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While on this issue I mostly agree with the defendant, I think it's reasonable to protect certain titles (engineer, doctor, lawyer, dentist). For a parallel sit

While on this issue I mostly agree with the defendant, I think it's reasonable to protect certain titles (engineer, doctor, lawyer, dentist). For a parallel situation, imagine a hypothetical person named Phil, who has a doctorate in psychology. They call themselves "doctor" and give medical advise to the unwitting public, despite having no relevant training. In this case, the guy had training as an electric engineer, but was commenting outside of his proven realm of expertise. However, he wasn't deceiving the public by representing himself as an engineer-for-hire, though, which I think makes it forgivable. I just found the free speech ruling to be over-broad.

henryfjordan 7y ago
The courts very much got it right in this case. Joe Shmoe has health problems and will listen to a "doctor" but they don't have a bridge half-built in their backyard or an automotive manufacturing setup. There's just no risk to letting people say they are engineers, and the first amendment should only be infringed upon for good reason. Let's take this case as an example. Anyone can send a letter saying "The traffic light is too short; here's the math to prove it". Saying "I'm an engineer" might help you get that letter noticed, but it would almost certainly be illegal to reprogram the light without a professional engineer's sign-off independent of that letter no matter the person's qualifications. The state was never at risk of acting on his advice no matter how he represented himself. So why not let him say it?
- grepthisab 7y ago
  No pretending to be an engineer can have deadly consequences. Imagine someone saying they're an engineer and being contracted to build a bridge or building. That could (and has) have disastrous consequences.
  - NOGDP 7y ago
    You can be an engineer without an engineering license. Safety-critical jobs usually require a professional engineering license, but there are a lot of engineering work which is not safety-critical.
    - SECProto 7y ago
      When it comes to civil stuff (i.e. the safety critical thing people think of when they hear engineer - bridges, buildings, highways, flood protection...) you absolutely can't call yourself an engineer without professional accreditation in every jurisdiction I know.
      - NOGDP 7y ago
        Even then (buildings for example), I believe some of the work can be done by non-licensed engineers. Stuff like land surveying, some electrical, CAD/modelling work, design of plumbing, heating, etc. can be done without license. I know a few people that aren't licensed but work on condos as engineers. I'm guessing a lot of the stuff has to be reviewed/approved by a licensed engineer, but that could be 1 to 5 licensed:unlicensed for example.
        SECProto 7y ago
        Definitely! Engineers don't do all the work. But if you're working in the field, you don't call yourself an engineer unless you're licensed. (For context: I work in the field and am not a registered engineer, though I studied it in university. I would never call myself an engineer)
        richk449 7y ago
        You have an engineering degree, but you wouldn’t call yourself an engineer? What do you call yourself?
        SECProto 7y ago
        An engineering graduate, or an engineer-in-training. You can call yourself an engineer once you have several years of experience, pass some exams on law and ethics and whatnot, and get a professional designation.
        7y ago
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    I could at least pretend that might happen if there was only one kind of engineer. But someone that incompetent at hiring might also hire the wrong kind of engineer. The rule doesn't do anything to help.
    - slavik81 7y ago
      A P.Eng. is professionally obligated to refuse work that they're not competent to perform. You can't hire the wrong kind of engineer, because the engineer knows if they're the right kind or not.
      - ultrarunner 7y ago
        Then the wrong engineer just also shirks professional obligation.
        slavik81 7y ago
        Which would result in their license to practice being revoked by the professional association. It takes ~8 years to fulfill the requirements to acquire a professional license. It's not worth the risk of being caught.
        slavik81 7y ago
        Just to expand, I've never heard of an engineer from the wrong field signing off on a document (e.g. an EE signing off on a structure), but here's a lesser example of unskilled practice and the corresponding disciplinary action: https://www.apega.ca/assets/PDFs/discipline-decisions/18-011-RDO.pdf https://www.apega.ca/assets/PDFs/discipline-decisions/18-011...
  - kortilla 7y ago
    Well they couldn’t sign off on the part that requires a registered engineer... soooooo
  - solotronics 7y ago
    I am a network engineer and as far as I know there is no professional board for this.
    - erikpukinskis 7y ago
      That means you’re not an engineer. That’s not an insult, I’m sure you’re quite skilled. But outside of the software industry “engineer” is a term that signifies certification.
madamelic 7y ago
>I think it's reasonable to protect certain titles (engineer, doctor, lawyer, dentist). I've always wondered this: why are software engineers allowed to use the title "Engineer" but aren't at all required to do FE or any certification? It's very strange. I always thought certification was about being able to be employed as an engineer, not use the title.
- benzofuran 7y ago
  Many times software engineers fall under the 'industrial exemption' for most states' professional practices acts. That's how many folks without a PE are able to be engineers - as long as they're not selling engineering services to the general public, but only to their employer. Things get trickier with software as well - with many engineering disciplines, the public can be placed in harm's way by the malpractice of engineering - that's why many civil firms require PE's. In other areas, it's less desirable - for defense contractors, many purposely avoid PE's due to our ethical obligations around harming the public. Surrounding software, I think a major part of it is just that the laws haven't caught up with the times. NCEES now has a Software PE available but no clue about the contents of the exam. It seems like a tricky one to test for.
  - WA9ACE 7y ago
    Looks like it got axed https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineering-exam/ https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineerin...
  - kabdib 7y ago
    The last time I saw the areas covered by a PE exam for Software Engineering was maybe 25 years ago, in California. Over half the exam was electrical engineering. Less than a third was actually about anything related to software. Near as I could tell, it was a rent-seeking and exclusionary agenda of some entrenched parties. The proposed exam requirement for software engineers didn't go anywhere.
  - caseysoftware 7y ago
    ABET has a Software Engineering program now - https://www.softwareengineerinsider.com/abet/abet-software-engineering-programs.html https://www.softwareengineerinsider.com/abet/abet-software-e... It has little to do with languages and frameworks and more on principles and practices. I'm biased as my undergrad was one of the first to become certified.
paulddraper 7y ago
And this is why the U.S. has notoriously expensive doctors, lawyers, dentists. And so dental tourism is a thing. While yes the quality will be very high, that's not summation of all that matters. If I am contesting traffic ticket, I might accept a lawyer without $300k in student debt. Same if I want a tooth cleaning or a strep test. By all means have bodies of accreditation but don't force me to use them, especially in common low-risk scenarios.
- SECProto 7y ago
  ? I live in Canada. Professionals of all stripes are expensive everywhere, but the US is exorbitant for other reasons.
  - paulddraper 7y ago
    Canada (and many other countries) also have required accreditation.
    - SECProto 7y ago
      Yes, we have accreditation and professional societies. And yet, our doctors and dentists are not "notoriously expensive". I'm saying the one does not necessarily cause the other.
eikenberry 7y ago
Just FYI many people with doctorates (not MDs) do call themselves doctors. I've known many Finance, Philosophy and Econ doctors in my time and they all use that title and their name plaques all had "Dr. So-and-so" on them. I'm sure it is common in other areas as well.
- SECProto 7y ago
  I know a few with PhDs, and they don't. Usually post-nominal credentials, rather than "doctor" before the name. Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean a whole lot. The giving-medical-advice thing was a dig at a formerly popular television host.
  - MereInterest 7y ago
    There is a difference between PhDs typically not introducing themselves as "Doctor" and saying that it is a falsehood when they do. That said, a doctor misrepresenting themself as a physician and giving medical advice where not licensed to do practice medicine, as done by Dr. Phil, is wildly unethical.
    - SECProto 7y ago
      Definitely, and if you read my original comment, I defended the engineer because he wasn't using the title as a deception or in soliciting business. Though he was potentially commenting outside his realm of expertise.
- LiquidSky 7y ago
  When we graduated from law school a friend of mine called our state bar association and asked about the ethical rules regarding an attorney calling themselves "doctor" since we have JDs. The answer for our state is that it's fine unless you practice in the area of medical malpractice, in which case it might cause confusion with clients and will be considered on a case-by-case basis if there is a complaint.
- Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
  I don't know how it works in America, but in Europe (or at least in the European countries I know) that's actually the formal standard. If you have a PhD, you earn the right to be called Dr. (name). If you get a degree in medicine, you are colloquially addressed as "doctor" but formally you aren't one, unless you get the PhD in medicine.
james_in_the_uk 7y ago
"Lawyer" doesn't tend to be a protected title (with some exceptions). Mostly it is used as a colloquial term for the protected professions e.g. attorney, solicitor, advocate etc.

