5 ms·

> Especially in the context of FPGA tools that will only run on modern Linux, anyways... Right, annatar doesn't actually care that his "advice" here is complet

> Especially in the context of FPGA tools that will only run on modern Linux, anyways... Right, annatar doesn't actually care that his "advice" here is completely wrong and irrelevant. His only goal is to derail any useful discussion in order to point out how smart he is and how terrible any software that isn't included with solaris 8 is.

sitkack 7y ago
Lets be careful to no blame a specific person but recognize the general argument. There is a limitless supply of folks caught in the same loop.
- justinsaccount 7y ago
  Take a moment to view his comment history. You may need 'showdead' on.
- mlyle 7y ago
  It really looks like this guy is just a troll at this point. I have sympathies for the arguments. It's kinda unfortunate that Linux has taken over everything and we don't have real portable code anymore and other Unixes find themselves on the margins. x86, even x86-64 isn't really "clean". Way too much of the software ecosystem is willing to be on the bleeding edge. I worry we're losing core bits of Unix philosophy / simplicity as things evolve. Etc. If the arguments were completely untrue, they'd not find any purchase. But this guy is running around kicking the hornet's nest whenever possible.
  - justinsaccount 7y ago
    The sad thing is I generally support things like SmartOS. I have a SmartOS box at home. It's just that anytime SmartOS or anything like docker comes up on HN, annatar comes out of the woodwork to complain how shitty linux is without providing anything of value. A while back I even tried to encourage him to explain HOW zones are better with real examples instead of just shitting all over a how-to mentioning docker. He instead attacked me and said it wasn't his job to teach anyone anything. Awesome job, the only thing anyone learned from that thread was that SmartOS users are assholes. What's left of solaris is dying and he is helping in every way he can.
    - Annatar 7y ago
      "He instead attacked me and said it wasn't his job to teach anyone anything." Sad to read this after having taught so many information technology professionals over the three decades, some of them in the heart of Silicon Valley. What I probably told you is that I don't owe you anything, which is still true. You disrespected me and attacked me several times. Why should I teach you? As for the "what's left of Solaris is dying" "argument", I would be careful to make such statements, as they reek of casual usage: SmartOS isn't Linux; one deploys it because one has understood his advanced capabilities and features Linux doesn't have, to do a job and do it reliably and easier than with Linux, not because it's a good old buddies club where we comb our Ken and Barbie dolls and drink-pretend to have tea at 4 o' clock. If you want an echo chamber, stick with Linux; if you need to do a job, read the SmartOS manual pages, then come back with concrete questions. I'm not about fanboyism and casual usage, "community" and all that "Stack Overflow" nonsense. Now, with all of that out of the way: what do you need help with in SmartOS?
      - mlyle 7y ago
        It is dying, though. No one wants to be beholden to Oracle. Outside Oracle, the various efforts to use OpenSolaris derived stuff are constantly fragmented and overall shrinking in size. What little effort there is to improve things is often duplicative between the three+ branches of effort. Hardware support is more marginal than ever on OpenSolaris derived stuff. Less and less important software compiles under and works well under it, and it's getting harder and harder to run.
        Annatar 7y ago
        "What little effort there is to improve things is often duplicative between the three+ branches of effort." That's funny, because I'm on the mailing lists for illumos and SmartOS and I see that everything generally useful impemented in SmartOS ends up upstream in illumos. Do you have any evidence to support your claim? It's true that less and less software compiles on Solaris 10. I have to spend time patching badly written software to get it to compile. I have however not noticed any performance impact, on the contrary, that same software runs faster on Solaris 10 (and by extension illumos and therefore SmartOS) than on GNU/Linux where it has been developed, which is a slap in the face of GNU/Linux crowd hacking on that trash fire. SmartOS is a different story, completely different: they use pkgsrc and their library is 15,000+ packages. So the argument here is mis-information. Presumably, this is being done on purpose, "because Linux"?
