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I think of this issue in a much more mundane way all the time. When looking for product reviews, for example, the top results are, in my experience, unusable. A

I think of this issue in a much more mundane way all the time. When looking for product reviews, for example, the top results are, in my experience, unusable. A search for espresso machine reviews returns SEO driven results, and even the more genuine-looking results (sorry BusinessInsider, but I don't need your input) seem to exclusively list products which the site manager can get a referral link for. I don't mind the idea of referral links in theory, but what happens to the entry that would be #1 except for not being available on Amazon? I don't know that there was ever a golden age of espresso machine reviews online, but I do think that my trust in the quality of information I find through general searches has dramatically fallen in the last ten years. I imagine there is a Facebook group that might have better perspectives, or 'Coffee Twitter', but neither of those are easy to discover through Google, and multiplying my search area across them all (reddit too, I suppose) gets burdensome quickly. So I'm not sure that the internet of creation has disappeared as much as it may have become hidden. Either within walled gardens or by the professionalization of page rank by SEO pros (against whom Joe's coffee corner cannot hope to compete). Either way, search suggests a much less creative internet than might actually be there.

microcolonel 7y ago
America's Test Kitchen does the best appliance reviews IMO, not sure if they cover espresso, but their pick for drip coffee machines was spot on for me.
hollerith 7y ago
Agreed. If I could search the web of the year 2000 using the Google Search of 2000, I would prefer it to searching the web of today about half the time (specifically, when the knowledge I seek hasn't changed much since 2000.)
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
https://www.millionshort.com/ https://www.millionshort.com/ Can be a big help here - search without the top million (or 100k etc) results - the SEO driven and commercial giants. Results vary, but I find it really useful when the main results are all engagement ad driven crap. Some of the old-school web is still around, it's just down on page 20+ of Google and Bing.
- tomc1985 7y ago
  I really like this idea -- it seems like it would be impossible to optimize both for Google and something like this
- samfriedman 7y ago
  !mill in DDG :)
hyperpallium 7y ago
An opportunity for a different kind of search. SEO is tuned for Google, making it the inevitable victim of its own success. Let a thousand algorithms bloom! Maybe we'll get a variety of search engine styles, in the same way we have different blood types to frustrate blood parasites.
- Y_Y 7y ago
  > Differing views and solutions to national policy were encouraged based on the famous expression by Communist Party Chairman Mao Zedong: "The policy of letting a hundred flowers bloom and a hundred schools of thought contend is designed to promote the flourishing of the arts and the progress of science".The movement was in part a response to the demoralization of intellectuals, who felt estranged from the Communist Party. > After this brief period of liberalization, Mao cracked down on those who criticized the communist regime. This is just a ploy by Google to flush out dissenters.
fossuser 7y ago
My default for those kinds of queries now is “<item> reddit”. Google results are generally poor otherwise. I’m not sure if this is because their algorithms are gamed or if it’s just because the internet outside of the main website hubs is just generally low quality (most high quality content has moved to hubs like reddit).
- clarkmoody 7y ago
  I've found that highly-developed wikis on certain subreddits feel more genuine and trustworthy than anything else out there.
- mc32 7y ago
  It’s s sad state of affairs for product search. I do the same (site:reddit) and I’m almost certain most people do too. Google search I guess is good for entertainment search or “buzzy” things like whatever is trending on the trendsetting social networks of the day, but regular search is too spammy and farmed stuff. Often it’s junk.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    I don’t think most people do, because if they did, Reddit would also be gamed.
    - dceddia 7y ago
      Not saying it is, but, how would you know it isn't? I imagine that either "they" (the advertisers/companies) have either already figured this out and are learning how to leave grassroots-looking comments, or they will pretty soon.
      - lotsofpulp 7y ago
        I don’t know for sure, and I bet some of it is gamed (all the popular AMA type and celebrity worship or marketing crap sure is), but I think I’ve been able to glean some real comments in the niche sections, based on the history of people giving recommendations or multiple threads over the years with similar conclusions.
skybrian 7y ago
