. People are always upset they’re not seen as Japanese despite the fact they are indeed not Japanese. I could see an argument if you were a child of a western parent, born and raised in Japan with Japanese values constantly having to remind people that you are a Japanese national but these are just foreigners living in Japan with a chip on their shoulder because they weren’t born Japanese.
- new_realist 7y agoSeparate but equal? Or not even equal?
- josephg 7y agoI hear you, but I also notice how different the expectations and standards are around race in the west. If we transplant some of the things said above into America, I notice I have a very different reaction. Eg, “[Because he’s not white] he’s never going to be American. If that bugs him, why not go home? Nobody is making him stay in America.” “[Immigrants] are just foreigners living in America with a chip on their shoulder because they weren’t born American” (Edit to be really clear I’m not condoning or condemning. Just noticing.)
- rimliu 7y agoRace probably not the issue there, at least not tonthw degree some assume it is. I've seen the very same santiment "you will never be X" from the people which emigrated to the countries where the wast majority is of the same race.
- 55555 7y ago> Eg, “[Because he’s not white] he’s never going to be American. If that bugs him, why not go home? Nobody is making him stay in America.” No, because America is not a racially homogenous society. Japan mostly is. Japan's residents are 98% japanese and most of the other 2% are other asians.
- josephg 7y agoHm, I’m doing a gut check on that by swapping in another western country which is more racially homogeneous than the US to see how I feel about it: > “[Because he’s not white] he’s never going to be Norwegian. If that bugs him, why not go home? Nobody is making him stay in Norway.” My ears still flag that as racist.
- knzhou 7y agoAmerica actually is unique among countries. I could move to Japan, but I'll never be Japanese; I could also move to Denmark, but I'll never be a Dane. But I moved to America and now I am American. The vast majority of countries don't work this way, nor would it be better for all of them to. But it's great that at least one does.
- et-al 7y agoIf you happen to be in a visually homogenous society (i.e. rural America, or Japan), you're gonna be treated differently because you stand out. This common occurrence for American-born children of non-white immigrants in American. "Where are you from?" "Kansas City" "No, where are you really from?" This being said, America's had more immigrants come in than Japan, so by collective experience, America should be more open-minded about outsiders than Japan. Which is what we see in big cities like New York.
- Aeolun 7y agoThe same thing is true for anyone in the US though. They always describe themselves as being [insert grandparents’ nationality before coming to the US].
- mattigames 7y agoDownvoted; the author clearly doesn't have much problem with not be seen as Japanese, he has a problem with being seen as a human being one should not sit next to.
- akincisor 7y ago“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman
- barry-cotter 7y ago"But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan If you feel like going on a one man crusade to change the world is what you want to do with your life go for it. If you want admiration for it make sure you win.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y agoAnd some unreasonable men jump of bridges in an attempt to adapt gravity to themselves.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- theroo 7y agoI think when you experience prejudice regarding your race, it’s unfair to characterize that as “stewing”. Maybe you don’t find this article or his initial piece insightful; that’s fair enough. But I also think it’s fair of him to shine a light on unfair treatment in the place he lives, without people suggesting - without irony - that he “go home”.
- ddiq 7y agoIt's not "unfair treatment," it's perfectly normal for people to feel more comfortable around their own. They don't know if this guy knows train etiquette, if he has body odor - only around 10% of East Asians do, or maybe it's just that he's wider than the average Japanese person, as it appears so from his picture. He's a guest in their country, and it's impudent for him to think he has the right to be sat next to at the same rate as Japanese people. If he doesn't like it, he should leave.
- theroo 7y agoHe’s black. Did you read that part?
- ddiq 7y agoOf course, I commented on his picture and it would be pretty hard to notice his width and not his race. I don't see why this is pertinent, though, he's not Japanese and I was commenting on the fact that he's not Japanese, not on what race he was.
- vore 7y agoYou're presupposing a lot about the author's situation: maybe he's not in a situation where he can easily leave, or the things he likes about Japan outweigh occasionally being snubbed with an empty seat. Clearly, he feels like it's just slight background noise in his life, but there's nothing wrong with being little annoyed that he's still being prejudged by the society he's living in after trying to fit in as best he can.
- sendos 7y agoI agree that if the attitudes of people in Japan bother him so much, not clear why he’s staying Having said that, the phenomenon he describes is pure racism. Not easy to shrug off
- RHSeeger 7y agoOut of curiosity, would you be ok with someone telling a non-us citizen black man in the US "If you don't like people acting racist toward you, go back where you came from"? That is fairly widely considered inappropriate in the US (though not universally).
- NhanH 7y agoThe US is pretty much the other extreme from homogenous country/society. Regardless of one's answer to your question, you are gonna need to pick a different country name in it to have any kind of comparison to Japan
- ddiq 7y agoOut of curiosity, would you be ok with a non-citizen Japanese person lecturing you on why Americans are bad because they don't have the exact same outlook and attitude as Japanese people? Because that's what the author of this article is doing.
- RaiseProfits 7y agoIf that outlook is “is it ok to treat this person as a lower class of person”, then you should stand up for your values. Not all cultural relativism must end with blind acceptance.
- barry-cotter 7y agoI think tilting at windmills is a great way to spend precious hours or years of your life to a net negative effect on your life. It may redound to the benefit of other people later but you’ll pay the costs, not them. If that sounds like a good deal to you go for it. I am personally a big fan of going where I’m wanted and where I feel comfortable rather than trying to change other people.
- solidasparagus 7y agoIt's rude to say that to someone, but as a foreigner if you can't come to terms with the face that you ARE an outsider, leaving's your only alternative (America's pretty diverse so eventually anyone can become a local, but in many places the visual difference will always set you apart). I've been the foreigner before and there's a big gap between not being treated like a local and being actively encouraged to leave.
- kochikame 7y agoBaye McNeil is famous for finding racism where there usually isn't any.
- ddiq 7y agoThere's always an explanation where the answer is racism, even if it isn't the correct explanation. Wider than the average Japanese person and crowding the seat(s) next to you? They must not sit next to him because he's black.
- theroo 7y agoYou’re really clinging to your “he’s too wide” rationale. Read the article. He’s subject to racism. It’s okay for him to comment on that, and the response over time should be that a society better upholds the idea that each human is equal. But I’m sure you’re still convinced it’s something to do with the width of the seats. Only on HN. Honestly.
- xrd 7y agoNow you are famous to me for finding absent racism in Baye McNeil. Congrats!
- fennecfoxen 7y agoI bet I know what will really help "change the things you can". Instead of writing that article about racism for people to read about it and react, and prompt reflection on prejudice in all aspects of life -- you should just shut up and go home. Challenge nothing and no one. Do not stand up for human rights. Object vocally when others do.
- song 7y agoFirst, having lived in China in different cities and in Japan, the empty seat phenomenon is nowhere as pronounced in China as in Japan. In Japan, you sometimes end up seating next to an empty seat in a packed train, I've rarely seen that in Japan. Yes as foreigners, we are more likely to be seated next to an empty seat in China but once the train is packed, the seat doesn't stay empty. It's a very different feeling in Japan. I also rather disagree with the suggestion to get out. Getting out is not always easy and besides that, why should one systematically accept racism? It's ok to complain about it. Doesn't mean that he doesn't find some positive aspects about living in Japan but he has a right to complain about this kind of behavior
- wheels 7y agoWow. This is a truly horrifying attempt to normalize racism. "If you don't like it, just go home." He's been there for a decade. The author likely sees Japan as his home. The social mechanics of Japan are certainly quirky by western standards, but that doesn't mean that some things aren't universally unacceptable. You might as well say, "If you don't like persecution of gays, stay out of Nigeria." "If you think women should be able to drive, stay out of Saudi Arabia." (recently changed) As a traveler, and someone that's been to almost 50 countries, I tend to keep my head down and not make waves when I'm out of my the cultures where I feel at home. But that doesn't mean that I can't write about injustices. That's what you're literally saying the author is not entitled to do. After a decade in said country.
- ng12 7y ago> "If you don't like persecution of gays, stay out of Nigeria." "If you think women should be able to drive, stay out of Saudi Arabia." (recently changed) I mean... yes? I cannot recommend living in either country as a member of one of those groups. Nor can I really understand the egocentric view that if you voluntarily choose to move to a new country that country's culture should change as to be comfortable for you.
- theroo 7y agoWe should let people that brave it, comment on it without being told they shouldn’t be there by people who aren’t there. Commenting on it is critical. Commentary can spark a change in ideas and attitudes for the better. HN crowd always go to the pragmatic. But what about big ideas? Big change? Can we support people that are pursuing that without zooming immediately into technicalities? Probably not. But I hope.
- ng12 7y agoIt is definitely acceptable to comment on his experience -- and I think it was a fascinating read -- but I'm mostly reacting to the idea that accepting it as a facet of Japanese society is normalizing racism.
- 7y ago
- yibg 7y agoI see this type of attitude applied to non western countries a lot and I never understood it. It also bothers me a great deal. I’m ethnically Chinese but have lived in either the US or Canada for most of my life. I’ve been the beneficiary to the changing attitude towards minorities here and have seen how things have changed for the better in my time here. Imagine if the pervasive attitude has been “You are being discriminated against? So what, life is good here. You are never going to be Canadian / American. If you don’t like it go back to where you came from.”
- barry-cotter 7y agoI’m not a Western Imperialist. I don’t particularly like the way China is run but I’m not under the illusion anyone cares. If you as an American feel like imposing your culture in China by all means go for it but please wait until after I leave. The opinions of foreigners about a countries internal affairs are relevant insofar as they are backed up by heavy weaponry, except as literary exercises.
- yibg 7y agoNo one is talking about imposing anything and certainly not about externally. The article is someone living in japan discussing cultural / racial issues in japan. I’m of the opinion that these things should be raised and discussed instead of just “if you don’t like it go back to where you came from”.
- barry-cotter 7y agoWell they are being discussed by Americans. He reached his intended audience.
- mattigames 7y agoDownvoted; the author clearly doesn't have much problem with not be seen as Japanese, he has a problem with being seen as a human being one should not sit next to.