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My life was ruined by badly done, and even worse ultimately unneeded surgery. That privilege initially cost me many thousands, along with career and insurance g

My life was ruined by badly done, and even worse ultimately unneeded surgery. That privilege initially cost me many thousands, along with career and insurance going away, and the subsequent struggle to survive since has cost multiples of that. My entire future billed away. For a time I was able to avoid collectors because of a significant savings a frugal life had left me, but as time goes on you have to choose between medical care and other basic needs unless you want to go into a deep financial hole at a time you have MORE financial need like the people in this article. As a former provider, as a patient advocate and activist, and now as a person on the edge, I never saw anyone get out of that hole and it terrifies me every single day. I am constantly getting third and fourth party bills for huge amounts re things I did not consent to be sent away or billed externally. That's AFTER asking up front AND paying huge amounts for the primary service up front. These things come many months later and I can see one easily getting lost or not sent properly and me ending up in a massive legal battle over debt and summary judgements behind my back. Even with paranoid checking of old accounts and services they continue to mess it up and debts show up later. I was ruined by this country's medical business and ultimately it's going to be the cause of my death as I am at the limit of what I can handle in all regards. I tried to get out of the country for good to places I have lived and can get better healthcare, and have at least some quality of life with my remaining health and years, but ironically since I am so broken because of this experience it severely limits my options. I feel trapped and hopeless.