I don't trust general impressions about whether things are getting better or worse. Maybe our expectations when it comes to always finding specialized information on the Internet have gradually increased without our really noticing it? In the early days of the Internet, for example, I wouldn't expect specialized information about, say, car repair to be found online anywhere, because the people who obsessed about that sort of thing weren't online. You did find some really specialized stuff, but it was more serendipity and hit-and-miss. You couldn't count on finding what you need. These days, we tend to assume it's all out there, somewhere, and we should be able to find it with a simple search, assuming we can figure out the right keywords.
- thrower123 7y ago
  Good quality sources of information were rare enough and difficult enough to find that one actually made the effort to use, organize, and jealously guard bookmarks. You actually had to dig through and crawl the links yourself, so when you found something, you bookmarked it lest you never find it again. I don't remember the last time I bothered to bookmark anything that way.
gniv 7y ago
"Business" idea: A search engine that searches just user comments and reviews (on HN, Reddit, Amazon, Google Maps, etc etc).
- TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
  Advanced Search
  - afarviral 7y ago
    Out of curiosity how would create an advanced search string for this?
    - rahidz 7y ago
      Trial and error, something like "espresso machine" review OR recommend site:reddit.com or "espresso machine" review OR recommend site:news.ycombinator.com works well
    - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
      Sorry, got distracted earlier. What I mean was: it’d be good if there were more options via, say, drop down menus, or whatever. I vaguely recall this being a thing in some distant past?
- zone411 7y ago
  This has been done for forums: BoardReader.com. Google also had Discussion search previously. Now you can add "forum" to your Google searches.
inimino 7y ago
> golden age of espresso machine reviews Probably when the first search result was a hobby page maintained by an espresso machine enthusiast. Those days ended early, but I remember the pre-commercial Web and it was a very different place.
- phs318u 7y ago
  I remember using a work sponsored subscription to Compuserve back in the day, and finding it incredibly useful. Signal to noise ratio was awesome (for a pretty narrow set of subject areas). I guess there’s something to be said - in certain domains - for a real, direct cost, acting as a barrier to bots and “frivolous” use. Having to pay to publish (and to consume) separates the diamonds from the diarrhoea. However this is really just saying that “walled gardens” are nice. I don’t think a return to this approach is viable except in specific knowledge domains (where the knowledge is explicitly highly valued). Espresso machine reviews (as per example floating around in this thread) may not be such a domain.
  - krageon 7y ago
    Companies have deep marketing pockets and can therefore afford to saturate walled gardens protected by payment with shit.
CapsAdmin 7y ago
I imagine if everyone starts doing this, Reddit will suffer the exact same fate as the internet described here. To me this feels a bit like saying the music scene used to be better but now it's all calculated pop garbage. But really the music scene is bigger and more diverse than ever, it's just that pop music is what you'll find on the front page if you will. The surface of anything, be it a city, street, store, product, hobby, etc, will always be susceptible to marketing and manipulation. If you first-result your way to visit a new country you can easily end up flying to its main city, take an extremely expensive taxi from the airport to some luxurious looking hotel, where a tour company has scheduled your entire stay in various touristic areas and restaurants. Some people enjoy this experience, and there's nothing wrong with it, but it's a typical first-result experience of traveling.
shostack 7y ago
As another commenter mentioned, append "Reddit" to your query. It was a huge help when researching my nicer espresso machine and grinder. I've also had luck once I manage to find an active forum elsewhere for a given topic like homebarista for espresso. I can then likewise modify queries with that site.
colechristensen 7y ago
the key is money. google wants to get paid, blog writers want to get paid, manufacturers want to make sales the people with the lesser interest in profit (or attention $ instead of quality get buried because they dont make anybody else any money
Nasrudith 7y ago
SEO has always been an arms race between the crap and what people actually want with the Joe's coffee corner caught in the middle. I remember earlier Google for instance having more keyword and snippet spam pages. I am glad they are largely gone but now reviews are loaded with purchased shills.
mr__y 7y ago
>here is a Facebook group that might have better perspectives, or 'Coffee Twitter', but neither of those are easy to discover through Google I'm seeing this as a growing problem, more and more content exists that is not accessible for Google and therefore not searchable
zone411 7y ago
Add "forum" to your google searches. You'd find genuine reviews here: http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines
cowpig 7y ago
ConsumerSearch is the best thing I've found for this purpose specifically https://www.consumersearch.com/ https://www.consumersearch.com/

