17 ms·

What I see a lot in this thread is people's either/or opinions. Love cars / hate bycicles or vice versa. No. It is a balancing act, where cars, bycicles and pu

by rapnie 7y ago

What I see a lot in this thread is people's either/or opinions. Love cars / hate bycicles or vice versa. No. It is a balancing act, where cars, bycicles and public transport co-exist, and infrastructure is developed strategically in smart ways and in a prolonged effort. When I was young in The Netherlands for the most part the cars still dominated the streets. Over time I've seen cities and road networks gradually being transformed to what I now consider a Walhalla for cyclists. Public transport plays a big role in that too, and the Dutch still love their cars. I highly recommend reading this article: "No helmets, no problem: how the Dutch created a casual biking culture" [0] which interviews the American Bruntlett family that wrote the book "Building the Cycling City: The Dutch Blueprint for Urban Vitality" [1] See also the great discussion on HN at the time [2]. [0] https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/8/28/17789510/bike-cycling-netherlands-dutch-infrastructure https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/8/28/17789510/bi... [1] https://islandpress.org/books/building-cycling-city https://islandpress.org/books/building-cycling-city [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17861803 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17861803

Svip 7y ago
It really helps that in neither Denmark nor the Netherlands, helmets are mandatory. Unlike in say Sweden, where casual biking is having a hard time taking off. But it kind of bothers me that Danes and Dutchmen seem to be rather disinterested in one another's achievements on this front. There is a lot of lessons from both sides, that never seems to be discussed in one another's media, to the point (anecdote alert!) where I've seen people in either country be surprised that there is a similar biking culture in the other country. And people still love their cars in either country, even though I believe it's even more expensive to own a car in the Netherlands (and I thought Denmark was pricey!).
- rapnie 7y ago
  I haven't been to Denmark so I can't compare, but I agree there is much to be learned by looking at how other countries fare. In the densely populated Netherlands we are facing very serious gridlock problems now with cars clogging the highways and railways at full capacity. We can't keep building new infrastructure (highways) at the pace we did before, because - besides being very expensive - we lack the space for it. New solutions may lie in promoting remote work, carpooling and shortening home/work commute distances. I also suspect that bicycle infra will be developed even further (e.g. with bike highways) as they take less space and are less disruptive to the landscape.
  - lazyjones 7y ago
    > We can't keep building new infrastructure (highways) at the pace we did before, because - besides being very expensive - we lack the space for it. New solutions may lie in promoting remote work, carpooling and shortening home/work commute distances. You can build highways and rails in 3 dimensions. The bicycle simply cannot replace cars and trains in any meaningful way, despite the rise in numbers of single, childless urbanites.
    - ocschwar 7y ago
      In the Netherlands? You can. But it then sinks into the polders.
- mcv 7y ago
  I think cycling is inherently more a local thing than cars. Nobody needs interstate or international bicycle paths, because nobody cycles that far. So it makes sense that the interest is more local, and maybe that's also why smaller countries like Denmark and Netherland are more successful at it. Bicycle infrastructure is primarily about towns and cities. So if you want this big push, you have to do it at the city level, but not just a bike path here or there, but redesign the entire city for bicycles. Have bike thoroughfares, make sure bikes are the best way to get around the center, and for any kind of traffic that stays within a town or borough. Cars are only for getting out of the city. Many Dutch towns are increasingly redesigned with that idea in mind, most thoroughly perhaps the town of Houten[0], where the only way to get anywhere by car is to take the ring road, whereas bikes get quick shortcuts through the center. That makes bicycles attractive and keeps the pollution from cars out of the center. Travel within the town will favour the bike because it's easier and quicker than a car, which reduces the amount of car traffic, and reduces congestion and pollution. That's the level at which you need to address this. Well, that and revoking any national helmet laws for bikes, because that's been shown to keep people in cars. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houten https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houten
