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Another great piece. The world is changing, in the same way that the printing press caused change, people to break away from the control of the church. For many

Another great piece. The world is changing, in the same way that the printing press caused change, people to break away from the control of the church. For many years it has been American views of freedom of the press that had a lot of sway in the world. > And then China is building its own internet focused on very different values, and is now exporting their vision of the internet to other countries. ... There’s no guarantee [American notions of free speech] ... values will win out. A decade ago, almost all of the major internet platforms were American. Today, six of the top ten are Chinese. > We’re beginning to see this in social media. While our services, like WhatsApp, are used by protesters and activists everywhere due to strong encryption and privacy protections, on TikTok, the Chinese app growing quickly around the world, mentions of these protests are censored, even in the US. Scary to think that China can force censorship here via TikTok. I'm not a tiktok user, but that's terrifying. Hidden, defacto commercial censorship. (edited to remove the > on the last thing above, that was my comment)

newfangle 7y ago
There is hidden and overt censorship. I actually find it absurd that we allow our children to use social media software developed by a hostile foreign power.
proc0 7y ago
It's western values vs. brainless sheeple asian values. I'm sorry but the atrocities of China are condoned by its people.
- WaxProlix 7y ago
  This is the sort of thougt-terminating cliche that western Sinophobia enables. If you simultaneously believe that Chinese people are just as capable of critical thought as Americans and that they often support their government, then you need to engage with that support in good faith and try to figure out why it'd be the case. Instead, I think we often look at this as 'if p and q then X; certainly not X; probably q; therefore not p; QED' For a nation that is overwhelmingly okay with (often vocally supportive of) our own actual concentration camps, we're weirdly obsessed with the faraway 're-education' camps of our main economic and socio-political rival. (I do want to say that I think China is, really, objectively worse when it comes to human rights violations than the US itself is. I just find the unanimity of our criticism vs that of ourselves or, say, Saudi Arabia, Chile, Brazil, or other US-aligned states to leave a sour taste in my mouth.) Edit: I forgot to tie this back in to the originally linked article. Basically, when we engage in criticism, we should in turn be critical of the interests of those whom that criticism serves. Zuckerberg wants us to believe in a Fifth Estate, of, for, and by the masses. We all probably know that this is double-speak aimed at protecting his own personal power and bottom line, but that narrative enables and supports external criticism, focused on his rivals the scary Chinese, rather than the already vast power that Facebook wields over us.
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    Americans are pretty unanimous in criticizing Saudi Arabia. The government often ends up on their side for geopolitical reasons, but the vast majority of American citizens and American media agree Saudi Arabia is a bad country doing terrible things.
    - WaxProlix 7y ago
      I think you're right about SA actually. While we all sort of forgot about it quickly afterwards, nobody was really in favor of what happened to Jamal Kashoggi, for instance. There are better examples I could have used there, especially if I were to go back into recent history.
  - TurkishPoptart 7y ago
    Thank you for saying this. Scholars are still trying to untangle the complex socio-cultural factors that kept the Soviet regime in power. Some of the newer theories concern language and value when trying to understand the relationships between Soviet citizens and the state itself, Soviet citizens among each other, as well as one's inner perception of themselves within the context of the system and the people within it. It's even harder when we don't have the benefit of hindsight when we have to analyze the present. >For a nation that is overwhelmingly okay with (often vocally supportive of) our own actual concentration camps, we're weirdly obsessed with the faraway 're-education' camps of our main economic and socio-political rival. This is the only point I think I disagree with. I haven't met any Americans in favor of the detention camps at the border. The big difference is that, in the Xinjiang province, the Uighur population is being detained and "re-educated" due to their ethnic and religious identity, which to Americans, sounds barbaric and Nazi-like.