microcolonel 7y ago

America's Test Kitchen does the best appliance reviews IMO, not sure if they cover espresso, but their pick for drip coffee machines was spot on for me.

hollerith 7y ago

Agreed. If I could search the web of the year 2000 using the Google Search of 2000, I would prefer it to searching the web of today about half the time (specifically, when the knowledge I seek hasn't changed much since 2000.)

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

https://www.millionshort.com/ https://www.millionshort.com/ Can be a big help here - search without the top million (or 100k etc) results - the SEO driven and commercial giants. Results vary, but I find it really useful when the main results are all engagement ad driven crap. Some of the old-school web is still around, it's just down on page 20+ of Google and Bing.

tomc1985 7y ago
I really like this idea -- it seems like it would be impossible to optimize both for Google and something like this
samfriedman 7y ago
!mill in DDG :)

hyperpallium 7y ago

An opportunity for a different kind of search. SEO is tuned for Google, making it the inevitable victim of its own success. Let a thousand algorithms bloom! Maybe we'll get a variety of search engine styles, in the same way we have different blood types to frustrate blood parasites.

Y_Y 7y ago
> Differing views and solutions to national policy were encouraged based on the famous expression by Communist Party Chairman Mao Zedong: "The policy of letting a hundred flowers bloom and a hundred schools of thought contend is designed to promote the flourishing of the arts and the progress of science".The movement was in part a response to the demoralization of intellectuals, who felt estranged from the Communist Party. > After this brief period of liberalization, Mao cracked down on those who criticized the communist regime. This is just a ploy by Google to flush out dissenters.

fossuser 7y ago

My default for those kinds of queries now is “<item> reddit”. Google results are generally poor otherwise. I’m not sure if this is because their algorithms are gamed or if it’s just because the internet outside of the main website hubs is just generally low quality (most high quality content has moved to hubs like reddit).

clarkmoody 7y ago
I've found that highly-developed wikis on certain subreddits feel more genuine and trustworthy than anything else out there.
mc32 7y ago
It’s s sad state of affairs for product search. I do the same (site:reddit) and I’m almost certain most people do too. Google search I guess is good for entertainment search or “buzzy” things like whatever is trending on the trendsetting social networks of the day, but regular search is too spammy and farmed stuff. Often it’s junk.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  I don’t think most people do, because if they did, Reddit would also be gamed.
  - dceddia 7y ago
    Not saying it is, but, how would you know it isn't? I imagine that either "they" (the advertisers/companies) have either already figured this out and are learning how to leave grassroots-looking comments, or they will pretty soon.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      I don’t know for sure, and I bet some of it is gamed (all the popular AMA type and celebrity worship or marketing crap sure is), but I think I’ve been able to glean some real comments in the niche sections, based on the history of people giving recommendations or multiple threads over the years with similar conclusions.

skybrian 7y ago

I don't trust general impressions about whether things are getting better or worse. Maybe our expectations when it comes to always finding specialized information on the Internet have gradually increased without our really noticing it? In the early days of the Internet, for example, I wouldn't expect specialized information about, say, car repair to be found online anywhere, because the people who obsessed about that sort of thing weren't online. You did find some really specialized stuff, but it was more serendipity and hit-and-miss. You couldn't count on finding what you need. These days, we tend to assume it's all out there, somewhere, and we should be able to find it with a simple search, assuming we can figure out the right keywords.

thrower123 7y ago
Good quality sources of information were rare enough and difficult enough to find that one actually made the effort to use, organize, and jealously guard bookmarks. You actually had to dig through and crawl the links yourself, so when you found something, you bookmarked it lest you never find it again. I don't remember the last time I bothered to bookmark anything that way.

gniv 7y ago

"Business" idea: A search engine that searches just user comments and reviews (on HN, Reddit, Amazon, Google Maps, etc etc).

TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
Advanced Search
- afarviral 7y ago
  Out of curiosity how would create an advanced search string for this?
  - rahidz 7y ago
    Trial and error, something like "espresso machine" review OR recommend site:reddit.com or "espresso machine" review OR recommend site:news.ycombinator.com works well
  - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
    Sorry, got distracted earlier. What I mean was: it’d be good if there were more options via, say, drop down menus, or whatever. I vaguely recall this being a thing in some distant past?
zone411 7y ago
This has been done for forums: BoardReader.com. Google also had Discussion search previously. Now you can add "forum" to your Google searches.

inimino 7y ago

> golden age of espresso machine reviews Probably when the first search result was a hobby page maintained by an espresso machine enthusiast. Those days ended early, but I remember the pre-commercial Web and it was a very different place.

phs318u 7y ago
I remember using a work sponsored subscription to Compuserve back in the day, and finding it incredibly useful. Signal to noise ratio was awesome (for a pretty narrow set of subject areas). I guess there’s something to be said - in certain domains - for a real, direct cost, acting as a barrier to bots and “frivolous” use. Having to pay to publish (and to consume) separates the diamonds from the diarrhoea. However this is really just saying that “walled gardens” are nice. I don’t think a return to this approach is viable except in specific knowledge domains (where the knowledge is explicitly highly valued). Espresso machine reviews (as per example floating around in this thread) may not be such a domain.
- krageon 7y ago
  Companies have deep marketing pockets and can therefore afford to saturate walled gardens protected by payment with shit.

CapsAdmin 7y ago

I imagine if everyone starts doing this, Reddit will suffer the exact same fate as the internet described here. To me this feels a bit like saying the music scene used to be better but now it's all calculated pop garbage. But really the music scene is bigger and more diverse than ever, it's just that pop music is what you'll find on the front page if you will. The surface of anything, be it a city, street, store, product, hobby, etc, will always be susceptible to marketing and manipulation. If you first-result your way to visit a new country you can easily end up flying to its main city, take an extremely expensive taxi from the airport to some luxurious looking hotel, where a tour company has scheduled your entire stay in various touristic areas and restaurants. Some people enjoy this experience, and there's nothing wrong with it, but it's a typical first-result experience of traveling.

shostack 7y ago

As another commenter mentioned, append "Reddit" to your query. It was a huge help when researching my nicer espresso machine and grinder. I've also had luck once I manage to find an active forum elsewhere for a given topic like homebarista for espresso. I can then likewise modify queries with that site.

colechristensen 7y ago

the key is money. google wants to get paid, blog writers want to get paid, manufacturers want to make sales the people with the lesser interest in profit (or attention $ instead of quality get buried because they dont make anybody else any money

Nasrudith 7y ago

SEO has always been an arms race between the crap and what people actually want with the Joe's coffee corner caught in the middle. I remember earlier Google for instance having more keyword and snippet spam pages. I am glad they are largely gone but now reviews are loaded with purchased shills.

mr__y 7y ago

>here is a Facebook group that might have better perspectives, or 'Coffee Twitter', but neither of those are easy to discover through Google I'm seeing this as a growing problem, more and more content exists that is not accessible for Google and therefore not searchable

zone411 7y ago

Add "forum" to your google searches. You'd find genuine reviews here: http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines

cowpig 7y ago

ConsumerSearch is the best thing I've found for this purpose specifically https://www.consumersearch.com/ https://www.consumersearch.com/