4 ms·

Stop with this free market nonsense. This is healthcare, this is real lives. It’s not the same as choosing which burger joint to patronize, it’s life and death.

AnthonyMouse 7y ago
> This is healthcare, this is real lives. It’s not the same as choosing which burger joint to patronize, it’s life and death. We're not talking about the life and death part though. There are already laws requiring emergency rooms to see anyone who shows up. The question is how to pay for it, which is a matter of economics. Medical providers not being able to provide the total cost for a non-emergency procedure up-front but then expecting people to pay whatever price they make up after the fact is practically fraud. The fact that it leads to outrageous costs is entirely predictable.
- pbourke 7y ago
  > Medical providers not being able to provide the total cost for a non-emergency procedure up-front but then expecting people to pay whatever price they make up after the fact is practically fraud. The fact that it leads to outrageous costs is entirely predictable. I’d like to turn the question around and ask folks who believe that the healthcare problem is one of not enough market freedom: what’s an example of a country that gets a free market in medical care right, from your perspective? We universal healthcare advocates have a couple of dozen examples lined up to support our perspective, what about from the other side?
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    The Netherlands and Switzerland both have functioning private insurance systems. There are also several functioning hybrid systems, like Germany and Israel. But the primary reason you don't see more successes is the lack of attempts. It's not as if there is a long list of countries with failed free market healthcare systems, either.
    - Aeolun 7y ago
      The Netherlands does not have a private health insurance scheme. Or rather, it does, but all the prices are basically fixed, and the biggest choice you have is whom you are paying money to. The services are ultimately much the same.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - Betelgeuse90 7y ago
      Here in Israel the majority of large health providers are essentially contractors, are largely indistinguishable and don't compete on price at all. Everybody pays a health tax as a percentage of their income. You don't have to pay anything aside from it, but if you want additional coverage like improved dental and discounts for non-essential medication, the best available coverage through the largest providers would cost you about $25 a month on top of the health tax. I don't know in what meaningful sense Israel is a "hybrid" system, it functions almost exactly like a 'Medicare for all' type proposal would.
    - Shacklz 7y ago
      Swiss here: Our health insurance providers might be privatized, but they're strongly regulated and every Swiss citizen must have healthcare. They do function, but not because of their free market incentives (my opinion), but because of strong regulations. Also, if there was a vote to go from public -> private insurers again (historically, they were public once), I think they'd stay public, because we're not really seeing the benefits of their privatization, only the downsides (tons of ads, calls, arcane coverage rules etc.)
novalis78 7y ago
The problem with avoiding market solutions to your problem is that many other areas of life could also make that argument "cell phones are needed to call the police, it's a matter of life and death, they should be free". "Houses keep people warm, they should not cost anything" etc. Reign in the cost of healthcare by allowing actual (cross state) competition and eliminate laws that give incumbents a free check. They should have to fight for your business as transparently and as hard as your tech company.
- Broken_Hippo 7y ago
  "cell phones are needed to call the police.." In the US, all cell phones with a charge can call the police (there are laws for this!) and there are programs to get free phones to those in danger. We already do this. "Houses keep people warm, they should not cost anything" etc." I'm not sure who is arguing this, but it isn't a stretch for folks to agree that everyone should have access to shelter, even if you cannot afford it. I personally wouldn't mind standard and basic housing being free (Small kitchen/living room, bathroom, and bedroom or bedrooms) I'd also point out that cross state competition would only help a little. Your laws need to be the same state to state, minimally, and most of the providers wouldn't change. Most insurance is provided through a job anyway, and I'd like to mention that most people's "tech company", besides social media, are ISP's with little to no competition.

AnthonyMouse 7y ago

> This is healthcare, this is real lives. It’s not the same as choosing which burger joint to patronize, it’s life and death. We're not talking about the life and death part though. There are already laws requiring emergency rooms to see anyone who shows up. The question is how to pay for it, which is a matter of economics. Medical providers not being able to provide the total cost for a non-emergency procedure up-front but then expecting people to pay whatever price they make up after the fact is practically fraud. The fact that it leads to outrageous costs is entirely predictable.

pbourke 7y ago
> Medical providers not being able to provide the total cost for a non-emergency procedure up-front but then expecting people to pay whatever price they make up after the fact is practically fraud. The fact that it leads to outrageous costs is entirely predictable. I’d like to turn the question around and ask folks who believe that the healthcare problem is one of not enough market freedom: what’s an example of a country that gets a free market in medical care right, from your perspective? We universal healthcare advocates have a couple of dozen examples lined up to support our perspective, what about from the other side?
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  The Netherlands and Switzerland both have functioning private insurance systems. There are also several functioning hybrid systems, like Germany and Israel. But the primary reason you don't see more successes is the lack of attempts. It's not as if there is a long list of countries with failed free market healthcare systems, either.
  - Aeolun 7y ago
    The Netherlands does not have a private health insurance scheme. Or rather, it does, but all the prices are basically fixed, and the biggest choice you have is whom you are paying money to. The services are ultimately much the same.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Betelgeuse90 7y ago
    Here in Israel the majority of large health providers are essentially contractors, are largely indistinguishable and don't compete on price at all. Everybody pays a health tax as a percentage of their income. You don't have to pay anything aside from it, but if you want additional coverage like improved dental and discounts for non-essential medication, the best available coverage through the largest providers would cost you about $25 a month on top of the health tax. I don't know in what meaningful sense Israel is a "hybrid" system, it functions almost exactly like a 'Medicare for all' type proposal would.
  - Shacklz 7y ago
    Swiss here: Our health insurance providers might be privatized, but they're strongly regulated and every Swiss citizen must have healthcare. They do function, but not because of their free market incentives (my opinion), but because of strong regulations. Also, if there was a vote to go from public -> private insurers again (historically, they were public once), I think they'd stay public, because we're not really seeing the benefits of their privatization, only the downsides (tons of ads, calls, arcane coverage rules etc.)

novalis78 7y ago

The problem with avoiding market solutions to your problem is that many other areas of life could also make that argument "cell phones are needed to call the police, it's a matter of life and death, they should be free". "Houses keep people warm, they should not cost anything" etc. Reign in the cost of healthcare by allowing actual (cross state) competition and eliminate laws that give incumbents a free check. They should have to fight for your business as transparently and as hard as your tech company.

Broken_Hippo 7y ago
"cell phones are needed to call the police.." In the US, all cell phones with a charge can call the police (there are laws for this!) and there are programs to get free phones to those in danger. We already do this. "Houses keep people warm, they should not cost anything" etc." I'm not sure who is arguing this, but it isn't a stretch for folks to agree that everyone should have access to shelter, even if you cannot afford it. I personally wouldn't mind standard and basic housing being free (Small kitchen/living room, bathroom, and bedroom or bedrooms) I'd also point out that cross state competition would only help a little. Your laws need to be the same state to state, minimally, and most of the providers wouldn't change. Most insurance is provided through a job anyway, and I'd like to mention that most people's "tech company", besides social media, are ISP's with little to no competition.