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The invented Chinese names of the 2019 Canadian federal election – ranked

213 points by firloop 7y ago

firloop 7y ago
Looks like the site fell over. Internet archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20191021142028/www.nikobell.ca/the-invented-chinese-names-of-the-2019-federal-election-ranked/ https://web.archive.org/web/20191021142028/www.nikobell.ca/t...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kilo_bravo_3 7y ago
This is awesome. My Chinese name is 司馬文 "Sima Wen", with the surname being that of several series of famous Chinese historians, emperors, and generals, and my given name meaning culture. My teachers were very proud of that one because it closely resembles my English name and they said it sounded dignified. I can only assume they knew what they were talking about.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  Do you use that name with actual Chinese people, or is it more of a during-Chinese-class thing? I would feel weird about giving myself a rare and ultra-high-prestige name. But, I have no idea how the Chinese would perceive it.
  - throwaway_bad 7y ago
    I would probably assume he's just really into Romance of the Three Kingdoms or other historical dramas where the 司馬 surname is common. Or that his real name is Zimmerman.
    - thaumasiotes 7y ago
      > Or that his real name is Zimmerman. I've read that a number of Chinese with the surname 欧阳 [Ouyang] logically chose the English surname O'Young, confusing a lot of people who were led by the name to expect someone more Irish.
    - kilo_bravo_3 7y ago
      I was a Chinese Mandarin linguist in the Army for five years, many, many years ago. My teachers at DLI were really into historical dramas. I'm more into shows with lasers and robots.
  - morningseagulls 7y ago
    >I would feel weird about giving myself a rare and ultra-high-prestige name. Er... 司馬 isn't that rare, and people would rather advise you to select a rare but prestigious family name, rather than a rare and unknown one. It's like given names in English: if you pick a rare and unknown name (or even a common one with an unusual spelling), people are just going to go "huh?"
- Camillo 7y ago
  Simon Wayne?
- thechao 7y ago
  During my first attempt at grad school, my fellow students (all mainland Chinese) informed me my name was "ugly" in Chinese. So, I chose 田十牛 "Tián Shí Niú", after the fact I'm a bit from the country, and my favorite character's name (Number 10 Ox). They thought this was hilariously rustic.
- em-bee 7y ago
  i very much like how "martin" is translated into chinese: 马丁 not only captures the english sounds somewhat reasonably, but it also surprisingly captures the meaning in an interesting way: martin is based on mars, the god of war, and is also a famous figure in christian history as a roman soldier on a horse. the chinese characters are: 马(ma): horse, and 丁(ding):soldier you can hardly get any closer with a resemblance of the meaning in both languages.
bovermyer 7y ago
Does Canada have a large Chinese immigrant population? I'm curious as to why these would be on campaign ads.
- fbelzile 7y ago
  Yes, particularly in BC where the author is from.
- ska 7y ago
  Yes, people of Chinese origin are the second largest single visible minority group in the country, at about 4.5% of population. South Asian origin is about 5.5%.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- cgh 7y ago
  Richmond, BC is North America's most Asian city. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-radio-and-tv-18149316 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-radio-and-tv-18149316
  - hangonhn 7y ago
    Cupertino, CA has that beat at 66% https://statisticalatlas.com/place/California/Cupertino/Race-and-Ethnicity https://statisticalatlas.com/place/California/Cupertino/Race...
    - bdamm 7y ago
      Richmond has entire malls where you will not find any English language. I do not believe that is the case in Cupertino. Also, Canada's approach to multiculturalism allows this to flourish, whereas America's "melting pot" almost makes minority heritage a quiet shame. Even though the US Census says Cupertino is "66% Asian" I just don't think it is at all the same as Richmond, which has large areas that really feel like you're in a Chinese city.
Jun8 7y ago
IDEA: A site that creates a good Chinese name either from your name or totally from scratch, with good visualization option to tweak 10-20 factors. Uses AI algorithms trained on nuances of names. If you pay extra, you can have the auto-generated name tweaked by an expert, someone like the author of this post. Sites like this exist (e.g. https://www.mandarintools.com/chinesename.html https://www.mandarintools.com/chinesename.html) but are primitive.
- goodcharacters 7y ago