  - gbrown 7y ago
    > Nobody needs interstate or international bicycle paths, because nobody cycles that far. IMHO, this is 120% just a chicken and egg problem. Sure, nobody bikes that far to work, but if you build it people can and will travel large distances to visit just to go on bike tours. In my state, we have an annual event which attracts thousands in which people bike hundreds of miles from one side to the other. Rural highways are closed down/protected for bikes, but just for that one week.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      You aren’t wrong from a recreational perspective. But from a practical one meant to alleviate traffic and pollution, long distance intercity biking is less viable in addressing those compared to public transit.
barney54 7y ago
I agree that it's a balancing act, but what are we balancing? What are we maximizing for? It's critical we ask the right questions. For example, why has bike commuting declined recently in the United States? https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/01/02/bike-work-fewer-americans-new-trails-share-programs/2319972002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/01/02/bike-w... It's not like cities like San Francisco and Seattle became bike hostile (if they have, I haven't heard it). Bike commuting is only used by 1 percent of people in large metro areas in the United States. https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/databook/travel-mode-shares-in-the-u-s/ https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/databook/travel-mode-sha... Public transportation use is also falling in the United States. https://www.govtech.com/fs/transportation/2018-Was-the-Year-of-the-Car-and-Transit-Ridership-Felt-It.html https://www.govtech.com/fs/transportation/2018-Was-the-Year-... I love bike commuting. My life is better when I ride my bike to work, but I can't always do it. It's critical that as we think about the future we think about how to improve personal mobility. That's the key. I'm skeptical that the future is automobiles with single occupants or bikes or scooters. People will gravitate toward toward personalized transportation that gets to where they want to be comfortably, quickly, and within their budgets.
- Tade0 7y ago
  What are we maximizing for? I guess it's a multi-criteria decision problem. On one hand we want people to get where they want to as quickly as possible, on the other we want the city to be "liveable" and safe. Only "livability" isn't measurable here. IIRC the Dutch maximised mostly for safety.
- naravara 7y ago
  I think declining transit ridership and bike commuting can both be partly attributed to heavily subsidized rideshare services. Once those things hit prices commensurate to their actual cost of operation you might see that trend reverse.
claudeganon 7y ago
It may seem tangential, but I think that biking culture can’t really take off in the US without universal, good quality healthcare. I’ve had a couple of friends suffer some serious and very expensive accidents and it has certainly made me hesitant to ride as much. When combined with the fact that US car culture has created circumstances in many states where you can kill bicyclists and more or less get away it, seems like a losing bet.
- rapnie 7y ago
  Yes, these may be very inhibiting factors. It's a bit of a chicken/egg problem too, because once bycicle culture grows, road safety also increases significantly: > Despite the relative safety compared to automobiles, the number of fatalities and hospitalizations from cycling is significantly greater in the United States compared to other western states such as Germany, Canada, and the Netherlands. In a 2014 analysis, incidence of cycling death took place at a mean rate of 4.7 deaths per 100 million kilometers cycled in the U.S., compared to 1.3 deaths per 100 million kilometers in Germany, 1.0 in the Netherlands, and 1.1 in Denmark. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_safety#Crashes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_safety#Crashes
