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Recently there was a conversation on Slack at work about gender pronouns. Several people asked that everyone use "hey ya'll", "hey folks", "hey everyone", etc i

Recently there was a conversation on Slack at work about gender pronouns. Several people asked that everyone use "hey ya'll", "hey folks", "hey everyone", etc instead of "hey guys" (when addressing an entire not-all-male channel, for example). Two or three people fought this giving various arguments about why this was unnecessary, calling it word-policing, value-signaling, etc. Throughout, I made an attempt always to respond in a civil manner, to try to explain reasoning behind counter-points, provide examples, and make sure all voices were heard. I basically took it upon myself to be a mediator for 30 people. It finally ended after an hour, and afterward I realized I felt totally emotionally drained. I had spent the entire time reacting emotionally (internally), and then reacting mentally (externally). All that emotion, even if it was "inside", had been chewing away at me as a form of stress. I had to take an hour break from work to calm down. It did not feel good. "Emotional labor" might not have been the right phrase, but it sure felt like my emotions had just unloaded a 25-foot box truck.

1123581321 7y ago
That’s a good example of the problem. Your reacting emotionally internally didn’t help you do a better job, and may have been a liability, so a less emotional person may have been more qualified to mediate. Also, you took on a job no one asked you to do, and then complained about the cost using the emotional labor term as an acceptable ploy for sympathy. One of the biggest (and unintended) benefits of the emotional labor movement is detecting either martyr-like or unhelpful behavior at home and the workplace and coaching the person towards stopping it.
- peterwwillis 7y ago
  That's a strange response. I never complained, and I certainly never looked for sympathy. Also, is the martyr comment directed toward me? My story is more one of explaining how what I experienced could be invisible, as nobody came to me and said, wow, you must have gone through a lot. But people do go through a lot, and it's often invisible. In my case I "volunteered" for it, but others may be expected to take it on, which I imagine is more stressful.
  - 1123581321 7y ago
    Yes, it was directed at you (and others who act similarly.) I also am glad you shared your experience and liked your comment.
- ghgfhgfhn 7y ago
  This is peak hacker news. Maybe one day we will wake up and not be able to tell the difference between the machines and the programmers.
  - 1123581321 7y ago
    Ultimately, it’s a problem wide liberal arts literacy will solve. In the interim, it’s okay to turn bad quantification against itself.
- sfink 7y ago
  On the other hand, many situations like this require someone who isn't emotionally insensitive. The hypothetical person who would be less reactive may very well not notice that there was trouble looming in the first place, and so would have no reason to moderate. (And if nobody steps up, it's very very common for things to descend into flamewars or at least very subjective argumentation.)
tartoran 7y ago
Hey guys always made my brain think too much about inplications when i said it to a mix gendered group. Granted, English is my second language and inadvertently imitated others. When in Rome do as romans do. I took it as is, when i saw women adressing a group of women with hey guys. I thought that folks is a coloquial term. I wish there was a proper guidebook to all these phrases, how they came in use and what is expected. The small talk is like a dynamited field. There should be some guidelines
- Fellshard 7y ago
  Especially in English nowadays: Some people intentionally attempt to introduce more meaning into a phrase than is actually meant in general usage of the phrase, just so that they can be disruptive in this way. Others aren't attempting to be disruptive, but are misguidedly raising alarms thinking they are being helpful towards others, when in fact no-one is actually offended in the first place. All this to say: you shouldn't have to worry about sensitivity for most of those kinds of phrases, except where someone is trying to make you say what you didn't want to say. Call it out when it happens and move on; don't apologize, and don't allow people to read malice into your intentions that you never had.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - peterwwillis 7y ago
    This is just really bad career advice, but also you do see how your advice is logically problematic, right? In this model, nobody can ever have a valid complaint, if you never intend malice or offend an existing party. Example: If there are no black people in your office, and you use the N word a million times, and I complain, am I wrong to complain because there were no black people around to get offended or because you didn't intend malice? What's the point of caring whether someone uses a racial slur? Is it just because "that's what we're supposed to do" ? Or is there a deeper problem that we're trying to address?
    - 7y ago
Mountain_Skies 7y ago