    - WaxProlix 7y ago
      I don't know about that. There are plenty of people within the Trump base that are pro-detention centers; I don't expect you'd run into a lot of them in day to day life if you're an HN frequenter but not all of them advertise with crazy bumper sticker fiestas. I think I saw a ~41% approval in a WaPo article once, for instance. I've got some family in rural areas and their communities hold very different values to mine (and, by extension, maybe yours). As to the detention centers, they almost exclusively target the Hispanic (okay, and sometimes middle eastern) populations in areas; or do we think that the percentage of white Europeans in those centers is reflective of the number of invalid- or expired-visa, or otherwise illegitimately in-country European people?
- scarmig 7y ago
  "brainless sheeple asian values"? Many people would say that e.g. citizens of Taiwan are at least as critical thinking as citizens of the USA. Some would say even more so. Even within mainland China, you're understating the amount of free thought going on. As far as Western values go, you only have to go back as far as 2003 to see a nation whipped up into a hysterical rage against some imagined enemy, to the point where that nation bombed the shit out of that country and caused the deaths of half a million people.
  - khuey 7y ago
    If there's lots of "free thought going on", but none of it can be expressed due to iron-fisted suppression by the government, does it matter?
  - proc0 7y ago
    Right, I'm only talking about mainland China. It seems to me Taiwanese people are more/less on the same side as Hong Kong, in that they both dislike Chinese government. This is precisely what I'm talking about. What is it about mainland Chinese that either approve of all these human rights violation or turn a blind-eye. Either way they are siding with the Chinese government, and it seems that is how they see themselves, as an extension of the government. So then the question is, why would we also not blame the people who are basically saying they are part of the government, or at best they will not hold their own government accountable?
- yourbandsucks 7y ago
  Re: brainless sheeple asians Consider how easy it was to get you to believe cartoonish generalities about a billion people you've never met. Who's the sheep?
  - proc0 7y ago
    I can't think of any other explanation why so many people condone China government to that extent. When was the last Chinese protest? Why is it so many countries have citizens protesting all the time, yet I bet this never happens in China. I'm just making some observations, granted I didn't choose the best words.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - yourbandsucks 7y ago
      I appreciate the engagement. I'm not Chinese and either way I wouldn't speak for 1.6B people. I'll just note that there have been way more revolutions in China than in America over any timeframe, and they were all terrible. Things are going great for average Chinese people right now, and they have living memory of revolution, bloodshed, starvation, etc. Why fuck with it? Lock in the economic gains, and slow-march towards democracy. Xi is trying to move things in the wrong direction on the freedom front, and that's bad. The solution here is alliance with Chinese intellectuals, not opposition to 'China' that forces them onto their people's side.
      - proc0 7y ago
        Sure, fair point on siding with the people. I'll just add there is an element of holding the people accountable for what their government is doing, which is also why Americans got some flak during the Iraq war. I'll try to read more on this though.
- dang 7y ago
  If you post like this again we will ban you. Nationalistic flamewar is not welcome here, let alone this kind of slur. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