  That's a good idea ;-P I've been working on it but it's only for our internal use at this time. Chinese names are also required in some counties in California. I shared the following in our blog: The California State Legislature passed a bill this year (and it was approved by the Governor on July 12) that requires phonetic transliterations of candidates’ alphabet-based names to appear on ballots and ballot materials in jurisdiction required to translate ballot materials into character-based languages. https://service.goodcharacters.com/daily/20190701-ab-57-candidates.html https://service.goodcharacters.com/daily/20190701-ab-57-cand...
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > requires phonetic transliterations of candidates’ alphabet-based names to appear on ballots and ballot materials in jurisdiction required to translate ballot materials into character-based languages In my experience, Chinese versions of foreign words, including foreign names, usually don't approach the sound of the original as closely as Chinese phonology allows. That is, they aren't really meant as "phonetic transliterations"; there are other options available purely within Chinese that would approximate the original sound more closely.[1] Instead, the goal seems to be that you're in the right ballpark on the sound, and then you tweak the name for other factors such as character semantics while staying somewhere in the ballpark. And of course, once a name is conventionalized, you'd want to use that rather than innovating a new version. [1] Of course it's possible in general that while my foreign ears think a different Chinese syllable would better match the foreign one, the Chinese disagree and really believe they are using the closest available match. There are plenty of ready examples, such as Coca-Cola, where this is obviously not the case.
cgh 7y ago
For those who were unaware, Canada is having its federal election today. Its no-fuss nature is an interesting contrast to the shenanigans of our southern neighbour.
mc32 7y ago
>”Chinese has no bite-sized phonetic components with which to build foreign sounds...” That’s not entirely true. There is bopomofodutunuh [1]. Maybe it’s not as well known as Kana. [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo
- jsharf 7y ago
  That's mostly used in Taiwan for typing, I don't think it's really common in China. I could be wrong though. Also, I think it would be weird to have a name made of those characters. They're strictly phonetic -- I've never seen a Chinese name made out of bopomofo letters.
  - yorwba 7y ago
    Bopomofo was phased out as the official transliteration system in the PRC in 1958 and replaced by Pinyin. Most Mainland Chinese probably won't be able to read Bopomofo. And if you're going to use an alphabetic writing system like Pinyin, you might as well use the original orthography and skip the need for transliteration altogether.
CharlesColeman 7y ago
> The prototypical Chinese name has three characters, a single surname followed by a two-character given name. A smaller number of Chinese people only have a single given name, and a very few have two surname characters. I'm not sure if this is correct. IIRC, in at least some areas/families, it's a tradition to alternate between giving a one or two character name from generation to generation. So if your parent has a two character given name, you'll have a one character name, and vice-versa. Another interesting characteristic of Chinese names is that given names are very diverse and varied, while family names come from a small set (something like a hundred or so). This is opposite from the West (or at least America) where given names are pretty restricted (e.g. lots of Johns and Emilys) but family names have a lot of variation (probably due to all the immigration).
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
  From the friendly article: "As in other languages, there are always exceptions." Wikipedia goes into extreme detail: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_name
- zht 7y ago
  I would not characterize the number of people who have single given names as "small". This also differs a lot by region.
- morningseagulls 7y ago
  >>> The prototypical Chinese name has three characters, a single surname followed by a two-character given name. A smaller number of Chinese people only have a single given name, and a very few have two surname characters. >I'm not sure if this is correct. It's not. The distribution of one- and two-character given names is pretty even in China. >Another interesting characteristic of Chinese names is that given names are very diverse and varied, while family names come from a small set (something like a hundred or so). This is opposite from the West (or at least America) where given names are pretty restricted (e.g. lots of Johns and Emilys) but family names have a lot of variation (probably due to all the immigration). You know, maybe we should change how we think about the ordering. Instead of family-given or given-family, it's clearly restricted-arbitrary.
