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I’m not a network expert, but doesn’t TLS just cover your connection with a specific website? Since your IPS is often also your DNS, can’t they still see which

I’m not a network expert, but doesn’t TLS just cover your connection with a specific website? Since your IPS is often also your DNS, can’t they still see which specific websites you’re trying to connect to? Wouldn’t TLS just obfuscate what you’re specifically sending to and receiving from that site? I’m under the impression that my ISP can (and probably does) see every website I visit, which is in the least browsing history. I also remember that Comcast did (and might still do) inject code onto websites to display a “pop-up” indicating that you’re reaching or have reached your datacap. It would even pop up on Steam because most of Steam is really just a webview. I’m not sure exactly how they did/do that. Again, I’m not a network or security expert, so I’m not really sure of how TLS protects your internet history, which I take to mean a list of websites you visit and when.

emiliobool 7y ago
I believe you are both saying the same thing, you called it websites/domains he called it hostnames.
derefr 7y ago
That’s what the parent said: they can still see “hostnames and IP addresses.” But, for most people, that means that the ISP will just see: • google.com • facebook.com • reddit.com • somebignewspaper.example.com Etc. And there’s really nothing much too valuable about that. They won’t even be able to figure out if you’re shopping for something (unlike every other nosy channel provider), because most shopping traffic today just looks like Google + Amazon.
- nvrspyx 7y ago
  I see. As someone who has practically zero knowledge of networking, I had misconstrued hostnames for something else, which I’m now too embarrassed to mention. Very educational response though. Thank you.
- apecat 7y ago
  Please don't underestimate the value of metadata. While it's true that the big platforms dominate web use today, don't forget that the concept of metadata includes when you actively surf on the information superhighway. That's valuable information for advertisers. So is every DNS lookup related to the API backends of specific apps you use. And every random website outside the massive platforms. These might reveal tons of information about you. Like: Are you doing research on politics (and which flavor)? Do you worry about health? When do you access online banking? Which banks? Any tax filing software? Invoicing apps? Do you use shitty payday loans? Are you looking for dates? Are you gay? Which games do you play? Which car dealerships do you consider? Do you gamble? And of course, any particularly.. specific porn sites? Do you access banking, travel/flight booking, investment, shitcoin trading, adult or gambling sites in a specific pattern that might indicate mania or other mental health issues? With metadata alone, your ISP has a thick dossier on your habits, with stuff therapists don't know about their clients.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
TallGuyShort 7y ago
You're correct - TLS / SSL operate above the IP layer, so they know which servers you're talking to, when and approximately how much, and if they can see your DNS requests it makes it that much easier to know which sites that maps to. TLS stops them from seeing the actual data you're sending them (like passwords), which pages you're viewing, and it also prevents them from manipulating the data (unless they've subverted the PKI, like if your company laptop has a certificate installed that trusts your company VPN, you company VPN can do a Man-in-the-middle attack to subvert TLS).
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  By looking at side-channel data it was possible to correlate the page being viewed on SSL, IIRC researchers could calculate the page viewed about 70% of the time. I misremembered, it was about 90% -- https://scirate.com/arxiv/1403.0297 https://scirate.com/arxiv/1403.0297.

emiliobool 7y ago

I believe you are both saying the same thing, you called it websites/domains he called it hostnames.

derefr 7y ago

That’s what the parent said: they can still see “hostnames and IP addresses.” But, for most people, that means that the ISP will just see: • google.com • facebook.com • reddit.com • somebignewspaper.example.com Etc. And there’s really nothing much too valuable about that. They won’t even be able to figure out if you’re shopping for something (unlike every other nosy channel provider), because most shopping traffic today just looks like Google + Amazon.

nvrspyx 7y ago
I see. As someone who has practically zero knowledge of networking, I had misconstrued hostnames for something else, which I’m now too embarrassed to mention. Very educational response though. Thank you.
apecat 7y ago
Please don't underestimate the value of metadata. While it's true that the big platforms dominate web use today, don't forget that the concept of metadata includes when you actively surf on the information superhighway. That's valuable information for advertisers. So is every DNS lookup related to the API backends of specific apps you use. And every random website outside the massive platforms. These might reveal tons of information about you. Like: Are you doing research on politics (and which flavor)? Do you worry about health? When do you access online banking? Which banks? Any tax filing software? Invoicing apps? Do you use shitty payday loans? Are you looking for dates? Are you gay? Which games do you play? Which car dealerships do you consider? Do you gamble? And of course, any particularly.. specific porn sites? Do you access banking, travel/flight booking, investment, shitcoin trading, adult or gambling sites in a specific pattern that might indicate mania or other mental health issues? With metadata alone, your ISP has a thick dossier on your habits, with stuff therapists don't know about their clients.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

TallGuyShort 7y ago

You're correct - TLS / SSL operate above the IP layer, so they know which servers you're talking to, when and approximately how much, and if they can see your DNS requests it makes it that much easier to know which sites that maps to. TLS stops them from seeing the actual data you're sending them (like passwords), which pages you're viewing, and it also prevents them from manipulating the data (unless they've subverted the PKI, like if your company laptop has a certificate installed that trusts your company VPN, you company VPN can do a Man-in-the-middle attack to subvert TLS).

pbhjpbhj 7y ago
By looking at side-channel data it was possible to correlate the page being viewed on SSL, IIRC researchers could calculate the page viewed about 70% of the time. I misremembered, it was about 90% -- https://scirate.com/arxiv/1403.0297 https://scirate.com/arxiv/1403.0297.