newfangle 7y ago

There is hidden and overt censorship. I actually find it absurd that we allow our children to use social media software developed by a hostile foreign power.

proc0 7y ago

It's western values vs. brainless sheeple asian values. I'm sorry but the atrocities of China are condoned by its people.

WaxProlix 7y ago
This is the sort of thougt-terminating cliche that western Sinophobia enables. If you simultaneously believe that Chinese people are just as capable of critical thought as Americans and that they often support their government, then you need to engage with that support in good faith and try to figure out why it'd be the case. Instead, I think we often look at this as 'if p and q then X; certainly not X; probably q; therefore not p; QED' For a nation that is overwhelmingly okay with (often vocally supportive of) our own actual concentration camps, we're weirdly obsessed with the faraway 're-education' camps of our main economic and socio-political rival. (I do want to say that I think China is, really, objectively worse when it comes to human rights violations than the US itself is. I just find the unanimity of our criticism vs that of ourselves or, say, Saudi Arabia, Chile, Brazil, or other US-aligned states to leave a sour taste in my mouth.) Edit: I forgot to tie this back in to the originally linked article. Basically, when we engage in criticism, we should in turn be critical of the interests of those whom that criticism serves. Zuckerberg wants us to believe in a Fifth Estate, of, for, and by the masses. We all probably know that this is double-speak aimed at protecting his own personal power and bottom line, but that narrative enables and supports external criticism, focused on his rivals the scary Chinese, rather than the already vast power that Facebook wields over us.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  Americans are pretty unanimous in criticizing Saudi Arabia. The government often ends up on their side for geopolitical reasons, but the vast majority of American citizens and American media agree Saudi Arabia is a bad country doing terrible things.
  - WaxProlix 7y ago
    I think you're right about SA actually. While we all sort of forgot about it quickly afterwards, nobody was really in favor of what happened to Jamal Kashoggi, for instance. There are better examples I could have used there, especially if I were to go back into recent history.
- TurkishPoptart 7y ago
  Thank you for saying this. Scholars are still trying to untangle the complex socio-cultural factors that kept the Soviet regime in power. Some of the newer theories concern language and value when trying to understand the relationships between Soviet citizens and the state itself, Soviet citizens among each other, as well as one's inner perception of themselves within the context of the system and the people within it. It's even harder when we don't have the benefit of hindsight when we have to analyze the present. >For a nation that is overwhelmingly okay with (often vocally supportive of) our own actual concentration camps, we're weirdly obsessed with the faraway 're-education' camps of our main economic and socio-political rival. This is the only point I think I disagree with. I haven't met any Americans in favor of the detention camps at the border. The big difference is that, in the Xinjiang province, the Uighur population is being detained and "re-educated" due to their ethnic and religious identity, which to Americans, sounds barbaric and Nazi-like.
  - WaxProlix 7y ago
    I don't know about that. There are plenty of people within the Trump base that are pro-detention centers; I don't expect you'd run into a lot of them in day to day life if you're an HN frequenter but not all of them advertise with crazy bumper sticker fiestas. I think I saw a ~41% approval in a WaPo article once, for instance. I've got some family in rural areas and their communities hold very different values to mine (and, by extension, maybe yours). As to the detention centers, they almost exclusively target the Hispanic (okay, and sometimes middle eastern) populations in areas; or do we think that the percentage of white Europeans in those centers is reflective of the number of invalid- or expired-visa, or otherwise illegitimately in-country European people?
scarmig 7y ago
"brainless sheeple asian values"? Many people would say that e.g. citizens of Taiwan are at least as critical thinking as citizens of the USA. Some would say even more so. Even within mainland China, you're understating the amount of free thought going on. As far as Western values go, you only have to go back as far as 2003 to see a nation whipped up into a hysterical rage against some imagined enemy, to the point where that nation bombed the shit out of that country and caused the deaths of half a million people.
- khuey 7y ago
  If there's lots of "free thought going on", but none of it can be expressed due to iron-fisted suppression by the government, does it matter?
- proc0 7y ago
  Right, I'm only talking about mainland China. It seems to me Taiwanese people are more/less on the same side as Hong Kong, in that they both dislike Chinese government. This is precisely what I'm talking about. What is it about mainland Chinese that either approve of all these human rights violation or turn a blind-eye. Either way they are siding with the Chinese government, and it seems that is how they see themselves, as an extension of the government. So then the question is, why would we also not blame the people who are basically saying they are part of the government, or at best they will not hold their own government accountable?
yourbandsucks 7y ago
Re: brainless sheeple asians Consider how easy it was to get you to believe cartoonish generalities about a billion people you've never met. Who's the sheep?
- proc0 7y ago
  I can't think of any other explanation why so many people condone China government to that extent. When was the last Chinese protest? Why is it so many countries have citizens protesting all the time, yet I bet this never happens in China. I'm just making some observations, granted I didn't choose the best words.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - yourbandsucks 7y ago
    I appreciate the engagement. I'm not Chinese and either way I wouldn't speak for 1.6B people. I'll just note that there have been way more revolutions in China than in America over any timeframe, and they were all terrible. Things are going great for average Chinese people right now, and they have living memory of revolution, bloodshed, starvation, etc. Why fuck with it? Lock in the economic gains, and slow-march towards democracy. Xi is trying to move things in the wrong direction on the freedom front, and that's bad. The solution here is alliance with Chinese intellectuals, not opposition to 'China' that forces them onto their people's side.
    - proc0 7y ago
      Sure, fair point on siding with the people. I'll just add there is an element of holding the people accountable for what their government is doing, which is also why Americans got some flak during the Iraq war. I'll try to read more on this though.
dang 7y ago
If you post like this again we will ban you. Nationalistic flamewar is not welcome here, let alone this kind of slur. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html