loceng 7y ago
Maybe post this on Reddit in /r/legaladvice - maybe there's a better subreddit - re: all of this? I have seen some seemingly helpful advice or links to resources that can help.
t34543 7y ago
Take your savings and move out of the country.
- hestipod 7y ago
  I lived abroad in the past. Had a much better life and healthcare. But now that savings is so small and my health so limited I cannot just "move". I wouldn't be able to sustain myself financially. There are immigration requirements I cannot meet. I would love nothing more to leave. But even then things are so bad with pain and health I would never have a good life, maybe just a survivable one in a more comfortable environment for me. But again, the consequences of what was done to me here has taken away the ability to immigrate as per usual. An amazing member of this site once offered to help me with his company abroad and I fought to make that happen but more and more health and financial issues kept hitting me and I couldn't make it happen. When even such an accommodative thing won't work out it robs you of all hope. Occasional rants, when energy and pain allows (the real killer), seem my only attribute at this point. The dying gasps of an angry man.
  - FDSGSG 7y ago
    This is only one problem of many, so I definitely don't expect pointing this out to do anything to change your situation. >There are immigration requirements I cannot meet If you could vastly improve your life by moving, why would you let immigration laws stop you? It's really hard to get kicked out of the EU and you shouldn't have any issues with access to healthcare in places like Catalonia, Helsinki and I'm sure many others.
    - hestipod 7y ago
      Answered above. I cannot work in any consistent and significant way and without enough money and legal status none of the things you have when ill are available. It's not just about a location. I can't live rough or in an unstable situation. It's also not hard at all to be deported.
PopeDotNinja 7y ago
Have you looked at bankruptcy options? Medical debt ruined my life. Bankruptcy got my life back.
- hestipod 7y ago
  I appreciate the advice. I may not have been clear in my rant but I am not in legal debt presently. If it were medical debt from a recoverable position and with support it would be a different story. I have skirted it by paying up front from savings or not seeking/getting care if it cost too much (a decision many have to make here) as I know in my condition and situation I would never recover once that happens. I will end things before that if faced with it. But conditions keep worsening making me fear that outcome. I was denied any governmental assistance even with lawyers and years of effort and my partial medical retirement pension has no medical insurance or benefits and isn't even enough for all needs itself, let alone extreme medical costs. I have been living with hyper-conservative family who have made things quite difficult for me, blaming me because my situation flies in the face of their beliefs, and that is coming to and end soon as I am blamed for their pre-existing 4th marriage issues being a convenient target. Basically once you are removed from the ability to control and maintain independent life, to the normal degree most can, and there is no support network or safety net to rely on, you are faced with hits from every side which amplify each other and no matter how hard you try and what you do the exponential weight is crushing. There just wasn't enough help from family or systems when it would have enabled me to recover, and now I will never recover and there is even less help, meaning none, to survive when you are dependent. Likely since I have to move, I will just pack up and go abroad by end of year with whats left, rent a tiny flat for as long as I can, and hope a miracle takes place somehow before I am forced to flip the switch off. I don't have the funds, health, or support to survive anywhere legally or continuously alone...but I refuse for my last breaths to be here. Sorry for the anger...cathartic dumping as I have no real ear to bend regularly. It's been a rough few decades ;)
  - PopeDotNinja 7y ago
    If you start looking at resources for digital nomads, you'll start seeing how people live abroad for cheap. Here's a recent video on living in Bankso, Bulgaria in an apartment for 150 Euro per month => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_w28W1_4PY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_w28W1_4PY. Combine that with some online work, maybe teaching English, and you could probably do OK.
spamizbad 7y ago
Stories like these are why I feel like the medical system in America is extremist, and not a rational, pragmatic, or effective system. We are like the North Korea of healthcare.
- ex3xu 7y ago
  Ironically, North Korea has a national health service and free universal health care for all its citizens. [0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_North_Korea#Health_infrastructure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_North_Korea#Heal...
  - refurb 7y ago
    Yes, but not sure to many Americans would be better off with the free heath care North Korea offers.
    - black_puppydog 7y ago
      actually, maybe read the linked paragraphs. from what I understand "many Americans" have basically no access to healthcare whatsoever (think homeless people for example) so your statement might not hold as tightly as you'd like...
      - roenxi 7y ago
        Propaganda from the North Koreans is worse than no evidence. We don't know what is going on there as it is absurdly unlikely that the NK government are providing honest statistics or allowing anyone to check what is happening. Cross-country comparisons are dicey at the best of times because a whole stack of basic cultural assumptions are violated. Unless there is a thriving medical tourism trade to NK it is unlikely that any American would benefit from copying North Korea. There is a long list of about about 150 countries that they could look to before even brushing against the idea of looking to North Korea for good ideas.
      - WillPostForFood 7y ago
hu3 7y ago
An extreme option to consider before the edge gets you: Move to another country. One that has free healthcare even to foreigners. Yes, they exist. Brazil is one. I'm not sure but I've heard Spain might too. Granted you wont get the best and most responsive health care in the world but at least you'll get some and for free. Things are different out there. Worse in some aspects, better in others. Just something to think about. Stay strong.
- hestipod 7y ago
  I've been trying to move back abroad since I returned to the USA. It's not as easy as people think in the best of times to immigrate, let alone when you are in such bad shape all around. No place takes broken and relatively broke people. Believe me I'd have been gone years ago if I could have managed it. I've thought about extreme ideas like asylum but my research shows it's never granted to people from such countries as mine and for such reasons. The system is taxed enough with war refugees and people even worse off. I'd happily trade passports with anyone who thinks this is the place to be. There is just not a clear path to a sustainable life anywhere now.
  - keiferski 7y ago
    Have you looked into working remotely and then moving somewhere like Argentina? They are very open to immigration and you can apply for citizenship after two years.
    - hestipod 7y ago
      I have. In fact the once in a lifetime offer I got from a member here, the only real help in all these years, was to work remotely and live in Europe. My only real friends are there and my previous doctors there were wonderful so that is the goal. But a (as usual) complicated health issue made doing that job and that time impossible for me and I hate every day that it might have been the last hope. My health keeps blocking things. I don't even know what I could do to earn at this point that I would be sure of being able to sustain. I cannot depend on my body for consistency unless that consistency is pain and weakness at varying levels and that's incompatible with your ability to live being linked with your ability to use said body consistently to work in trade for cash. Every time I invest in an idea with energy and money something else happens to crush it. I'd need years of physical, financial, and mental stability to even begin to recover some life and simply cannot start entirely over with no help like one can when they are young and healthy. I have no bootstraps in any sense of the word to pull on.
alistproducer2 7y ago
Im confused as to why you don't just walk away. After 7 years it will fall off your credit report and u can start over.
- hestipod 7y ago
  I don't have a financial strain bankruptcy would fix. I cannot walk away from current needs for medical care, housing, food etc. I am getting worse not better which equals more needs and cost with less to no resources. You cannot sign up for a post paid life in America and just ignore the costs. The featured article shows how that debt snowballs into worse issues. There won't be seven years in my future at this rate and no means to start over now let lone then. It's not a hiccup to get over nor some administrative issue to be worked around. The amount of "Why don't you just...." that I have heard over the years robs me of all hope. It's usually well meant and not malicious...but its never actionable or realistic and rather based in what people think it SHOULD work like or how it will be for them if they need it.
  - alistproducer2 7y ago
    Im sorry to hear about your situation. I asked the question because I have a family member who was in a similar situation to you and rather than make prudent choices, he made decisions based on pride and not wanting hand outs. Years later if cost him dearly. Not saying this js you, but I know there are people who pay debts because it's. "the right thing to do" without realizing it may be the worst thing to do for them in their situation.
    - hestipod 7y ago
      I apologize for any defensiveness. I am exhausted and tired of being in pain, poor, and alone. I am often criticized and blamed and it conditions you to expect bad from people. I try to stay aware many people mean well but sometimes I overreact. I avoided asking for help for a long time for the pride reasons you mentioned...hoping I could find a way...but once it became clear that wasn't going to happen and I did reach out it was denial and silence at every turn. In all these years only one person, a complete stranger, offered any real path, and like some perfect game some trickster god would design that path was blocked by outside forces as I took the first step on it. Seeing every system you trusted and all the people who promised you support deny you...and worse BLAME you...is soul crushing.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
"PSA:" It would be nice if HN did a better job of treating statements like this as testimony regarding the problem space and not an invitation for personal critique. The odds are extremely poor that some random internet stranger can fix a mess like this by making one good suggestion in a public comment. If you are genuinely willing to give someone like this scads of money or do a fundraiser (or otherwise actually try to help them in earnest), cool. But my experience suggests you probably aren't and multiple public personal questions easily comes across as invasive and blamey, especially for someone living with a lot of duress already.
- hestipod 7y ago
  While there is a lot of truth in what you say from my experience as well, and I can be defensive from all the disappointment and ineffective advice and often outright attack and blame over the years, I try to remember people mostly DO mean well and you never know when the right thing might hit. My only real chance in all these years came from a stranger speaking up. I've gotten some lovely messages of emotional support from a handful of people before as well. I'd rather people speak up than not personally...but yeah an effective solution would be ideal. I feel I am just too far in a hole for any standard ideas to work. If I was in a strongly social nation I'd be getting assistance no question. I can't survive in the Thunderdome in my situation.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    My comment explicitly allows for good faith interest in someone's situation. It's certainly not a suggestion that such comments shouldn't get engagement. It's possible to speak up and do so more considerately and thoughtfully than is typically done in response to such comments.
    - hestipod 7y ago
      I know...and thank you. I just wanted to be clear I am appreciative of empathetic and kind people. There is enough victim blaming and defensiveness from the masses in the world as it is...I don' want to alienate good people nor harm the acceptance and understanding for others in my situation by sounding ungrateful. For example I remember how grumpy and mean most older diabetics I worked with were and it wasn't because they were bad people, it's because they were worn out from suffering. But to most people they were just "jerks" who were choosing to be jerks.
mars4rp 7y ago
I know people in HN hate to talk about politics, but this is a political problem. People, please vote for medicare for all candidates, it might not affect your life now, but you don't know what the future holds for you.
- wdn 7y ago
  Medicare for all is not a solution. The solution is make health insurance act like insurance. Health service provider needs to post their price like all services and products. They need to compete for our business.
  - journalctl 7y ago
    Stop with this free market nonsense. This is healthcare, this is real lives. It’s not the same as choosing which burger joint to patronize, it’s life and death.
    - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
      > This is healthcare, this is real lives. It’s not the same as choosing which burger joint to patronize, it’s life and death. We're not talking about the life and death part though. There are already laws requiring emergency rooms to see anyone who shows up. The question is how to pay for it, which is a matter of economics. Medical providers not being able to provide the total cost for a non-emergency procedure up-front but then expecting people to pay whatever price they make up after the fact is practically fraud. The fact that it leads to outrageous costs is entirely predictable.
      - pbourke 7y ago
        > Medical providers not being able to provide the total cost for a non-emergency procedure up-front but then expecting people to pay whatever price they make up after the fact is practically fraud. The fact that it leads to outrageous costs is entirely predictable. I’d like to turn the question around and ask folks who believe that the healthcare problem is one of not enough market freedom: what’s an example of a country that gets a free market in medical care right, from your perspective? We universal healthcare advocates have a couple of dozen examples lined up to support our perspective, what about from the other side?
zaroth 7y ago
Some medical issues spontaneously present and you end up needing an emergency procedure and there’s very little you can do in that situation to control the costs. In the best case scenario, everything is considered in-network and you are on the hook for up to your annual maximum out of pocket expense. But for a condition where you can predict a short/medium term future which is going to involve being inundated with medical bills, one thing you absolutely must consider is whether working (earning money) is actually costing you more than not working. It’s going to vary dramatically depending on the state you live in (and that’s something you need to consider about where you decide to live) particularly if the state expanded Medicaid under ACA. In cases where there are massive predictable bills, earning a dollar more than the Medicaid eligibility threshold will likely cost you at least $10-$20k per year after tax, but in a failure mode could cost you much, much more. Not to mention there are no premiums - compared to potentially paying the full out of pocket maximum on top of full-bore monthly COBRA premiums after losing a job - if you don’t realize a better option is available. Getting income down, getting on Medicaid and SNAP, shelters you from any medical bills (you literally never see a bill on Medicaid, and can see a huge network of providers) and that peace of mind can help you focus on healing. In some states if a medical issue forces you to stop working you can also get short-term disability payments which are entirely tax free, and do not count toward Medicaid eligibility. It’s important to understand all the options that are possible and under what terms they are accessible, and be willing to do what’s necessary to get access to those benefits when your life depends on it.
newguy1234 7y ago
Now you know why people use cryptocurrencies. Can't be seized for medical debts or anything like that.
mcv 7y ago
> "things I did not consent to be sent away or billed externally." This may be the thing that most baffles me about this: how can you be held responsible for costs you never agreed to? Mysterious medical costs popping up that you were never aware of and never agreed to, sounds like a recipe for fraud and extortion.

loceng 7y ago

Maybe post this on Reddit in /r/legaladvice - maybe there's a better subreddit - re: all of this? I have seen some seemingly helpful advice or links to resources that can help.

t34543 7y ago

Take your savings and move out of the country.

hestipod 7y ago
I lived abroad in the past. Had a much better life and healthcare. But now that savings is so small and my health so limited I cannot just "move". I wouldn't be able to sustain myself financially. There are immigration requirements I cannot meet. I would love nothing more to leave. But even then things are so bad with pain and health I would never have a good life, maybe just a survivable one in a more comfortable environment for me. But again, the consequences of what was done to me here has taken away the ability to immigrate as per usual. An amazing member of this site once offered to help me with his company abroad and I fought to make that happen but more and more health and financial issues kept hitting me and I couldn't make it happen. When even such an accommodative thing won't work out it robs you of all hope. Occasional rants, when energy and pain allows (the real killer), seem my only attribute at this point. The dying gasps of an angry man.
- FDSGSG 7y ago
  This is only one problem of many, so I definitely don't expect pointing this out to do anything to change your situation. >There are immigration requirements I cannot meet If you could vastly improve your life by moving, why would you let immigration laws stop you? It's really hard to get kicked out of the EU and you shouldn't have any issues with access to healthcare in places like Catalonia, Helsinki and I'm sure many others.
  - hestipod 7y ago
    Answered above. I cannot work in any consistent and significant way and without enough money and legal status none of the things you have when ill are available. It's not just about a location. I can't live rough or in an unstable situation. It's also not hard at all to be deported.

PopeDotNinja 7y ago

Have you looked at bankruptcy options? Medical debt ruined my life. Bankruptcy got my life back.

hestipod 7y ago
I appreciate the advice. I may not have been clear in my rant but I am not in legal debt presently. If it were medical debt from a recoverable position and with support it would be a different story. I have skirted it by paying up front from savings or not seeking/getting care if it cost too much (a decision many have to make here) as I know in my condition and situation I would never recover once that happens. I will end things before that if faced with it. But conditions keep worsening making me fear that outcome. I was denied any governmental assistance even with lawyers and years of effort and my partial medical retirement pension has no medical insurance or benefits and isn't even enough for all needs itself, let alone extreme medical costs. I have been living with hyper-conservative family who have made things quite difficult for me, blaming me because my situation flies in the face of their beliefs, and that is coming to and end soon as I am blamed for their pre-existing 4th marriage issues being a convenient target. Basically once you are removed from the ability to control and maintain independent life, to the normal degree most can, and there is no support network or safety net to rely on, you are faced with hits from every side which amplify each other and no matter how hard you try and what you do the exponential weight is crushing. There just wasn't enough help from family or systems when it would have enabled me to recover, and now I will never recover and there is even less help, meaning none, to survive when you are dependent. Likely since I have to move, I will just pack up and go abroad by end of year with whats left, rent a tiny flat for as long as I can, and hope a miracle takes place somehow before I am forced to flip the switch off. I don't have the funds, health, or support to survive anywhere legally or continuously alone...but I refuse for my last breaths to be here. Sorry for the anger...cathartic dumping as I have no real ear to bend regularly. It's been a rough few decades ;)
- PopeDotNinja 7y ago
  If you start looking at resources for digital nomads, you'll start seeing how people live abroad for cheap. Here's a recent video on living in Bankso, Bulgaria in an apartment for 150 Euro per month => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_w28W1_4PY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_w28W1_4PY. Combine that with some online work, maybe teaching English, and you could probably do OK.

spamizbad 7y ago

Stories like these are why I feel like the medical system in America is extremist, and not a rational, pragmatic, or effective system. We are like the North Korea of healthcare.

ex3xu 7y ago
Ironically, North Korea has a national health service and free universal health care for all its citizens. [0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_North_Korea#Health_infrastructure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_North_Korea#Heal...
- refurb 7y ago
  Yes, but not sure to many Americans would be better off with the free heath care North Korea offers.
  - black_puppydog 7y ago
    actually, maybe read the linked paragraphs. from what I understand "many Americans" have basically no access to healthcare whatsoever (think homeless people for example) so your statement might not hold as tightly as you'd like...
    - roenxi 7y ago
      Propaganda from the North Koreans is worse than no evidence. We don't know what is going on there as it is absurdly unlikely that the NK government are providing honest statistics or allowing anyone to check what is happening. Cross-country comparisons are dicey at the best of times because a whole stack of basic cultural assumptions are violated. Unless there is a thriving medical tourism trade to NK it is unlikely that any American would benefit from copying North Korea. There is a long list of about about 150 countries that they could look to before even brushing against the idea of looking to North Korea for good ideas.
    - WillPostForFood 7y ago

hu3 7y ago

An extreme option to consider before the edge gets you: Move to another country. One that has free healthcare even to foreigners. Yes, they exist. Brazil is one. I'm not sure but I've heard Spain might too. Granted you wont get the best and most responsive health care in the world but at least you'll get some and for free. Things are different out there. Worse in some aspects, better in others. Just something to think about. Stay strong.

hestipod 7y ago
I've been trying to move back abroad since I returned to the USA. It's not as easy as people think in the best of times to immigrate, let alone when you are in such bad shape all around. No place takes broken and relatively broke people. Believe me I'd have been gone years ago if I could have managed it. I've thought about extreme ideas like asylum but my research shows it's never granted to people from such countries as mine and for such reasons. The system is taxed enough with war refugees and people even worse off. I'd happily trade passports with anyone who thinks this is the place to be. There is just not a clear path to a sustainable life anywhere now.
- keiferski 7y ago
  Have you looked into working remotely and then moving somewhere like Argentina? They are very open to immigration and you can apply for citizenship after two years.
  - hestipod 7y ago
    I have. In fact the once in a lifetime offer I got from a member here, the only real help in all these years, was to work remotely and live in Europe. My only real friends are there and my previous doctors there were wonderful so that is the goal. But a (as usual) complicated health issue made doing that job and that time impossible for me and I hate every day that it might have been the last hope. My health keeps blocking things. I don't even know what I could do to earn at this point that I would be sure of being able to sustain. I cannot depend on my body for consistency unless that consistency is pain and weakness at varying levels and that's incompatible with your ability to live being linked with your ability to use said body consistently to work in trade for cash. Every time I invest in an idea with energy and money something else happens to crush it. I'd need years of physical, financial, and mental stability to even begin to recover some life and simply cannot start entirely over with no help like one can when they are young and healthy. I have no bootstraps in any sense of the word to pull on.

alistproducer2 7y ago

Im confused as to why you don't just walk away. After 7 years it will fall off your credit report and u can start over.

hestipod 7y ago
I don't have a financial strain bankruptcy would fix. I cannot walk away from current needs for medical care, housing, food etc. I am getting worse not better which equals more needs and cost with less to no resources. You cannot sign up for a post paid life in America and just ignore the costs. The featured article shows how that debt snowballs into worse issues. There won't be seven years in my future at this rate and no means to start over now let lone then. It's not a hiccup to get over nor some administrative issue to be worked around. The amount of "Why don't you just...." that I have heard over the years robs me of all hope. It's usually well meant and not malicious...but its never actionable or realistic and rather based in what people think it SHOULD work like or how it will be for them if they need it.
- alistproducer2 7y ago
  Im sorry to hear about your situation. I asked the question because I have a family member who was in a similar situation to you and rather than make prudent choices, he made decisions based on pride and not wanting hand outs. Years later if cost him dearly. Not saying this js you, but I know there are people who pay debts because it's. "the right thing to do" without realizing it may be the worst thing to do for them in their situation.
  - hestipod 7y ago
    I apologize for any defensiveness. I am exhausted and tired of being in pain, poor, and alone. I am often criticized and blamed and it conditions you to expect bad from people. I try to stay aware many people mean well but sometimes I overreact. I avoided asking for help for a long time for the pride reasons you mentioned...hoping I could find a way...but once it became clear that wasn't going to happen and I did reach out it was denial and silence at every turn. In all these years only one person, a complete stranger, offered any real path, and like some perfect game some trickster god would design that path was blocked by outside forces as I took the first step on it. Seeing every system you trusted and all the people who promised you support deny you...and worse BLAME you...is soul crushing.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

"PSA:" It would be nice if HN did a better job of treating statements like this as testimony regarding the problem space and not an invitation for personal critique. The odds are extremely poor that some random internet stranger can fix a mess like this by making one good suggestion in a public comment. If you are genuinely willing to give someone like this scads of money or do a fundraiser (or otherwise actually try to help them in earnest), cool. But my experience suggests you probably aren't and multiple public personal questions easily comes across as invasive and blamey, especially for someone living with a lot of duress already.

hestipod 7y ago
While there is a lot of truth in what you say from my experience as well, and I can be defensive from all the disappointment and ineffective advice and often outright attack and blame over the years, I try to remember people mostly DO mean well and you never know when the right thing might hit. My only real chance in all these years came from a stranger speaking up. I've gotten some lovely messages of emotional support from a handful of people before as well. I'd rather people speak up than not personally...but yeah an effective solution would be ideal. I feel I am just too far in a hole for any standard ideas to work. If I was in a strongly social nation I'd be getting assistance no question. I can't survive in the Thunderdome in my situation.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  My comment explicitly allows for good faith interest in someone's situation. It's certainly not a suggestion that such comments shouldn't get engagement. It's possible to speak up and do so more considerately and thoughtfully than is typically done in response to such comments.
  - hestipod 7y ago
    I know...and thank you. I just wanted to be clear I am appreciative of empathetic and kind people. There is enough victim blaming and defensiveness from the masses in the world as it is...I don' want to alienate good people nor harm the acceptance and understanding for others in my situation by sounding ungrateful. For example I remember how grumpy and mean most older diabetics I worked with were and it wasn't because they were bad people, it's because they were worn out from suffering. But to most people they were just "jerks" who were choosing to be jerks.

mars4rp 7y ago

I know people in HN hate to talk about politics, but this is a political problem. People, please vote for medicare for all candidates, it might not affect your life now, but you don't know what the future holds for you.

wdn 7y ago
Medicare for all is not a solution. The solution is make health insurance act like insurance. Health service provider needs to post their price like all services and products. They need to compete for our business.
- journalctl 7y ago
  Stop with this free market nonsense. This is healthcare, this is real lives. It’s not the same as choosing which burger joint to patronize, it’s life and death.
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    > This is healthcare, this is real lives. It’s not the same as choosing which burger joint to patronize, it’s life and death. We're not talking about the life and death part though. There are already laws requiring emergency rooms to see anyone who shows up. The question is how to pay for it, which is a matter of economics. Medical providers not being able to provide the total cost for a non-emergency procedure up-front but then expecting people to pay whatever price they make up after the fact is practically fraud. The fact that it leads to outrageous costs is entirely predictable.
    - pbourke 7y ago
      > Medical providers not being able to provide the total cost for a non-emergency procedure up-front but then expecting people to pay whatever price they make up after the fact is practically fraud. The fact that it leads to outrageous costs is entirely predictable. I’d like to turn the question around and ask folks who believe that the healthcare problem is one of not enough market freedom: what’s an example of a country that gets a free market in medical care right, from your perspective? We universal healthcare advocates have a couple of dozen examples lined up to support our perspective, what about from the other side?

zaroth 7y ago

Some medical issues spontaneously present and you end up needing an emergency procedure and there’s very little you can do in that situation to control the costs. In the best case scenario, everything is considered in-network and you are on the hook for up to your annual maximum out of pocket expense. But for a condition where you can predict a short/medium term future which is going to involve being inundated with medical bills, one thing you absolutely must consider is whether working (earning money) is actually costing you more than not working. It’s going to vary dramatically depending on the state you live in (and that’s something you need to consider about where you decide to live) particularly if the state expanded Medicaid under ACA. In cases where there are massive predictable bills, earning a dollar more than the Medicaid eligibility threshold will likely cost you at least $10-$20k per year after tax, but in a failure mode could cost you much, much more. Not to mention there are no premiums - compared to potentially paying the full out of pocket maximum on top of full-bore monthly COBRA premiums after losing a job - if you don’t realize a better option is available. Getting income down, getting on Medicaid and SNAP, shelters you from any medical bills (you literally never see a bill on Medicaid, and can see a huge network of providers) and that peace of mind can help you focus on healing. In some states if a medical issue forces you to stop working you can also get short-term disability payments which are entirely tax free, and do not count toward Medicaid eligibility. It’s important to understand all the options that are possible and under what terms they are accessible, and be willing to do what’s necessary to get access to those benefits when your life depends on it.

newguy1234 7y ago

Now you know why people use cryptocurrencies. Can't be seized for medical debts or anything like that.

mcv 7y ago

> "things I did not consent to be sent away or billed externally." This may be the thing that most baffles me about this: how can you be held responsible for costs you never agreed to? Mysterious medical costs popping up that you were never aware of and never agreed to, sounds like a recipe for fraud and extortion.