uranusjr 7y ago
As a native Chinese speaker, I find several points in the article a bit awkward to comprehend, especially when you flip the table around. It might be likely less than sophisticated for Françoise Duchamps to call herself Fran Swazzy in English (I don’t think so), but I struggle to think she’d have trouble using simply “Frances” without a last name if she goes to a hypothetical English-speaking place where residents don’t understand much French. I also don’t understand the author’s lack of love to just using the straight phonetic translation (either first-last or only first/last name).[1] Sure it’s nice to have a Chinese name that sounds familiar, but would you expect your (say) Indian immigrant colleague to adapt an English-sounding name when moving to Canada? Yeah, we don’t mind you using your native name either. Oh and the semantics don’t matter either. Lietarally zero native Chinese speaker would read 希拉里 and think “huh, hope pull inside, wierd name”, we recognise immediately it’s foreign, just like you know Kazuhiko and Jinping don’t have Bible reference. Heck, we don’t even think too much about meanings of our own names that often. When’s the last time you see a guy named Chris and think how he bears Christ? Anyway. I don’t dislike the article, especially the latter part where the author digs into actual examples. It is always a fun exercise to read Chinese names, I do that a lot as well. But it’s just that, fun exercise. That’s not how we read names in daily life, and as long as you’re happy with your Chinese-character-spelled names (be it Chinese-style or otherwise), we are happy to use it. Over-interpreting people’s names (especially non-native speakers’), now that’s unsophisticated. --- [1]: I am Taiwanese, so maybe there’s some cultral different to communities with China origin.
- wodenokoto 7y ago
  The author is not Chinese. It is common for people who study a foreign language to get a passion for things that to them seems more authentic. For example, many learners of Japanese consider English loan words inferior to Sino Japanese words, even though in modern Japanese, they are equally Japanese.
  - dnautics 7y ago
    I was always amused that "pine" street in San Francisco is transliterated to "plank" in chinese. Broadway, incidentally, is "avenue of 100 old people".
wodenokoto 7y ago
> I’ve collected names from the sublime—Vancouver city council candidate Jean Swanson’s (金玉鹅) beautifully phonetic and semantic rendering of her name— Was that joke? At least in Japanese, the two first are a very common colloquial for testicles.
- yorwba 7y ago
  In Chinese, 玉 refers to a jade gem. I think the Japanese meaning encompasses any kind of roundish object, so the semantic distance to testicles is smaller. For a Chinese speaker, using 金玉 (gold+jade/precious) to describe testicles probably wouldn't be too strange, but the association is not quite as obvious as in Japanese.
  - morningseagulls 7y ago
    >I think the Japanese meaning encompasses any kind of roundish object As in Chinese, 金玉 also means "gold and jewels" in Japanese, i.e. treasure, so the semantic distance to testicles is not any smaller. Presumably someone might have heard of "family jewels". >For a Chinese speaker, using 金玉 (gold+jade/precious) to describe testicles probably wouldn't be too strange 金玉 is used in the idiom 金玉满堂, which can either mean full of riches or knowledge,[1][2] so it would be rather strange. [0] https://jisho.org/search/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89 https://jisho.org/search/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89 [1] "形容财富极多，也形容学识丰富。" (Describes someone who's extremely wealthy, but can also describe someone who's full of knowledge.) https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89%E6%BB%A1%E5%A0%82/324 https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89%E6%BB%A1%E5%... [2] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89%E6%BB%BF%E5%A0%82#Chinese https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89%E6%BB%BF%E...
- harisenbon 7y ago
  I was curious, and it looks like it only has good connotations in Chinese: https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89/4846 https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89/4846 Kintama was the first thing I thought of when looking at it though. "Goose balls"?
- azurezyq 7y ago
dwohnitmok 7y ago
If we expand the ranking to native historical names, I've always found the presence of somewhat derogatory or just absurd names among ancient Chinese figures fascinating and have a hard time fathoming why a parent would gives these to a child. Note the following are not nicknames. These are given names. Some I can chalk up to probably being purely phonetic spellings (不寿 a.k.a. Not-Long-Lived a king of Yue 越, who doesn't seem to have lived a particularly short life, but his date of birth is unknown). Others to their names later taking on negative connotations because of their own actions (嫪毐 Lao Ai where 毐 later became used to describe immoral people, presumably because he pretended to be a eunuch, slept with the mother of Qin Shihuangdi, the first emperor of China, and then led a failed revolution against the emperor's father, the king of Qin. His whole story is insane. He's a performer who does tricks with his large penis who got used in a game of political intrigue by Lu Buwei to protect Lu Buwei from the king of Qin.). There still others that maybe had their names invented or twisted to suit stories. See for example 牛缺(Lacking Niu), a high-ranking scholar who appears in 吕氏春秋 (Master Lu's Spring and Autumn Annals) who goes on a trip through the desert, has everything stolen from him, and then is later killed by his robbers for good measure. And yet others may be a result of trying to ward off evil or encourage modesty by intentionally giving children modest or unappealing names. However, there's some, especially from the Warring States and earlier, that just seem to be inexplicably absurd names, with a large focus on "not." 晋黑臀 (Black-Butt Jin), also known by his title Duke Cheng of Jin. Perhaps he just had very literal parents. 叔孙不敢 (Doesn't-Dare/Not-Brave Shusun), a Lu court official. Sure his father tried and failed to help Duke Zhao of Lu, but the historical account makes it sound like that probably happened after Doesn't-Dare's birth. 韩不信/韩不佞 (Not-Credible Han/Unworthy Han). Granted the latter could also mean not given to sophistry, but still why would you take that chance with a child (both meanings are attested to in fairly ancient sources)? 秦非 (Not Qin, note order is flipped compared to English names so it's literally Qin Not). A disciple of Confucius. 皇非我 (Not-Me Huang). An official of the kingdom of Song. Again maybe a result of traditions trying to protect children from evil spirits, but I still find it rather amusing. I've never really heard a good explanation for these, other than given names didn't really matter back then, rather it was adult honorary names (e.g. Zi or 字) that mattered more, which sure I guess I can believe. On the other hand, if that was the case I'd expect a cornucopia of awful names rather than the comparatively few, but still abnormally many, that I observe now.
binarysolo 7y ago
Native Mandarin speaker here - please take this article with a grain of salt as it reeks of whitesplaining. I know the writer spent a bunch of time in China but a bunch of the "nuance" of how the names are interpreted seem either excessive or overinterpretive. Just-another-opinion: As a Chinese person I actually prefer direct translations such as 川普 (Trump) as the name is usually pretty distinct, and people who share the same surname can have different characters to represent them. Off-handedly, the characters used to translate a person's name often times can convey additional info - I can't think of too many specifics by country, but it's very easy to tell who's from Japan because they just take the kanji and use the Chinese translation (which butchers the pronunciation), or Korean because certain characters are almost always used for translating certain surnames (such as 金 -> Kim).
- morningseagulls 7y ago
  >please take this article with a grain of salt as it reeks of whitesplaining. Agreed. Also, most Chinese names are "invented" anyway, so why is that in the headline?
gfaure 7y ago
It's interesting that Jagmeet Singh's "nom de Chine" in Cantonese is 駔勉誠 (roughly, "dzong min sing"), which sounds a lot more like his real name than the Mandarin ("zang mian cheng") does.
- mleonhard 7y ago
  Good point. Many folks will be reading the Chinese names in Cantonese.
rixtox 7y ago
After McDonald's (China) was acquired, McDonald's (Global) banned them from using McDonald's and its phonetic name 麥當勞 in China. It then changed its name to 金拱門, which literally means Golden Arches. Chinese people found it so hilarious that it went so viral. News got over nine billion views. It was such a success for marketing, but it doesn't hold the same profile as before.
- Erwin 7y ago
  They sure seem different than the ordinary McD in other countries. The McD online ordering website in China is https://www.4008-517-517.cn https://www.4008-517-517.cn -- apparently "517" sounds like "I want to eat". They sell a "Land, Air, Sea Warfare" combo menu which sounds ominous, but apparently it's commonly known "secret menu" item on ordinary McDonalds combining a Big Mac, McChicken and the McFish.
  - em-bee 7y ago
    5: wu, 1:yi, 7:qi I:我:wo, want:要:yao, eat:吃:chi
  - magic_beans 7y ago
    So odd to see numerical URLs. There was an article here on HN about that a month or so ago.
ridaj 7y ago
I definitely need a better Chinese name. How can I get one?
- tasogare 7y ago
  Consult Chinese speaking people? Try something then ask advices. Iterate quickly a few times and you should be set.

213 points by firloop 7y ago

Looks like the site fell over. Internet archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20191021142028/www.nikobell.ca/the-invented-chinese-names-of-the-2019-federal-election-ranked/ https://web.archive.org/web/20191021142028/www.nikobell.ca/t...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

kilo_bravo_3 7y ago

This is awesome. My Chinese name is 司馬文 "Sima Wen", with the surname being that of several series of famous Chinese historians, emperors, and generals, and my given name meaning culture. My teachers were very proud of that one because it closely resembles my English name and they said it sounded dignified. I can only assume they knew what they were talking about.

thaumasiotes 7y ago
Do you use that name with actual Chinese people, or is it more of a during-Chinese-class thing? I would feel weird about giving myself a rare and ultra-high-prestige name. But, I have no idea how the Chinese would perceive it.
- throwaway_bad 7y ago
  I would probably assume he's just really into Romance of the Three Kingdoms or other historical dramas where the 司馬 surname is common. Or that his real name is Zimmerman.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > Or that his real name is Zimmerman. I've read that a number of Chinese with the surname 欧阳 [Ouyang] logically chose the English surname O'Young, confusing a lot of people who were led by the name to expect someone more Irish.
  - kilo_bravo_3 7y ago
    I was a Chinese Mandarin linguist in the Army for five years, many, many years ago. My teachers at DLI were really into historical dramas. I'm more into shows with lasers and robots.
- morningseagulls 7y ago
  >I would feel weird about giving myself a rare and ultra-high-prestige name. Er... 司馬 isn't that rare, and people would rather advise you to select a rare but prestigious family name, rather than a rare and unknown one. It's like given names in English: if you pick a rare and unknown name (or even a common one with an unusual spelling), people are just going to go "huh?"
Camillo 7y ago
Simon Wayne?
thechao 7y ago
During my first attempt at grad school, my fellow students (all mainland Chinese) informed me my name was "ugly" in Chinese. So, I chose 田十牛 "Tián Shí Niú", after the fact I'm a bit from the country, and my favorite character's name (Number 10 Ox). They thought this was hilariously rustic.
em-bee 7y ago
i very much like how "martin" is translated into chinese: 马丁 not only captures the english sounds somewhat reasonably, but it also surprisingly captures the meaning in an interesting way: martin is based on mars, the god of war, and is also a famous figure in christian history as a roman soldier on a horse. the chinese characters are: 马(ma): horse, and 丁(ding):soldier you can hardly get any closer with a resemblance of the meaning in both languages.

bovermyer 7y ago

Does Canada have a large Chinese immigrant population? I'm curious as to why these would be on campaign ads.

fbelzile 7y ago
Yes, particularly in BC where the author is from.
ska 7y ago
Yes, people of Chinese origin are the second largest single visible minority group in the country, at about 4.5% of population. South Asian origin is about 5.5%.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
cgh 7y ago
Richmond, BC is North America's most Asian city. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-radio-and-tv-18149316 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-radio-and-tv-18149316
- hangonhn 7y ago
  Cupertino, CA has that beat at 66% https://statisticalatlas.com/place/California/Cupertino/Race-and-Ethnicity https://statisticalatlas.com/place/California/Cupertino/Race...
  - bdamm 7y ago
    Richmond has entire malls where you will not find any English language. I do not believe that is the case in Cupertino. Also, Canada's approach to multiculturalism allows this to flourish, whereas America's "melting pot" almost makes minority heritage a quiet shame. Even though the US Census says Cupertino is "66% Asian" I just don't think it is at all the same as Richmond, which has large areas that really feel like you're in a Chinese city.