Sounds like you volunteered for emotional labor you weren't tasked to do. How is this any different than the squeegee men who run up to wash your windshield when you're stopped at a red light? This seems to be a common theme in emotional labor discussions with the laborer taking on labor they weren't asked to take on.
- AgentME 7y ago
  >Sounds like you volunteered for emotional labor you weren't tasked to do. And he possibly prevented a flamewar and a lot of company drama. Maybe it wouldn't have developed into a flamewar, but without him, it's more likely everyone's temperaments would have been worse off and they'd be more likely to snap over something else. Imagine if he posted that he saw a very expensive piece of work equipment about to fall over, and spent an hour holding it up and managing to prevent it from breaking and negatively impacting everyone's jobs. It's more than fair for him to mention to others the work he did that possibly no one had noticed. If people respond to him saying that no one asked him to help like that, then that discourages people from taking initiative like that. A workplace needs people who take initiative. Things end up worse if people avoid fixing preventable problems because they think it's not their place. It's important not to discourage people from taking the initiative. I'll admit it's good to try to set the boundaries so people don't take the initiative too often on things that don't matter, but I think this is a thing that matters though. I've had coworkers that go above and beyond to make the workplace a pleasant place, and I really value it. Having that easily beats any other office perks and helps make everyone so much more productive. Shifting the topic a little: people on forums rarely ever ask for moderators, but people repeatedly choose well-moderated forums over ones that aren't. If a moderator complains about how much work it takes, then it's short-sighted to tell them that no one asked for it. Whether people realize it or not, people implicitly ask for it by choosing well-moderated places over others.
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  It sounds to me like the poster did the emotionally intelligent thing of reading a room and realizing a flame war was about to break out, and thus put in the labor to prevent it- which is a really normal thing for humans to do in social dynamics. It's literally a leadership quality. Later, this poster comments that it was emotionally exhausting- not a complaint, since I don't see them blaming anyone for their exhaustion besides themselves.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
tomp 7y ago
Surely you mean "emotional hobby" instead of "emotional labour"? After all, nobody paid you, nobody asked you to work, and I'm sure many didn't really appreciate your "work" and maybe even thought energy (both your own, and of all other 30 people) could more productively be spent doing other things. That's the whole problem with this idea. Proclamations of emotional "work" are actually just passive-aggressive pleas for others to affirm one's values. Well, people value different things, we might just need to accept that.
- tenaciousDaniel 7y ago
  And when this idea is discussed, it's talked about like it's some sort of societal issue. Ok so it's an issue...what's the solution? What should have happened in the above scenario that didn't? I really don't understand it. You dealt with something that weighed on you. Okay? Life can be like that sometimes. What an interesting revelation [rolls eyes].
  - peterwwillis 7y ago
    You know how Japanese train conductors have that point-and-call system? Well what these discussions are about are like point-and-call. They're not pointing at the people on the track (society). They're pointing in directions, and at the train, and calling out what is happening. They're pointing out these things going on around them so that everyone is aware of them, so that people will think, act, and react. Hopefully, the end result is better overall outcomes. I think we still have a long way to go in figuring out how to have these discussions in a way that's more productive, but at least they're happening.
  - sfink 7y ago
    ...it was a good example of the exact topic of the article? One that illustrated it in a way that was likely to be familiar to people here. Especially since it involved a common work situation rather than home life. If that's not worthy of posting in a comment thread, what is? Where is the implication that you have to pose - and maybe even solve! - some problem in order for your comment to be worth posting? Perhaps you are holding onto the definition the article is claiming is incorrect? Because that definition is associated with systemic issues. And your followup comment only makes sense to me in that light.
perl4ever 7y ago
It's so nice working in a (nearly) all female environment, where a person (woman) can refer to other people (women) as "you guys" and nobody bats an eye let alone starts long rancorous debates.
XorNot 7y ago
The downvoting on this anecdote is staggering.
sfink 7y ago
Great example of the original definition from TFA, thanks. I've found that people can usually relate to this sort of difficulty. If I said, "Phew! I just spent 3 hours keeping the coding style thread from getting out of hand." I think most people would understand. Many of us have been there.

