4 ms·

Tangent, out-of-the-box and more 'LTS' solution: What if the entire machinery known as "State" (govs, senates & assemblies, justice, agencies) realized that th

by K0SM0S 7y ago

Tangent, out-of-the-box and more 'LTS' solution: What if the entire machinery known as "State" (govs, senates & assemblies, justice, agencies) realized that the logical long-term choice is to develop and maintain open-source software for pretty much anything they do, so as to effectively 1. enrich the 'national' or 'regional' wealth of all citizens and 2. contribute to technology in a historical way? Nuance: I'd qualify the whole endeavor a 'mildly massive untertaking', it's not a switch but a decade-long effort. Bigger than the longest of usual "LTS". But the benefits, in terms of saved money (lower taxes?), quality of service (if any citizen can participate, whether as programmer or writer or evangelist or trainer or whatever), security (I'd wager there'd be enough eyeballs to proof this software), and probably 50 other externalities, like massive general training / jobs, better technical expertise of many state workers at every level, possible service to citizens (switching them off the customer status in some domains critical to democracy, especially when it's free thus they are the product), yadi yada. The State could be an excellent digital host for itself, and a great steward for its population, if it addressed the technological matter in a professional way, with the right heart and the right mind. If executed superbly, it could qualify as some "8th wonder", the first digital and truly collective one, to ever be built. A true hallmark of the 21st century. And we can all, all of us worldwide, participate to make a master; then proceed to fork based on our local systems —political and technical— and cultural preferences. I hope I do not have to explain why I'm a little jaded, a feeling of too much deja vu and not enough 'tomorrow', when I read such ethical yet misguided fights. /understanding rant EU, you have your heart in the right place, your ethics are fair and much needed in this world, but at our current pace your solutions seem ancient —so 20th century. Think 2030+ now and begin building long-term, towards a definitive solution. Move the needle, redefine things, fail/break the old stuff to make room for contemporary greatness. OSS for public software is a low hanging fruit, however giant, and you'll do the world a fantastic service worthy of your wealth and values. Source of ideas: I am a concerned French citizen, and being born some 10,000 km away gave me a wider-than-Western-EU perspective of modernity, for some 37 years and counting.

depressedpanda 7y ago
I am myself quite baffled as to why governments don't embrace open source to a higher degree and - more importantly - enforce open standards (no, OOXML does not count, for obvious reasons). > The State could be an excellent digital host for itself, and a great steward for its population, if it addressed the technological matter in a professional way, with the right heart and the right mind. Given my past experience, that's a very big if, unfortunately. :-(
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
  You need not be baffled. The software industry is good at lobbying.
  - squarefoot 7y ago
    A case that deserves to be taken as an example of lobbying: the German city of Munich, which in 2003 started moving all desktop workstations to Linux, and by the end of 2012 reported a huge success with savings amounting to 11 million Euros, but in 2017 they announced they would migrate back to Windows, probably because of this: https://www.novinite.com/articles/155950/Munich+Set+to+Become+Microsoft%27s+Second+Largest+Office+in+Europe https://www.novinite.com/articles/155950/Munich+Set+to+Becom...
- IAmEveryone 7y ago
  On the doing-actual-work level, governments aren't really different from private companies, so one shouldn't expect dramatically different outcomes. The idea that governments' actions should strive for some more idealistic goals isn't entirely wrong. But then again: why should we expect less from private citizens and corporations? They are just as much part of society, have rather more power to influence the software market, and tend to have more money to spent (I've recently seen a government office still using CRT). But mandating open standards: yeah, totally.
- K0SM0S 7y ago
  It's not entirely bad, not everywhere —some countries are quite advanced in that regard, notably in Europe. However I'm evoking a deeper system; i.e. creating the "software information system of states", automating the hell out of it, building some Amazon-like octopus of goodness at the service of everything public = property of all citizens. Relevant buzzwords: State as an Open-source Service (StaaOS) I share your concerns for gov efficiency; a common reasonable idea seems to make a "hybrid institution" e.g. create an independent agency run by citizens, with a governance model a la NGO / not-for-profit. An ideal management, imho, would involve various 'captains' of the tech industry (I'd say there's a pool of at least 10,000 people fitting that bill on earth today, i.e. ~1 per mil., and I'm possibly low-balling it by orders of magnitude). The structure should definitely be mission-driven (probably architected much like a business). Several countries enjoy great success (in quality, cost, etc.) with such types of agencies.
skybrian 7y ago
This could be done well or badly. I think the biggest challenge would be competing with industry at hiring good employees. Another big challenge would be writing software that works for everyone (as governments are expected to do) rather than for a small subset of users (as businesses can do, at least at first).
scarejunba 7y ago
There are things governments cannot do that private companies can: shut down and go away because you made product no one wants. Over time this applies a positive pressure on governments to accumulate junk - layoffs are unacceptable, costly, etc. It isn’t the ‘fault’ of government. It’s just that cleansing is necessary for quality And systems that do not allow for cleansing have junk perpetuate. Governments cannot discriminate, which is the fastest way to trial product - targeting your most fertile customers and adapting. Therefore, they will be locked into massive waterfall-style design. Governments cannot ignore edge-cases. It makes it really hard, though I’ve noticed that lots of new gov.uk stuff and things like Id.gov are pretty good.

by K0SM0S 7y ago

depressedpanda 7y ago

I am myself quite baffled as to why governments don't embrace open source to a higher degree and - more importantly - enforce open standards (no, OOXML does not count, for obvious reasons). > The State could be an excellent digital host for itself, and a great steward for its population, if it addressed the technological matter in a professional way, with the right heart and the right mind. Given my past experience, that's a very big if, unfortunately. :-(

TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
You need not be baffled. The software industry is good at lobbying.
- squarefoot 7y ago
  A case that deserves to be taken as an example of lobbying: the German city of Munich, which in 2003 started moving all desktop workstations to Linux, and by the end of 2012 reported a huge success with savings amounting to 11 million Euros, but in 2017 they announced they would migrate back to Windows, probably because of this: https://www.novinite.com/articles/155950/Munich+Set+to+Become+Microsoft%27s+Second+Largest+Office+in+Europe https://www.novinite.com/articles/155950/Munich+Set+to+Becom...
IAmEveryone 7y ago
On the doing-actual-work level, governments aren't really different from private companies, so one shouldn't expect dramatically different outcomes. The idea that governments' actions should strive for some more idealistic goals isn't entirely wrong. But then again: why should we expect less from private citizens and corporations? They are just as much part of society, have rather more power to influence the software market, and tend to have more money to spent (I've recently seen a government office still using CRT). But mandating open standards: yeah, totally.
K0SM0S 7y ago
It's not entirely bad, not everywhere —some countries are quite advanced in that regard, notably in Europe. However I'm evoking a deeper system; i.e. creating the "software information system of states", automating the hell out of it, building some Amazon-like octopus of goodness at the service of everything public = property of all citizens. Relevant buzzwords: State as an Open-source Service (StaaOS) I share your concerns for gov efficiency; a common reasonable idea seems to make a "hybrid institution" e.g. create an independent agency run by citizens, with a governance model a la NGO / not-for-profit. An ideal management, imho, would involve various 'captains' of the tech industry (I'd say there's a pool of at least 10,000 people fitting that bill on earth today, i.e. ~1 per mil., and I'm possibly low-balling it by orders of magnitude). The structure should definitely be mission-driven (probably architected much like a business). Several countries enjoy great success (in quality, cost, etc.) with such types of agencies.

skybrian 7y ago

This could be done well or badly. I think the biggest challenge would be competing with industry at hiring good employees. Another big challenge would be writing software that works for everyone (as governments are expected to do) rather than for a small subset of users (as businesses can do, at least at first).

scarejunba 7y ago

There are things governments cannot do that private companies can: shut down and go away because you made product no one wants. Over time this applies a positive pressure on governments to accumulate junk - layoffs are unacceptable, costly, etc. It isn’t the ‘fault’ of government. It’s just that cleansing is necessary for quality And systems that do not allow for cleansing have junk perpetuate. Governments cannot discriminate, which is the fastest way to trial product - targeting your most fertile customers and adapting. Therefore, they will be locked into massive waterfall-style design. Governments cannot ignore edge-cases. It makes it really hard, though I’ve noticed that lots of new gov.uk stuff and things like Id.gov are pretty good.