Jun8 7y ago

IDEA: A site that creates a good Chinese name either from your name or totally from scratch, with good visualization option to tweak 10-20 factors. Uses AI algorithms trained on nuances of names. If you pay extra, you can have the auto-generated name tweaked by an expert, someone like the author of this post. Sites like this exist (e.g. https://www.mandarintools.com/chinesename.html https://www.mandarintools.com/chinesename.html) but are primitive.

goodcharacters 7y ago
That's a good idea ;-P I've been working on it but it's only for our internal use at this time. Chinese names are also required in some counties in California. I shared the following in our blog: The California State Legislature passed a bill this year (and it was approved by the Governor on July 12) that requires phonetic transliterations of candidates’ alphabet-based names to appear on ballots and ballot materials in jurisdiction required to translate ballot materials into character-based languages. https://service.goodcharacters.com/daily/20190701-ab-57-candidates.html https://service.goodcharacters.com/daily/20190701-ab-57-cand...
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > requires phonetic transliterations of candidates’ alphabet-based names to appear on ballots and ballot materials in jurisdiction required to translate ballot materials into character-based languages In my experience, Chinese versions of foreign words, including foreign names, usually don't approach the sound of the original as closely as Chinese phonology allows. That is, they aren't really meant as "phonetic transliterations"; there are other options available purely within Chinese that would approximate the original sound more closely.[1] Instead, the goal seems to be that you're in the right ballpark on the sound, and then you tweak the name for other factors such as character semantics while staying somewhere in the ballpark. And of course, once a name is conventionalized, you'd want to use that rather than innovating a new version. [1] Of course it's possible in general that while my foreign ears think a different Chinese syllable would better match the foreign one, the Chinese disagree and really believe they are using the closest available match. There are plenty of ready examples, such as Coca-Cola, where this is obviously not the case.

cgh 7y ago

For those who were unaware, Canada is having its federal election today. Its no-fuss nature is an interesting contrast to the shenanigans of our southern neighbour.

mc32 7y ago

>”Chinese has no bite-sized phonetic components with which to build foreign sounds...” That’s not entirely true. There is bopomofodutunuh [1]. Maybe it’s not as well known as Kana. [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo

jsharf 7y ago
That's mostly used in Taiwan for typing, I don't think it's really common in China. I could be wrong though. Also, I think it would be weird to have a name made of those characters. They're strictly phonetic -- I've never seen a Chinese name made out of bopomofo letters.
- yorwba 7y ago
  Bopomofo was phased out as the official transliteration system in the PRC in 1958 and replaced by Pinyin. Most Mainland Chinese probably won't be able to read Bopomofo. And if you're going to use an alphabetic writing system like Pinyin, you might as well use the original orthography and skip the need for transliteration altogether.

CharlesColeman 7y ago

> The prototypical Chinese name has three characters, a single surname followed by a two-character given name. A smaller number of Chinese people only have a single given name, and a very few have two surname characters. I'm not sure if this is correct. IIRC, in at least some areas/families, it's a tradition to alternate between giving a one or two character name from generation to generation. So if your parent has a two character given name, you'll have a one character name, and vice-versa. Another interesting characteristic of Chinese names is that given names are very diverse and varied, while family names come from a small set (something like a hundred or so). This is opposite from the West (or at least America) where given names are pretty restricted (e.g. lots of Johns and Emilys) but family names have a lot of variation (probably due to all the immigration).

9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
From the friendly article: "As in other languages, there are always exceptions." Wikipedia goes into extreme detail: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_name
zht 7y ago
I would not characterize the number of people who have single given names as "small". This also differs a lot by region.
morningseagulls 7y ago
>>> The prototypical Chinese name has three characters, a single surname followed by a two-character given name. A smaller number of Chinese people only have a single given name, and a very few have two surname characters. >I'm not sure if this is correct. It's not. The distribution of one- and two-character given names is pretty even in China. >Another interesting characteristic of Chinese names is that given names are very diverse and varied, while family names come from a small set (something like a hundred or so). This is opposite from the West (or at least America) where given names are pretty restricted (e.g. lots of Johns and Emilys) but family names have a lot of variation (probably due to all the immigration). You know, maybe we should change how we think about the ordering. Instead of family-given or given-family, it's clearly restricted-arbitrary.

uranusjr 7y ago

As a native Chinese speaker, I find several points in the article a bit awkward to comprehend, especially when you flip the table around. It might be likely less than sophisticated for Françoise Duchamps to call herself Fran Swazzy in English (I don’t think so), but I struggle to think she’d have trouble using simply “Frances” without a last name if she goes to a hypothetical English-speaking place where residents don’t understand much French. I also don’t understand the author’s lack of love to just using the straight phonetic translation (either first-last or only first/last name).[1] Sure it’s nice to have a Chinese name that sounds familiar, but would you expect your (say) Indian immigrant colleague to adapt an English-sounding name when moving to Canada? Yeah, we don’t mind you using your native name either. Oh and the semantics don’t matter either. Lietarally zero native Chinese speaker would read 希拉里 and think “huh, hope pull inside, wierd name”, we recognise immediately it’s foreign, just like you know Kazuhiko and Jinping don’t have Bible reference. Heck, we don’t even think too much about meanings of our own names that often. When’s the last time you see a guy named Chris and think how he bears Christ? Anyway. I don’t dislike the article, especially the latter part where the author digs into actual examples. It is always a fun exercise to read Chinese names, I do that a lot as well. But it’s just that, fun exercise. That’s not how we read names in daily life, and as long as you’re happy with your Chinese-character-spelled names (be it Chinese-style or otherwise), we are happy to use it. Over-interpreting people’s names (especially non-native speakers’), now that’s unsophisticated. --- [1]: I am Taiwanese, so maybe there’s some cultral different to communities with China origin.

wodenokoto 7y ago
The author is not Chinese. It is common for people who study a foreign language to get a passion for things that to them seems more authentic. For example, many learners of Japanese consider English loan words inferior to Sino Japanese words, even though in modern Japanese, they are equally Japanese.
- dnautics 7y ago
  I was always amused that "pine" street in San Francisco is transliterated to "plank" in chinese. Broadway, incidentally, is "avenue of 100 old people".

wodenokoto 7y ago

> I’ve collected names from the sublime—Vancouver city council candidate Jean Swanson’s (金玉鹅) beautifully phonetic and semantic rendering of her name— Was that joke? At least in Japanese, the two first are a very common colloquial for testicles.

yorwba 7y ago
In Chinese, 玉 refers to a jade gem. I think the Japanese meaning encompasses any kind of roundish object, so the semantic distance to testicles is smaller. For a Chinese speaker, using 金玉 (gold+jade/precious) to describe testicles probably wouldn't be too strange, but the association is not quite as obvious as in Japanese.
- morningseagulls 7y ago
  >I think the Japanese meaning encompasses any kind of roundish object As in Chinese, 金玉 also means "gold and jewels" in Japanese, i.e. treasure, so the semantic distance to testicles is not any smaller. Presumably someone might have heard of "family jewels". >For a Chinese speaker, using 金玉 (gold+jade/precious) to describe testicles probably wouldn't be too strange 金玉 is used in the idiom 金玉满堂, which can either mean full of riches or knowledge,[1][2] so it would be rather strange. [0] https://jisho.org/search/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89 https://jisho.org/search/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89 [1] "形容财富极多，也形容学识丰富。" (Describes someone who's extremely wealthy, but can also describe someone who's full of knowledge.) https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89%E6%BB%A1%E5%A0%82/324 https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89%E6%BB%A1%E5%... [2] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89%E6%BB%BF%E5%A0%82#Chinese https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89%E6%BB%BF%E...
harisenbon 7y ago
I was curious, and it looks like it only has good connotations in Chinese: https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89/4846 https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89/4846 Kintama was the first thing I thought of when looking at it though. "Goose balls"?
azurezyq 7y ago

dwohnitmok 7y ago

If we expand the ranking to native historical names, I've always found the presence of somewhat derogatory or just absurd names among ancient Chinese figures fascinating and have a hard time fathoming why a parent would gives these to a child. Note the following are not nicknames. These are given names. Some I can chalk up to probably being purely phonetic spellings (不寿 a.k.a. Not-Long-Lived a king of Yue 越, who doesn't seem to have lived a particularly short life, but his date of birth is unknown). Others to their names later taking on negative connotations because of their own actions (嫪毐 Lao Ai where 毐 later became used to describe immoral people, presumably because he pretended to be a eunuch, slept with the mother of Qin Shihuangdi, the first emperor of China, and then led a failed revolution against the emperor's father, the king of Qin. His whole story is insane. He's a performer who does tricks with his large penis who got used in a game of political intrigue by Lu Buwei to protect Lu Buwei from the king of Qin.). There still others that maybe had their names invented or twisted to suit stories. See for example 牛缺(Lacking Niu), a high-ranking scholar who appears in 吕氏春秋 (Master Lu's Spring and Autumn Annals) who goes on a trip through the desert, has everything stolen from him, and then is later killed by his robbers for good measure. And yet others may be a result of trying to ward off evil or encourage modesty by intentionally giving children modest or unappealing names. However, there's some, especially from the Warring States and earlier, that just seem to be inexplicably absurd names, with a large focus on "not." 晋黑臀 (Black-Butt Jin), also known by his title Duke Cheng of Jin. Perhaps he just had very literal parents. 叔孙不敢 (Doesn't-Dare/Not-Brave Shusun), a Lu court official. Sure his father tried and failed to help Duke Zhao of Lu, but the historical account makes it sound like that probably happened after Doesn't-Dare's birth. 韩不信/韩不佞 (Not-Credible Han/Unworthy Han). Granted the latter could also mean not given to sophistry, but still why would you take that chance with a child (both meanings are attested to in fairly ancient sources)? 秦非 (Not Qin, note order is flipped compared to English names so it's literally Qin Not). A disciple of Confucius. 皇非我 (Not-Me Huang). An official of the kingdom of Song. Again maybe a result of traditions trying to protect children from evil spirits, but I still find it rather amusing. I've never really heard a good explanation for these, other than given names didn't really matter back then, rather it was adult honorary names (e.g. Zi or 字) that mattered more, which sure I guess I can believe. On the other hand, if that was the case I'd expect a cornucopia of awful names rather than the comparatively few, but still abnormally many, that I observe now.

binarysolo 7y ago

Native Mandarin speaker here - please take this article with a grain of salt as it reeks of whitesplaining. I know the writer spent a bunch of time in China but a bunch of the "nuance" of how the names are interpreted seem either excessive or overinterpretive. Just-another-opinion: As a Chinese person I actually prefer direct translations such as 川普 (Trump) as the name is usually pretty distinct, and people who share the same surname can have different characters to represent them. Off-handedly, the characters used to translate a person's name often times can convey additional info - I can't think of too many specifics by country, but it's very easy to tell who's from Japan because they just take the kanji and use the Chinese translation (which butchers the pronunciation), or Korean because certain characters are almost always used for translating certain surnames (such as 金 -> Kim).

morningseagulls 7y ago
>please take this article with a grain of salt as it reeks of whitesplaining. Agreed. Also, most Chinese names are "invented" anyway, so why is that in the headline?

gfaure 7y ago

It's interesting that Jagmeet Singh's "nom de Chine" in Cantonese is 駔勉誠 (roughly, "dzong min sing"), which sounds a lot more like his real name than the Mandarin ("zang mian cheng") does.

mleonhard 7y ago
Good point. Many folks will be reading the Chinese names in Cantonese.

rixtox 7y ago

After McDonald's (China) was acquired, McDonald's (Global) banned them from using McDonald's and its phonetic name 麥當勞 in China. It then changed its name to 金拱門, which literally means Golden Arches. Chinese people found it so hilarious that it went so viral. News got over nine billion views. It was such a success for marketing, but it doesn't hold the same profile as before.

Erwin 7y ago
They sure seem different than the ordinary McD in other countries. The McD online ordering website in China is https://www.4008-517-517.cn https://www.4008-517-517.cn -- apparently "517" sounds like "I want to eat". They sell a "Land, Air, Sea Warfare" combo menu which sounds ominous, but apparently it's commonly known "secret menu" item on ordinary McDonalds combining a Big Mac, McChicken and the McFish.
- em-bee 7y ago
  5: wu, 1:yi, 7:qi I:我:wo, want:要:yao, eat:吃:chi
- magic_beans 7y ago
  So odd to see numerical URLs. There was an article here on HN about that a month or so ago.

ridaj 7y ago

I definitely need a better Chinese name. How can I get one?

tasogare 7y ago
Consult Chinese speaking people? Try something then ask advices. Iterate quickly a few times and you should be set.