  - Annatar 7y ago
    I am kicking the hornets' nest because IT is in a really bad shape because of the GNU/Linux monoculture and I want for things not only to change, but to effect change. GNU/Linux got to where it is by users bitching about how great it was for two decades, so the theory goes it should work for anything else, especially where that something else is superior. And also, I have no fear of hornets or their sting; I've been stung enough times. I have never cowered and I'm not about to start now. To add insult to injury, I am forced to work deep in the bowels of Linux and various GNU tools like GCC because of the current market conditions, so I get to "live the dream" every day. I want things to change, and I'm doing something about it, the best way I know how, which is by raising awareness, just like all the Linux people did back in the '90's and early 2000's.
    - mlyle 7y ago
      You're convincing people who would be otherwise sympathetic that your arguments have no merit, by spouting wrongness ("set -e" is a bashism!! Even though it appears in V7 unix and 3BSD!!) You can't even admit your mistake. I've loved Solaris, NetBSD, and Irix. ZFS is pretty cool. But it'd be pretty easy based on your posts to conclude that the only people who still advocate for that stuff are wrongheaded, pedantic curmudgeons.
      - Annatar 7y ago
        I never wrote set -e is bashism. I implied that people who use set -e will also write bashisms. Goodness knows I've had to fix enough of such garbage over the years to work with Solaris' /bin/sh and I'm revolted, sick and tired of it. In the meanwhile, notice how absolutely no one could explain what's wrong with || exit 1, other than it's "ugly" (which is a personal opinion, not a fact)? "You can't even admit your mistake." So let me get this straight: because I was wrong about set -e making one's program instantly unportable, my entire argument that SmartOS is a good, fast product is invalid? I guess the implication here is that because I was wrong about set -e making a shell program unportable, I am wrong about everything else, is that it?
        mlyle 7y ago
Annatar 7y ago
The discussion was just fine until someone suggested set -e claiming that || exit 1 is "harder to understand" and "ugly".
- mlyle 7y ago
  It was just fine until you imagined `set -e` as something unportable and a bashism, bro.
  - Annatar 7y ago
    set -e is not a bashism, but people who reach for it are extremely likely to write bash-only code. That's just been my experience. And I'm not your "bro".
    - mlyle 7y ago
      Cute backtracking. :) It's fun to watch you squirm and try and come up with a narrative where the laughable things you've said are justified. I've learnt a lot from you. The original Bourne shell didn't support set -e. set -e is a bashism. Depending on a posix shell is unreasonable. This has something to do with Linux. Wait, none of these things are true. > because on Solaris /bin/sh is the real McCoy - Steven Bourne's shell from 1972 - 1977. vs. v7 Linux from 1977-1978 including set -e. You're hilarious, bro.
      - Annatar 7y ago
        For all I know, you could have made all that shit up. I see no reason to believe you or trust what you wrote there. I know I got busted by set -e or else I wouldn't have brought it up. It's that simple and no amount of trolling me will change that. I don't have Alzheimer's just yet. And I'm not your "bro". Are you in need of an older brother so badly?
        mlyle 7y ago
        It's readily verified. I even pasted the original code, bro. Or you can login to a unixv7 system here, in browser: https://unix50.org/ https://unix50.org/ Takes 30 seconds.. Disabling XQ boot Boot : hp(0,0)unix mem = 2020544 # RESTRICTED RIGHTS: USE, DUPLICATION, OR DISCLOSURE IS SUBJECT TO RESTRICTIONS STATED IN YOUR CONTRACT WITH WESTERN ELECTRIC COMPANY, INC. WED DEC 31 19:15:05 EST 1969 login: root Password: You have mail. # set -e # true # false login:

sitkack 7y ago

Lets be careful to no blame a specific person but recognize the general argument. There is a limitless supply of folks caught in the same loop.

justinsaccount 7y ago
Take a moment to view his comment history. You may need 'showdead' on.
mlyle 7y ago
It really looks like this guy is just a troll at this point. I have sympathies for the arguments. It's kinda unfortunate that Linux has taken over everything and we don't have real portable code anymore and other Unixes find themselves on the margins. x86, even x86-64 isn't really "clean". Way too much of the software ecosystem is willing to be on the bleeding edge. I worry we're losing core bits of Unix philosophy / simplicity as things evolve. Etc. If the arguments were completely untrue, they'd not find any purchase. But this guy is running around kicking the hornet's nest whenever possible.
- justinsaccount 7y ago
  The sad thing is I generally support things like SmartOS. I have a SmartOS box at home. It's just that anytime SmartOS or anything like docker comes up on HN, annatar comes out of the woodwork to complain how shitty linux is without providing anything of value. A while back I even tried to encourage him to explain HOW zones are better with real examples instead of just shitting all over a how-to mentioning docker. He instead attacked me and said it wasn't his job to teach anyone anything. Awesome job, the only thing anyone learned from that thread was that SmartOS users are assholes. What's left of solaris is dying and he is helping in every way he can.
  - Annatar 7y ago
    "He instead attacked me and said it wasn't his job to teach anyone anything." Sad to read this after having taught so many information technology professionals over the three decades, some of them in the heart of Silicon Valley. What I probably told you is that I don't owe you anything, which is still true. You disrespected me and attacked me several times. Why should I teach you? As for the "what's left of Solaris is dying" "argument", I would be careful to make such statements, as they reek of casual usage: SmartOS isn't Linux; one deploys it because one has understood his advanced capabilities and features Linux doesn't have, to do a job and do it reliably and easier than with Linux, not because it's a good old buddies club where we comb our Ken and Barbie dolls and drink-pretend to have tea at 4 o' clock. If you want an echo chamber, stick with Linux; if you need to do a job, read the SmartOS manual pages, then come back with concrete questions. I'm not about fanboyism and casual usage, "community" and all that "Stack Overflow" nonsense. Now, with all of that out of the way: what do you need help with in SmartOS?
    - mlyle 7y ago
      It is dying, though. No one wants to be beholden to Oracle. Outside Oracle, the various efforts to use OpenSolaris derived stuff are constantly fragmented and overall shrinking in size. What little effort there is to improve things is often duplicative between the three+ branches of effort. Hardware support is more marginal than ever on OpenSolaris derived stuff. Less and less important software compiles under and works well under it, and it's getting harder and harder to run.
      - Annatar 7y ago
        "What little effort there is to improve things is often duplicative between the three+ branches of effort." That's funny, because I'm on the mailing lists for illumos and SmartOS and I see that everything generally useful impemented in SmartOS ends up upstream in illumos. Do you have any evidence to support your claim? It's true that less and less software compiles on Solaris 10. I have to spend time patching badly written software to get it to compile. I have however not noticed any performance impact, on the contrary, that same software runs faster on Solaris 10 (and by extension illumos and therefore SmartOS) than on GNU/Linux where it has been developed, which is a slap in the face of GNU/Linux crowd hacking on that trash fire. SmartOS is a different story, completely different: they use pkgsrc and their library is 15,000+ packages. So the argument here is mis-information. Presumably, this is being done on purpose, "because Linux"?
- Annatar 7y ago
  I am kicking the hornets' nest because IT is in a really bad shape because of the GNU/Linux monoculture and I want for things not only to change, but to effect change. GNU/Linux got to where it is by users bitching about how great it was for two decades, so the theory goes it should work for anything else, especially where that something else is superior. And also, I have no fear of hornets or their sting; I've been stung enough times. I have never cowered and I'm not about to start now. To add insult to injury, I am forced to work deep in the bowels of Linux and various GNU tools like GCC because of the current market conditions, so I get to "live the dream" every day. I want things to change, and I'm doing something about it, the best way I know how, which is by raising awareness, just like all the Linux people did back in the '90's and early 2000's.
  - mlyle 7y ago
    You're convincing people who would be otherwise sympathetic that your arguments have no merit, by spouting wrongness ("set -e" is a bashism!! Even though it appears in V7 unix and 3BSD!!) You can't even admit your mistake. I've loved Solaris, NetBSD, and Irix. ZFS is pretty cool. But it'd be pretty easy based on your posts to conclude that the only people who still advocate for that stuff are wrongheaded, pedantic curmudgeons.
    - Annatar 7y ago
      I never wrote set -e is bashism. I implied that people who use set -e will also write bashisms. Goodness knows I've had to fix enough of such garbage over the years to work with Solaris' /bin/sh and I'm revolted, sick and tired of it. In the meanwhile, notice how absolutely no one could explain what's wrong with || exit 1, other than it's "ugly" (which is a personal opinion, not a fact)? "You can't even admit your mistake." So let me get this straight: because I was wrong about set -e making one's program instantly unportable, my entire argument that SmartOS is a good, fast product is invalid? I guess the implication here is that because I was wrong about set -e making a shell program unportable, I am wrong about everything else, is that it?
      - mlyle 7y ago

Annatar 7y ago

The discussion was just fine until someone suggested set -e claiming that || exit 1 is "harder to understand" and "ugly".

mlyle 7y ago
It was just fine until you imagined `set -e` as something unportable and a bashism, bro.
- Annatar 7y ago
  set -e is not a bashism, but people who reach for it are extremely likely to write bash-only code. That's just been my experience. And I'm not your "bro".
  - mlyle 7y ago
    Cute backtracking. :) It's fun to watch you squirm and try and come up with a narrative where the laughable things you've said are justified. I've learnt a lot from you. The original Bourne shell didn't support set -e. set -e is a bashism. Depending on a posix shell is unreasonable. This has something to do with Linux. Wait, none of these things are true. > because on Solaris /bin/sh is the real McCoy - Steven Bourne's shell from 1972 - 1977. vs. v7 Linux from 1977-1978 including set -e. You're hilarious, bro.
    - Annatar 7y ago
      For all I know, you could have made all that shit up. I see no reason to believe you or trust what you wrote there. I know I got busted by set -e or else I wouldn't have brought it up. It's that simple and no amount of trolling me will change that. I don't have Alzheimer's just yet. And I'm not your "bro". Are you in need of an older brother so badly?
      - mlyle 7y ago
        It's readily verified. I even pasted the original code, bro. Or you can login to a unixv7 system here, in browser: https://unix50.org/ https://unix50.org/ Takes 30 seconds.. Disabling XQ boot Boot : hp(0,0)unix mem = 2020544 # RESTRICTED RIGHTS: USE, DUPLICATION, OR DISCLOSURE IS SUBJECT TO RESTRICTIONS STATED IN YOUR CONTRACT WITH WESTERN ELECTRIC COMPANY, INC. WED DEC 31 19:15:05 EST 1969 login: root Password: You have mail. # set -e # true # false login: