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You are attributing the profitability of software companies to what you think is the "underpaying" of its workers? And you think that unionization will lead to

by stvswn 7y ago

You are attributing the profitability of software companies to what you think is the "underpaying" of its workers? And you think that unionization will lead to higher wages? I'm just trying to understand the argument. If the software industry were to unionize, the union would want to collectively bargain for seniority-based job security rules and other schemes to prevent lower-paid new-hires (people not YET in the union) from taking work from existing union members. Other versions of this effect come in the form of union-imposed certification schemes in the trades, "tenure" rules in education, seniority precedence in picking hours in healthcare, etc. The net effect is that the experienced and powerful members make it hard for the young to get into the profession. I have a problem with that, ideologically. But, in more practical terms: collective bargaining only works to increase wages when the counterparty has no other option. This works when you're talking about workers at the docks: the docks are not going anywhere, the ships need to be unloaded, and you can't exactly bus in some scabs and expect it to work out. With software, what do you think will happen if a union somehow manages, via Swiss law, to unionize one Google office? It's software. Google will leave and hire elsewhere. This is exactly why Subaru and Toyota builds cars in the southern U.S. while Ford builds in Mexico, and why industries are flocking to non-union states, and why the people are going with them.

Daishiman 7y ago
> If the software industry were to unionize, the union would want to collectively bargain for seniority-based job security rules and other schemes to prevent lower-paid new-hires (people not YET in the union) from taking work from existing union members. Other versions of this effect come in the form of union-imposed certification schemes in the trades, "tenure" rules in education, seniority precedence in picking hours in healthcare, etc. The net effect is that the experienced and powerful members make it hard for the young to get into the profession. Wow, I didn't know the Writer's Guild and Actor's Guild in Hollywood had seniority-based positions.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  > Wow, I didn't know the Writer's Guild and Actor's Guild in Hollywood had seniority-based positions. The Writer’s Guild doesn’t have seniority based positions but it does have seniority based pay. That’s why after you get enough years experience in a writer’s room for tv shows work starts to dry up unless you become a show runner. So after ten or fifteen years of working in tv you have to do something else for many years until your awesome pension kicks in. The Actor’s Guild does work very hard to dualise acting, black listing anyone who works with non-members. The median member of the SAG doesn’t make much off it but the minimum rates the SAG negotiates mean if you have steady work you’re making a solid living. Without them many more people would be actors and fewer would make decent money at it.
defen 7y ago
The first part of your post (seniority-based rules, certifications, etc) shows a lack of imagination in terms of what a union can be. > With software, what do you think will happen if a union somehow manages, via Swiss law, to unionize one Google office? It's software. Google will leave and hire elsewhere. Does Google hire the best people, or is it a "body shop"? If they just shut down their Swiss office and fire everyone, I'd imagine there would be some impact on whatever projects those people were working on. There's a gradient here... if they demand 10x higher salaries, then yeah it's probably not going to work out. But maybe 10% higher salaries would actually be cheaper for Google than shutting everything down and starting over.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  > The first part of your post (seniority-based rules, certifications, etc) shows a lack of imagination in terms of what a union can be. Precisely because unions are set up to treat members equally they negotiate for the benefit of the median member. Individual unions can fight against the incentives for a while, sure, but first in last out, seniority based pat and restricting entry to keep benefits concentrated among current members crop up everywhere. Yugoslav employee owned companies, the kibbutzim and universities all show the same behaviors because they all face the same incentives. If you think some particular union will be different from the norm provide some argument as to why.
  - defen 7y ago
    Professional sports, Hollywood writers, and Hollywood actors all have unions without seniority-based pay or restricted entry.
    - esoterica 7y ago
      Professional sports absolutely have seniority based pay. Ever heard of rookie vs veteran contracts in the NFL?
      - barry-cotter 7y ago

by stvswn 7y ago

Daishiman 7y ago

> If the software industry were to unionize, the union would want to collectively bargain for seniority-based job security rules and other schemes to prevent lower-paid new-hires (people not YET in the union) from taking work from existing union members. Other versions of this effect come in the form of union-imposed certification schemes in the trades, "tenure" rules in education, seniority precedence in picking hours in healthcare, etc. The net effect is that the experienced and powerful members make it hard for the young to get into the profession. Wow, I didn't know the Writer's Guild and Actor's Guild in Hollywood had seniority-based positions.

barry-cotter 7y ago
> Wow, I didn't know the Writer's Guild and Actor's Guild in Hollywood had seniority-based positions. The Writer’s Guild doesn’t have seniority based positions but it does have seniority based pay. That’s why after you get enough years experience in a writer’s room for tv shows work starts to dry up unless you become a show runner. So after ten or fifteen years of working in tv you have to do something else for many years until your awesome pension kicks in. The Actor’s Guild does work very hard to dualise acting, black listing anyone who works with non-members. The median member of the SAG doesn’t make much off it but the minimum rates the SAG negotiates mean if you have steady work you’re making a solid living. Without them many more people would be actors and fewer would make decent money at it.

defen 7y ago

The first part of your post (seniority-based rules, certifications, etc) shows a lack of imagination in terms of what a union can be. > With software, what do you think will happen if a union somehow manages, via Swiss law, to unionize one Google office? It's software. Google will leave and hire elsewhere. Does Google hire the best people, or is it a "body shop"? If they just shut down their Swiss office and fire everyone, I'd imagine there would be some impact on whatever projects those people were working on. There's a gradient here... if they demand 10x higher salaries, then yeah it's probably not going to work out. But maybe 10% higher salaries would actually be cheaper for Google than shutting everything down and starting over.

barry-cotter 7y ago
> The first part of your post (seniority-based rules, certifications, etc) shows a lack of imagination in terms of what a union can be. Precisely because unions are set up to treat members equally they negotiate for the benefit of the median member. Individual unions can fight against the incentives for a while, sure, but first in last out, seniority based pat and restricting entry to keep benefits concentrated among current members crop up everywhere. Yugoslav employee owned companies, the kibbutzim and universities all show the same behaviors because they all face the same incentives. If you think some particular union will be different from the norm provide some argument as to why.
- defen 7y ago
  Professional sports, Hollywood writers, and Hollywood actors all have unions without seniority-based pay or restricted entry.
  - esoterica 7y ago
    Professional sports absolutely have seniority based pay. Ever heard of rookie vs veteran contracts in the NFL?
    - barry-cotter 7y ago