brnt 7y ago
As a Dutchman who's lived in a few places abroad, the cycling 'problem' is quite simple: it needs to be the norm. No helmet, because neither do you require them for pedestrians. You can cycle in all weather, just as you would walking (a hard mental one, my non-Dutch partner can't get over the idea cycling is for sunshine). Public space design must start with safe (no sharp turns, looking at you France!) and separate cycling lanes. Perhaps the fact that urban cycling infra is a much cheaper/efficient use of public land could be more emphasized. In urban areas, cycling is faster, and electric biking is expanding your reach a few times over. There are people who bike a 30km commute without breaking a sweat (see bike highways). Sure, there will always be situations where it will be difficult, such as steep areas (electric bikes can do a lot here, as well as accepting a little sweating which is normal in NL) or heat that exceeds body temperatures which in turn makes expiration impossible (no easy solutions for this one). But that leaves most of the urban areas on this globe perfectly suitable for cycling, which would be in everybody's favor, and their own first and foremost.
- aidenn0 7y ago
  I live in a very mild clime, but still don't bike when it's rainy. What do you suggest gear-wise for bicycling in say 5-10C but wet? I have a 30 minute bicycle commute that I'd like to do more often. A typical waist-length jacket leaves most of my body wet, but a longer jacket is awkward to bike in. If it's over 10C, I can just wear shorts that don't absorb water, but under 10, it gets quite uncomfortable.
  - renjimen 7y ago
    Rain pants? Pretty standard here in Copenhagen. It helps if it's coldish, otherwise you either sweat more or cycle slower. A change of shoes and socks can also be appreciated if it's tipping it down.
  - adrianN 7y ago
    5-10C but wet is easy mode. Use a rain jacket, rain pants, and rain spats (optional). It's harder when it's warm and wet, as you can choose between getting wet from the rain, or sweating under your waterproof gear.
cyborgx7 7y ago
I disagree. There is no need for a "balancing act" between cars and public transport. More public transport and less cars is always an improvement.
- bluGill 7y ago
  Eventually that isn't practical though. You cannot take a pallet of anything on any sort of transit and never will, it will always be delivered on non-public systems. Your new couch has the same problem. Train tracks to your front door are easy to imagine, but the flexibility of roads (with cars and trucks on it) is a lot more cost effective.
  - cyborgx7 7y ago
    This is a silly thing to jump towards in the discussion, since it's not like we are anywhere close to the situation in which we have next to no private transport. In fact, we are almost at the other extreme. But if I was to indulge you, I would say that public transport doesn't mean rails. In the case of buses it also uses roads. And of course, if we were to abolish all motorized private person transport (again, no where even close to that) of course there would need to be a system to allow for the transport of items that are too big to be transported by individuals in public transport. I assumed that goes without saying.
    - bluGill 7y ago
      I didn't jump there. The parent statement is "More public transport and less cars is always an improvement" jumped there.
      - cyborgx7 7y ago
        Pretty sure that was you.
        CDSlice 7y ago
        > I disagree. There is no need for a "balancing act" between cars and public transport. More public transport and less cars is always an improvement. Sound familiar?
davidw 7y ago
Cycling was also a 'right tool for the job' where I lived in Italy. But the US is so far behind from that point of view that it's going to take a massive effort to stop subsidizing and requiring (via zoning) driving and facilitating other means of getting around. I think that most of the anti-car mentality comes from how difficult this fight has been.

by rapnie 7y ago

Svip 7y ago

It really helps that in neither Denmark nor the Netherlands, helmets are mandatory. Unlike in say Sweden, where casual biking is having a hard time taking off. But it kind of bothers me that Danes and Dutchmen seem to be rather disinterested in one another's achievements on this front. There is a lot of lessons from both sides, that never seems to be discussed in one another's media, to the point (anecdote alert!) where I've seen people in either country be surprised that there is a similar biking culture in the other country. And people still love their cars in either country, even though I believe it's even more expensive to own a car in the Netherlands (and I thought Denmark was pricey!).

rapnie 7y ago
I haven't been to Denmark so I can't compare, but I agree there is much to be learned by looking at how other countries fare. In the densely populated Netherlands we are facing very serious gridlock problems now with cars clogging the highways and railways at full capacity. We can't keep building new infrastructure (highways) at the pace we did before, because - besides being very expensive - we lack the space for it. New solutions may lie in promoting remote work, carpooling and shortening home/work commute distances. I also suspect that bicycle infra will be developed even further (e.g. with bike highways) as they take less space and are less disruptive to the landscape.
- lazyjones 7y ago
  > We can't keep building new infrastructure (highways) at the pace we did before, because - besides being very expensive - we lack the space for it. New solutions may lie in promoting remote work, carpooling and shortening home/work commute distances. You can build highways and rails in 3 dimensions. The bicycle simply cannot replace cars and trains in any meaningful way, despite the rise in numbers of single, childless urbanites.
  - ocschwar 7y ago
    In the Netherlands? You can. But it then sinks into the polders.
mcv 7y ago
I think cycling is inherently more a local thing than cars. Nobody needs interstate or international bicycle paths, because nobody cycles that far. So it makes sense that the interest is more local, and maybe that's also why smaller countries like Denmark and Netherland are more successful at it. Bicycle infrastructure is primarily about towns and cities. So if you want this big push, you have to do it at the city level, but not just a bike path here or there, but redesign the entire city for bicycles. Have bike thoroughfares, make sure bikes are the best way to get around the center, and for any kind of traffic that stays within a town or borough. Cars are only for getting out of the city. Many Dutch towns are increasingly redesigned with that idea in mind, most thoroughly perhaps the town of Houten[0], where the only way to get anywhere by car is to take the ring road, whereas bikes get quick shortcuts through the center. That makes bicycles attractive and keeps the pollution from cars out of the center. Travel within the town will favour the bike because it's easier and quicker than a car, which reduces the amount of car traffic, and reduces congestion and pollution. That's the level at which you need to address this. Well, that and revoking any national helmet laws for bikes, because that's been shown to keep people in cars. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houten https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houten
- gbrown 7y ago
  > Nobody needs interstate or international bicycle paths, because nobody cycles that far. IMHO, this is 120% just a chicken and egg problem. Sure, nobody bikes that far to work, but if you build it people can and will travel large distances to visit just to go on bike tours. In my state, we have an annual event which attracts thousands in which people bike hundreds of miles from one side to the other. Rural highways are closed down/protected for bikes, but just for that one week.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    You aren’t wrong from a recreational perspective. But from a practical one meant to alleviate traffic and pollution, long distance intercity biking is less viable in addressing those compared to public transit.

barney54 7y ago

I agree that it's a balancing act, but what are we balancing? What are we maximizing for? It's critical we ask the right questions. For example, why has bike commuting declined recently in the United States? https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/01/02/bike-work-fewer-americans-new-trails-share-programs/2319972002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/01/02/bike-w... It's not like cities like San Francisco and Seattle became bike hostile (if they have, I haven't heard it). Bike commuting is only used by 1 percent of people in large metro areas in the United States. https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/databook/travel-mode-shares-in-the-u-s/ https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/databook/travel-mode-sha... Public transportation use is also falling in the United States. https://www.govtech.com/fs/transportation/2018-Was-the-Year-of-the-Car-and-Transit-Ridership-Felt-It.html https://www.govtech.com/fs/transportation/2018-Was-the-Year-... I love bike commuting. My life is better when I ride my bike to work, but I can't always do it. It's critical that as we think about the future we think about how to improve personal mobility. That's the key. I'm skeptical that the future is automobiles with single occupants or bikes or scooters. People will gravitate toward toward personalized transportation that gets to where they want to be comfortably, quickly, and within their budgets.

Tade0 7y ago
What are we maximizing for? I guess it's a multi-criteria decision problem. On one hand we want people to get where they want to as quickly as possible, on the other we want the city to be "liveable" and safe. Only "livability" isn't measurable here. IIRC the Dutch maximised mostly for safety.
naravara 7y ago
I think declining transit ridership and bike commuting can both be partly attributed to heavily subsidized rideshare services. Once those things hit prices commensurate to their actual cost of operation you might see that trend reverse.

claudeganon 7y ago

It may seem tangential, but I think that biking culture can’t really take off in the US without universal, good quality healthcare. I’ve had a couple of friends suffer some serious and very expensive accidents and it has certainly made me hesitant to ride as much. When combined with the fact that US car culture has created circumstances in many states where you can kill bicyclists and more or less get away it, seems like a losing bet.