henryfjordan 7y ago

The courts very much got it right in this case. Joe Shmoe has health problems and will listen to a "doctor" but they don't have a bridge half-built in their backyard or an automotive manufacturing setup. There's just no risk to letting people say they are engineers, and the first amendment should only be infringed upon for good reason. Let's take this case as an example. Anyone can send a letter saying "The traffic light is too short; here's the math to prove it". Saying "I'm an engineer" might help you get that letter noticed, but it would almost certainly be illegal to reprogram the light without a professional engineer's sign-off independent of that letter no matter the person's qualifications. The state was never at risk of acting on his advice no matter how he represented himself. So why not let him say it?

grepthisab 7y ago
No pretending to be an engineer can have deadly consequences. Imagine someone saying they're an engineer and being contracted to build a bridge or building. That could (and has) have disastrous consequences.
- NOGDP 7y ago
  You can be an engineer without an engineering license. Safety-critical jobs usually require a professional engineering license, but there are a lot of engineering work which is not safety-critical.
  - SECProto 7y ago
    When it comes to civil stuff (i.e. the safety critical thing people think of when they hear engineer - bridges, buildings, highways, flood protection...) you absolutely can't call yourself an engineer without professional accreditation in every jurisdiction I know.
    - NOGDP 7y ago
      Even then (buildings for example), I believe some of the work can be done by non-licensed engineers. Stuff like land surveying, some electrical, CAD/modelling work, design of plumbing, heating, etc. can be done without license. I know a few people that aren't licensed but work on condos as engineers. I'm guessing a lot of the stuff has to be reviewed/approved by a licensed engineer, but that could be 1 to 5 licensed:unlicensed for example.
      - SECProto 7y ago
        Definitely! Engineers don't do all the work. But if you're working in the field, you don't call yourself an engineer unless you're licensed. (For context: I work in the field and am not a registered engineer, though I studied it in university. I would never call myself an engineer)
        richk449 7y ago
        You have an engineering degree, but you wouldn’t call yourself an engineer? What do you call yourself?
        SECProto 7y ago
        An engineering graduate, or an engineer-in-training. You can call yourself an engineer once you have several years of experience, pass some exams on law and ethics and whatnot, and get a professional designation.
        7y ago
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Dylan16807 7y ago
  I could at least pretend that might happen if there was only one kind of engineer. But someone that incompetent at hiring might also hire the wrong kind of engineer. The rule doesn't do anything to help.
  - slavik81 7y ago
    A P.Eng. is professionally obligated to refuse work that they're not competent to perform. You can't hire the wrong kind of engineer, because the engineer knows if they're the right kind or not.
    - ultrarunner 7y ago
      Then the wrong engineer just also shirks professional obligation.
      - slavik81 7y ago
        Which would result in their license to practice being revoked by the professional association. It takes ~8 years to fulfill the requirements to acquire a professional license. It's not worth the risk of being caught.
        slavik81 7y ago
        Just to expand, I've never heard of an engineer from the wrong field signing off on a document (e.g. an EE signing off on a structure), but here's a lesser example of unskilled practice and the corresponding disciplinary action: https://www.apega.ca/assets/PDFs/discipline-decisions/18-011-RDO.pdf https://www.apega.ca/assets/PDFs/discipline-decisions/18-011...
- kortilla 7y ago
  Well they couldn’t sign off on the part that requires a registered engineer... soooooo
- solotronics 7y ago
  I am a network engineer and as far as I know there is no professional board for this.
  - erikpukinskis 7y ago
    That means you’re not an engineer. That’s not an insult, I’m sure you’re quite skilled. But outside of the software industry “engineer” is a term that signifies certification.

madamelic 7y ago

>I think it's reasonable to protect certain titles (engineer, doctor, lawyer, dentist). I've always wondered this: why are software engineers allowed to use the title "Engineer" but aren't at all required to do FE or any certification? It's very strange. I always thought certification was about being able to be employed as an engineer, not use the title.

benzofuran 7y ago
Many times software engineers fall under the 'industrial exemption' for most states' professional practices acts. That's how many folks without a PE are able to be engineers - as long as they're not selling engineering services to the general public, but only to their employer. Things get trickier with software as well - with many engineering disciplines, the public can be placed in harm's way by the malpractice of engineering - that's why many civil firms require PE's. In other areas, it's less desirable - for defense contractors, many purposely avoid PE's due to our ethical obligations around harming the public. Surrounding software, I think a major part of it is just that the laws haven't caught up with the times. NCEES now has a Software PE available but no clue about the contents of the exam. It seems like a tricky one to test for.
- WA9ACE 7y ago
  Looks like it got axed https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineering-exam/ https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineerin...
- kabdib 7y ago
  The last time I saw the areas covered by a PE exam for Software Engineering was maybe 25 years ago, in California. Over half the exam was electrical engineering. Less than a third was actually about anything related to software. Near as I could tell, it was a rent-seeking and exclusionary agenda of some entrenched parties. The proposed exam requirement for software engineers didn't go anywhere.
- caseysoftware 7y ago
  ABET has a Software Engineering program now - https://www.softwareengineerinsider.com/abet/abet-software-engineering-programs.html https://www.softwareengineerinsider.com/abet/abet-software-e... It has little to do with languages and frameworks and more on principles and practices. I'm biased as my undergrad was one of the first to become certified.

paulddraper 7y ago

And this is why the U.S. has notoriously expensive doctors, lawyers, dentists. And so dental tourism is a thing. While yes the quality will be very high, that's not summation of all that matters. If I am contesting traffic ticket, I might accept a lawyer without $300k in student debt. Same if I want a tooth cleaning or a strep test. By all means have bodies of accreditation but don't force me to use them, especially in common low-risk scenarios.

SECProto 7y ago
? I live in Canada. Professionals of all stripes are expensive everywhere, but the US is exorbitant for other reasons.
- paulddraper 7y ago
  Canada (and many other countries) also have required accreditation.
  - SECProto 7y ago
    Yes, we have accreditation and professional societies. And yet, our doctors and dentists are not "notoriously expensive". I'm saying the one does not necessarily cause the other.

eikenberry 7y ago

Just FYI many people with doctorates (not MDs) do call themselves doctors. I've known many Finance, Philosophy and Econ doctors in my time and they all use that title and their name plaques all had "Dr. So-and-so" on them. I'm sure it is common in other areas as well.

SECProto 7y ago
I know a few with PhDs, and they don't. Usually post-nominal credentials, rather than "doctor" before the name. Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean a whole lot. The giving-medical-advice thing was a dig at a formerly popular television host.
- MereInterest 7y ago
  There is a difference between PhDs typically not introducing themselves as "Doctor" and saying that it is a falsehood when they do. That said, a doctor misrepresenting themself as a physician and giving medical advice where not licensed to do practice medicine, as done by Dr. Phil, is wildly unethical.
  - SECProto 7y ago
    Definitely, and if you read my original comment, I defended the engineer because he wasn't using the title as a deception or in soliciting business. Though he was potentially commenting outside his realm of expertise.
LiquidSky 7y ago
When we graduated from law school a friend of mine called our state bar association and asked about the ethical rules regarding an attorney calling themselves "doctor" since we have JDs. The answer for our state is that it's fine unless you practice in the area of medical malpractice, in which case it might cause confusion with clients and will be considered on a case-by-case basis if there is a complaint.
Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
I don't know how it works in America, but in Europe (or at least in the European countries I know) that's actually the formal standard. If you have a PhD, you earn the right to be called Dr. (name). If you get a degree in medicine, you are colloquially addressed as "doctor" but formally you aren't one, unless you get the PhD in medicine.

james_in_the_uk 7y ago

"Lawyer" doesn't tend to be a protected title (with some exceptions). Mostly it is used as a colloquial term for the protected professions e.g. attorney, solicitor, advocate etc.