1123581321 7y ago

That’s a good example of the problem. Your reacting emotionally internally didn’t help you do a better job, and may have been a liability, so a less emotional person may have been more qualified to mediate. Also, you took on a job no one asked you to do, and then complained about the cost using the emotional labor term as an acceptable ploy for sympathy. One of the biggest (and unintended) benefits of the emotional labor movement is detecting either martyr-like or unhelpful behavior at home and the workplace and coaching the person towards stopping it.

peterwwillis 7y ago
That's a strange response. I never complained, and I certainly never looked for sympathy. Also, is the martyr comment directed toward me? My story is more one of explaining how what I experienced could be invisible, as nobody came to me and said, wow, you must have gone through a lot. But people do go through a lot, and it's often invisible. In my case I "volunteered" for it, but others may be expected to take it on, which I imagine is more stressful.
- 1123581321 7y ago
  Yes, it was directed at you (and others who act similarly.) I also am glad you shared your experience and liked your comment.
ghgfhgfhn 7y ago
This is peak hacker news. Maybe one day we will wake up and not be able to tell the difference between the machines and the programmers.
- 1123581321 7y ago
  Ultimately, it’s a problem wide liberal arts literacy will solve. In the interim, it’s okay to turn bad quantification against itself.
sfink 7y ago
On the other hand, many situations like this require someone who isn't emotionally insensitive. The hypothetical person who would be less reactive may very well not notice that there was trouble looming in the first place, and so would have no reason to moderate. (And if nobody steps up, it's very very common for things to descend into flamewars or at least very subjective argumentation.)

tartoran 7y ago

Hey guys always made my brain think too much about inplications when i said it to a mix gendered group. Granted, English is my second language and inadvertently imitated others. When in Rome do as romans do. I took it as is, when i saw women adressing a group of women with hey guys. I thought that folks is a coloquial term. I wish there was a proper guidebook to all these phrases, how they came in use and what is expected. The small talk is like a dynamited field. There should be some guidelines

Fellshard 7y ago
Especially in English nowadays: Some people intentionally attempt to introduce more meaning into a phrase than is actually meant in general usage of the phrase, just so that they can be disruptive in this way. Others aren't attempting to be disruptive, but are misguidedly raising alarms thinking they are being helpful towards others, when in fact no-one is actually offended in the first place. All this to say: you shouldn't have to worry about sensitivity for most of those kinds of phrases, except where someone is trying to make you say what you didn't want to say. Call it out when it happens and move on; don't apologize, and don't allow people to read malice into your intentions that you never had.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- peterwwillis 7y ago
  This is just really bad career advice, but also you do see how your advice is logically problematic, right? In this model, nobody can ever have a valid complaint, if you never intend malice or offend an existing party. Example: If there are no black people in your office, and you use the N word a million times, and I complain, am I wrong to complain because there were no black people around to get offended or because you didn't intend malice? What's the point of caring whether someone uses a racial slur? Is it just because "that's what we're supposed to do" ? Or is there a deeper problem that we're trying to address?
  - 7y ago

Mountain_Skies 7y ago

Sounds like you volunteered for emotional labor you weren't tasked to do. How is this any different than the squeegee men who run up to wash your windshield when you're stopped at a red light? This seems to be a common theme in emotional labor discussions with the laborer taking on labor they weren't asked to take on.

AgentME 7y ago
>Sounds like you volunteered for emotional labor you weren't tasked to do. And he possibly prevented a flamewar and a lot of company drama. Maybe it wouldn't have developed into a flamewar, but without him, it's more likely everyone's temperaments would have been worse off and they'd be more likely to snap over something else. Imagine if he posted that he saw a very expensive piece of work equipment about to fall over, and spent an hour holding it up and managing to prevent it from breaking and negatively impacting everyone's jobs. It's more than fair for him to mention to others the work he did that possibly no one had noticed. If people respond to him saying that no one asked him to help like that, then that discourages people from taking initiative like that. A workplace needs people who take initiative. Things end up worse if people avoid fixing preventable problems because they think it's not their place. It's important not to discourage people from taking the initiative. I'll admit it's good to try to set the boundaries so people don't take the initiative too often on things that don't matter, but I think this is a thing that matters though. I've had coworkers that go above and beyond to make the workplace a pleasant place, and I really value it. Having that easily beats any other office perks and helps make everyone so much more productive. Shifting the topic a little: people on forums rarely ever ask for moderators, but people repeatedly choose well-moderated forums over ones that aren't. If a moderator complains about how much work it takes, then it's short-sighted to tell them that no one asked for it. Whether people realize it or not, people implicitly ask for it by choosing well-moderated places over others.
SolaceQuantum 7y ago
It sounds to me like the poster did the emotionally intelligent thing of reading a room and realizing a flame war was about to break out, and thus put in the labor to prevent it- which is a really normal thing for humans to do in social dynamics. It's literally a leadership quality. Later, this poster comments that it was emotionally exhausting- not a complaint, since I don't see them blaming anyone for their exhaustion besides themselves.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

tomp 7y ago

Surely you mean "emotional hobby" instead of "emotional labour"? After all, nobody paid you, nobody asked you to work, and I'm sure many didn't really appreciate your "work" and maybe even thought energy (both your own, and of all other 30 people) could more productively be spent doing other things. That's the whole problem with this idea. Proclamations of emotional "work" are actually just passive-aggressive pleas for others to affirm one's values. Well, people value different things, we might just need to accept that.

tenaciousDaniel 7y ago
And when this idea is discussed, it's talked about like it's some sort of societal issue. Ok so it's an issue...what's the solution? What should have happened in the above scenario that didn't? I really don't understand it. You dealt with something that weighed on you. Okay? Life can be like that sometimes. What an interesting revelation [rolls eyes].
- peterwwillis 7y ago
  You know how Japanese train conductors have that point-and-call system? Well what these discussions are about are like point-and-call. They're not pointing at the people on the track (society). They're pointing in directions, and at the train, and calling out what is happening. They're pointing out these things going on around them so that everyone is aware of them, so that people will think, act, and react. Hopefully, the end result is better overall outcomes. I think we still have a long way to go in figuring out how to have these discussions in a way that's more productive, but at least they're happening.
- sfink 7y ago
  ...it was a good example of the exact topic of the article? One that illustrated it in a way that was likely to be familiar to people here. Especially since it involved a common work situation rather than home life. If that's not worthy of posting in a comment thread, what is? Where is the implication that you have to pose - and maybe even solve! - some problem in order for your comment to be worth posting? Perhaps you are holding onto the definition the article is claiming is incorrect? Because that definition is associated with systemic issues. And your followup comment only makes sense to me in that light.

perl4ever 7y ago

It's so nice working in a (nearly) all female environment, where a person (woman) can refer to other people (women) as "you guys" and nobody bats an eye let alone starts long rancorous debates.

XorNot 7y ago

The downvoting on this anecdote is staggering.

sfink 7y ago

Great example of the original definition from TFA, thanks. I've found that people can usually relate to this sort of difficulty. If I said, "Phew! I just spent 3 hours keeping the coding style thread from getting out of hand." I think most people would understand. Many of us have been there.