rapnie 7y ago
Yes, these may be very inhibiting factors. It's a bit of a chicken/egg problem too, because once bycicle culture grows, road safety also increases significantly: > Despite the relative safety compared to automobiles, the number of fatalities and hospitalizations from cycling is significantly greater in the United States compared to other western states such as Germany, Canada, and the Netherlands. In a 2014 analysis, incidence of cycling death took place at a mean rate of 4.7 deaths per 100 million kilometers cycled in the U.S., compared to 1.3 deaths per 100 million kilometers in Germany, 1.0 in the Netherlands, and 1.1 in Denmark. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_safety#Crashes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_safety#Crashes

brnt 7y ago

As a Dutchman who's lived in a few places abroad, the cycling 'problem' is quite simple: it needs to be the norm. No helmet, because neither do you require them for pedestrians. You can cycle in all weather, just as you would walking (a hard mental one, my non-Dutch partner can't get over the idea cycling is for sunshine). Public space design must start with safe (no sharp turns, looking at you France!) and separate cycling lanes. Perhaps the fact that urban cycling infra is a much cheaper/efficient use of public land could be more emphasized. In urban areas, cycling is faster, and electric biking is expanding your reach a few times over. There are people who bike a 30km commute without breaking a sweat (see bike highways). Sure, there will always be situations where it will be difficult, such as steep areas (electric bikes can do a lot here, as well as accepting a little sweating which is normal in NL) or heat that exceeds body temperatures which in turn makes expiration impossible (no easy solutions for this one). But that leaves most of the urban areas on this globe perfectly suitable for cycling, which would be in everybody's favor, and their own first and foremost.

aidenn0 7y ago
I live in a very mild clime, but still don't bike when it's rainy. What do you suggest gear-wise for bicycling in say 5-10C but wet? I have a 30 minute bicycle commute that I'd like to do more often. A typical waist-length jacket leaves most of my body wet, but a longer jacket is awkward to bike in. If it's over 10C, I can just wear shorts that don't absorb water, but under 10, it gets quite uncomfortable.
- renjimen 7y ago
  Rain pants? Pretty standard here in Copenhagen. It helps if it's coldish, otherwise you either sweat more or cycle slower. A change of shoes and socks can also be appreciated if it's tipping it down.
- adrianN 7y ago
  5-10C but wet is easy mode. Use a rain jacket, rain pants, and rain spats (optional). It's harder when it's warm and wet, as you can choose between getting wet from the rain, or sweating under your waterproof gear.

cyborgx7 7y ago

I disagree. There is no need for a "balancing act" between cars and public transport. More public transport and less cars is always an improvement.

bluGill 7y ago
Eventually that isn't practical though. You cannot take a pallet of anything on any sort of transit and never will, it will always be delivered on non-public systems. Your new couch has the same problem. Train tracks to your front door are easy to imagine, but the flexibility of roads (with cars and trucks on it) is a lot more cost effective.
- cyborgx7 7y ago
  This is a silly thing to jump towards in the discussion, since it's not like we are anywhere close to the situation in which we have next to no private transport. In fact, we are almost at the other extreme. But if I was to indulge you, I would say that public transport doesn't mean rails. In the case of buses it also uses roads. And of course, if we were to abolish all motorized private person transport (again, no where even close to that) of course there would need to be a system to allow for the transport of items that are too big to be transported by individuals in public transport. I assumed that goes without saying.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    I didn't jump there. The parent statement is "More public transport and less cars is always an improvement" jumped there.
    - cyborgx7 7y ago
      Pretty sure that was you.
      - CDSlice 7y ago
        > I disagree. There is no need for a "balancing act" between cars and public transport. More public transport and less cars is always an improvement. Sound familiar?

davidw 7y ago

Cycling was also a 'right tool for the job' where I lived in Italy. But the US is so far behind from that point of view that it's going to take a massive effort to stop subsidizing and requiring (via zoning) driving and facilitating other means of getting around. I think that most of the anti-car mentality comes from how difficult this fight has been.